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GMC Forum _ THEORY _ Modes 101

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Apr 6 2007, 10:43 PM

Modes - The Theory


Introduction

In the http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=5012 we described what modes are, and a practical way of diving into them. However, modes are a complex subject, and the theoretical underpinnings are fascinating. Once you thoroughly understand the previous lesson, spending some time here can really help you with concepts all across music. So now we know what modes are, lets see what they mean in theory terms and how they were generated in the first place.

How Do We Generate Modes?

We're going to start out by listing all of the modes of the Major scale, along with their formulae - look closely, there may be questions ...



I have also included a column called "scale degree" - this will become clear soon.

The first thing I hope you spotted was that the Ionian mode has an identical formula to the Major scale. (See, I told you you were already using modes!). Yes, that's right, the Ionian mode is another name for the Major scale.

Next, although we haven't had a lesson on minor scales yet, you may have spotted that the Aeolian mode has the same formula as the Natural minor scale ... yes, that's right, you already know the Aeolian mode because it is identical to the Natural minor scale! So we've learnt 2 modes already without trying.

Interesting though that is, the real lesson here is that there is a pattern in each of the successive modes (I have listed them in this order deliberately). With a little more examination you will see that for each successive mode's formula, we take off the first letter, move the rest of the letters along and put the first letter on the end.

This gives us a practical way to generate the modes of a scale, based on a techniques of moving through the notes of a scale. The rule is this:

Pick a major scale. To generate each mode, you move through the notes of the scale, up to the degree listed above for that mode, then play through the scale, starting on that note, but playing notes from the original scale. What this does is two things. First, it shifts the root note from the Major scale root note, to the note that is the degree of the scale to which we have moved. Secondly, since we are starting some of the way through the scale it also shifts the spacing of tones and semi-tones (T & S) into a different relationship, as reflected by the formulae for each mode that I gave you above.

That's a bit of a mouthful, so lets look at an example - the modes of the C Major scale. Notes in C major are C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C - here is one of the CAGED shapes for C Major:



Our first mode is the Ionian, which is the Major scale itself, lets ignore that for now, no explanations should be necessary. Instead, lets look at the Dorian mode. The Dorian mode is mode 2, so we generate the unique formula for Dorian by moving up a degree to D, and playing the notes out of the C Major scale, which would be D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D - it would look like this:



Since we started on D, we would call this "D Dorian", and you'll notice that although we are using the scale of C Major to select our notes, we have ended up with a scale with a root note of D, which you should take into account when writing songs around this mode.

If you want to turn this around and for instance find the notes in a specific key such as "C Dorian" you need to work backwards. What scale has the note C as its second degree? The answer is Bb, here:



So to figure out a C Dorian scale you would look at the notes in the key of Bb, which are Bb,C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb. Applying our rule and starting on the second degree ( C ) we get our C Dorian scale as C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb,C



When doing it this way around, you must also take account of the fact that different modes have different characteristic chords that fit with them. So for instance, Dorian mode has a Minor 7th feel to it - if you move from C Major to C Dorian, you are also moving from Major to Minor. Modes are characterised ad Major or Minor based on the interval between the 1st and 3rd notes. Not surprisingly, if the interval is a minor 3rd, the mode is characterised as minor, if its a major 3rd, it is characterised as major.

So you see we can work it both ways, going from a scale to a mode, or from a mode to a scale, and of course with practice you won't need to figure the notes out at all, you will just think "Dorian" and your fingers will play it - but that's a LOT of practice by the way!

You can use the same principle above to figure out the notes for any of the modes listed. Its also important to point out that for every mode, we are using the notes out of a major scale, just with a displaced root note, so learning modes is simply a case of re-using the major scale shapes you already know, and altering where you place the root note of that scale in the pattern. This means that you from the CAGED system you have 5 options for playing each of the modes.

Again, What exactly is a Mode?

So when all is said and done, is a Mode a specific pattern of notes, or just a scale played up a few notes?

People disagree on this - my answer to that question is that they are both. The essence of what a mode is, is the Tone/Semi-tone formula you use to construct it - Dorian is Dorian no matter what key it is played in, its the relationship of the notes that counts. But the selection and structuring of modes is done by an orderly progression through the scale you are generating the modes from. You'll notice that we have picked only 7 of the possible combinations of tones and semi-tones - others are possible, but that moves us into the realms of new scales. Modes of scales are strictly generated in the way I have described using movement through the degrees of the scale to generate the formulae for each.

Is That All There is to Modes?

Well we have really just scratched the surface of modes here, but by the time we have covered all of the modes listed above in more detail you will have learnt pretty much everything that most people mean when they talk about modes.

To be accurate, what we have discussed here are the Major Modes, meaning the modes generated from a Major scale. It is actually possible to generate modes from any scale at all though. So for instance, there are modes of the Pentatonic scale, Harmonic Minor scale, Melodic Minor scale and so on. Notice I didn't mention the Natural Minor scale here - although we use it a lot and call it a scale, a more accurate way of looking at the natural minor scale is as a mode of the Major scale (the Aeolian).

If you want to look at other modes (and there are some pretty obscure ones!) I suggest you buy a reference book such as The Guitar Grimoire: A compendium of Formulas for Guitar Scales and Modes. The techniques for mode construction remain the same no matter what scale you use, but sometimes its easier to look them up than to figure them out yourself.

That's it for this lesson. In the following lessons we are going to take a tour through the modes, look at example scales and discus chord voicings.

If you have any questions you know where I am!

Once again, thanks to Tank for proofreading!

Posted by: radarlove1984 Apr 7 2007, 02:47 AM

Great lesson. I knew a little about modes already, but I've been generating them from the 3 note per string major scale, and it never really "clicked" until I saw your scale diagrams.

The pattern's pretty obvious now. Thanks.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Apr 7 2007, 03:43 PM

QUOTE (radarlove1984 @ Apr 6 2007, 09:47 PM) *
Great lesson. I knew a little about modes already, but I've been generating them from the 3 note per string major scale, and it never really "clicked" until I saw your scale diagrams.

The pattern's pretty obvious now. Thanks.


Hi Radarlove - I can always count on you to read these things - glad it helped some.

Eventually I want to write a lesson on 3 note per string scales, including all of the modes.

Posted by: Tank Apr 8 2007, 10:40 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Apr 7 2007, 03:43 PM) *
Hi Radarlove - I can always count on you to read these things - glad it helped some.

Eventually I want to write a lesson on 3 note per string scales, including all of the modes.


Hiya andrew, I've got one of those somewhere. I'm pretty sure I posted it on the old forum. PM me, and I'll try and find the topic, you can scavenge what you need from it.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Apr 8 2007, 03:06 PM

QUOTE (Tank @ Apr 8 2007, 05:40 AM) *
Hiya andrew, I've got one of those somewhere. I'm pretty sure I posted it on the old forum. PM me, and I'll try and find the topic, you can scavenge what you need from it.


Thanks again Tank, I'll drop you a line when I'm ready!

Posted by: crabman Apr 10 2007, 08:13 AM

Thanks Andrew. Good stuff, keep it coming

Posted by: Anastasio123 Apr 15 2007, 04:12 AM

Wow its amazing how easy modes really are to understand if you just read a nice clear description like this. Beforehand, they made my head hurt and I thought they were so intimidating. Thanks Andrew, this lesson really made me see the light...

Posted by: Melinda Apr 15 2007, 06:38 PM

wink.gif awsome Andrew, this makes sense

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Apr 15 2007, 09:32 PM

Thanks all of you - glad you find it helpful, I'll keep 'em coming I promise.

Posted by: Pavel May 11 2007, 02:26 PM

Ok i just found some time to sit and read this - this explanation is as easy as possible! Awesome work Andrew!

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn May 11 2007, 02:33 PM

QUOTE (Pavel @ May 11 2007, 09:26 AM) *
Ok i just found some time to sit and read this - this explanation is as easy as possible! Awesome work Andrew!


Thanks Pavel - that means a lot coming from you!

Posted by: Rockwouldbe May 11 2007, 03:08 PM

hey andrew do you think

you can add all the chords you use

for example

mixloydien-----7'th chords (the first chord)

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn May 11 2007, 04:17 PM

QUOTE (Rockwouldbe @ May 11 2007, 10:08 AM) *
hey andrew do you think

you can add all the chords you use

for example

mixloydien-----7'th chords (the first chord)


Hi Rockwouldbe - that's a great suggestion - I'll be sure to discuss the chords in detail when I go through each of the modes in parts 2 and 3 smile.gif

Posted by: Bitey May 15 2007, 05:10 PM

So Semi tones or S are like A# or Bb and T are whole notes like C D E G A B? Am I getting this right that to do a dorian pattern you just make a pattern with the S and T's? If this makes any sense.

Posted by: Kaneda May 15 2007, 07:45 PM

QUOTE (Bitey @ May 15 2007, 06:10 PM) *
So Semi tones or S are like A# or Bb and T are whole notes like C D E G A B? Am I getting this right that to do a dorian pattern you just make a pattern with the S and T's? If this makes any sense.


No, Andrew's formulae don't tell you (directly) what notes to pick. Rather, they tell you, for each of the modes, if you pick a starting note, how big is the gap before the next note? I'll try to explain it in different words. This illustration may (or may not) help:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43664686@N00/499739287/

Look at the list of note names in the middle (ignore the blue/black colors for now). That's all 12 notes in the western music system listed in ascending order (there's 13 names in the list, because I repeated the "C" at the end).

To the left, I wrote the size of the gap between each of those notes. Notice that the gap between two adjacent notes is always a semitone - between C and C#, but also between E and F (there's no E# - not for our purposes here, at least).

So, the gap between D and G is 5 semitones (count them). The gap between F# and G# is 2 semitones. 2 Semitones = a Tone ("semi" means "half").

So, when Andrew writes S, he means "a gap of 1 Semitone". When he writes T, he means "a gap of 2 Semitones" (or put differently, "a gap of 1 Tone").

Now, let's find the notes of the C dorian scale. A dorian scale, as Andrew's formulae shows, is made up by the following gaps between notes: T S T T T S T.

If we want to make C dorian, we start on C.

Now, look at the image again. On the right, I've written in the gaps - Tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone, tone. So, we start from C, go up a tone to D, then a semitone to D#/Eb, then a tone to F etc. The blue note names show what we end up with for the C dorian scale:

C D Eb F G A Bb C

(Side note: We could write it C D D# F G A A# C, but a basic rule of diatonic scales ("diatonic scales" is basically a fancy name for all the scales you can create this way - musicians love code) is that the note names should be picked in a way so that no letter appears twice - in our case, "D" appears again in D#, and "A" appears again in A#, so we pick the "alternate names" (the flats), so each letter appears only once).

That's how you make C dorian. To make D dorian, you just start out from D instead of C, but use the same gaps. That should give you:
D E F G A B C D

By "coincidence" this one has no sharps or flats - it's the same notes as C major, only starting from D, as Andrew explained.

To make C major (Ionian is the major scale), you start out from C, then use the gaps (from Andrew's formulae) for the Ionian mode: T T S T T T S. That yields:

C D E F G A B C

To make C natural minor (also known as Aeolian mode), we use the gaps for Aeolian mode, and start from C: T S T T S T T

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

etc.

Hope that helped. Otherwise, ask again wink.gif

And maybe try to pick a mode and a starting note, and see if you can build the mode, then post it here smile.gif

Posted by: sillyman May 27 2007, 09:37 PM

I understand the theory behind the modes but i don't see the point because you're still playing the same notes, how much of a difference do these modes actually make

Posted by: Pavel May 27 2007, 10:13 PM

To be honest - that's a very good question Sillyman because i have always been asking same thing!! Andrew - any help here?

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn May 27 2007, 10:57 PM

QUOTE (Pavel @ May 27 2007, 05:13 PM) *
To be honest - that's a very good question Sillyman because i have always been asking same thing!! Andrew - any help here?


Well you aren't really playing the same notes ...

If you look at C major, then D dorian, well yes they DO share the same notes, but you are comparing apples with oranges because they should be treated as different keys.

You should be comparing for instance C Major with C dorian to really get the feel of how modes change the flavour of what you are playing. Look at the modes for the key of C:

C Major : C,D,E,F,G,A,B
C Dorian : C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb
C Phrygian : C,Db,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb
C Lydian : C,D,E,F#,G,A,B
C Mixolydian : C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb
C Aelian : C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb
C Lcrian : C,Db,Eb,F,Gb,Ab,Bb

If you switch between those scales you will get a very different feel ... some are major some are minor, they all have additional quirky notes that give them character.

The trick here is to not focus on how the modes are generated (by stepping up through the scale and playing each mode starting on a new note), you should focus on how the modes of a given key (in this case C) relate to each other, then you will start to understand the differences.

Does that help?

Posted by: Pavel May 27 2007, 11:14 PM

oh ok i got it now! So it's actually like - C-Dorian over a C-Major chord would be like playing Bb-Major scale notes over C-Major chord but starting with C, right?

Starting to have sense now.... that scale than has different position of halfsteps... ok, thanks a lot!

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn May 28 2007, 12:34 AM

QUOTE (Pavel @ May 27 2007, 06:14 PM) *
oh ok i got it now! So it's actually like - C-Dorian over a C-Major chord would be like playing Bb-Major scale notes over C-Major chord but starting with C, right?

Starting to have sense now.... that scale than has different position of halfsteps... ok, thanks a lot!


Exactly smile.gif

Posted by: sillyman Jun 7 2007, 08:48 PM

ah my toroise brain has finally caught up thanks andy

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jun 7 2007, 09:12 PM

QUOTE (sillyman @ Jun 7 2007, 03:48 PM) *
ah my toroise brain has finally caught up thanks andy


smile.gif Hope it all makes sense now ...

Posted by: DeepRoots Jun 25 2007, 10:46 PM

Hey Andrew just a quick one- would it be practical to change from say E minor to E phrygian (for example) in a song/solo to add some spice or should it be strictly over a phrygian progression (or whatever mode your using). Or...Using E minor would i have to switch to a B Phrygian progression to get the "Phrygian Sound"

Thanks

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jun 25 2007, 11:19 PM

QUOTE (DeepRoots @ Jun 25 2007, 05:46 PM) *
Hey Andrew just a quick one- would it be practical to change from say E minor to E phrygian (for example) in a song/solo to add some spice or should it be strictly over a phrygian progression (or whatever mode your using). Or...Using E minor would i have to switch to a B Phrygian progression to get the "Phrygian Sound"

Thanks


You can do either:

Changing from E minor (Aeolian) to E phyrgian would probably work, but they would need a different chord sequence unless you chose your chords carefully. They are somewhat compatible both being minor in nature. This would be a truly modal change.

Or you could move to the relative phrygian of E Aeolian which is B as you said - then you would be using the phrygian in passing, which would give you a flavour of it, but you would still be using the same notes and same chords.

Posted by: Ryan Jun 29 2007, 04:33 AM

Wow, I understand now. I have seen the light biggrin.gif. I learned the whole C Major Scale. And then wow. I now understand modes. Well not all of it, but wow!! laugh.gif

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jun 29 2007, 01:18 PM

QUOTE (Ryan @ Jun 28 2007, 11:33 PM) *
Wow, I understand now. I have seen the light biggrin.gif. I learned the whole C Major Scale. And then wow. I now understand modes. Well not all of it, but wow!! laugh.gif


Great smile.gif

Posted by: kjutte Jul 18 2007, 05:25 PM

I was thinking about this last night. I realized I hadn't been playing all the modes, I have been playing Eminor all the damn time! E minor won't give you G Ionian, as I thought, but E Ionian! THANKS GUITAR MASTERCLASS!

Posted by: Blairkelley Feb 11 2008, 05:39 PM

It appears that in the first lesson, we were to remember the particular formula for each mode in the scale. But it in the second lesson, it's shown that they relate to another scale, ie. C dorian is Bb major with a different root note or C mixolydian is F major with C root. So when playing modes should I always go to the corresponding major scale?

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Feb 11 2008, 06:13 PM

QUOTE (Blairkelley @ Feb 11 2008, 11:39 AM) *
It appears that in the first lesson, we were to remember the particular formula for each mode in the scale. But it in the second lesson, it's shown that they relate to another scale, ie. C dorian is Bb major with a different root note or C mixolydian is F major with C root. So when playing modes should I always go to the corresponding major scale?


Thats really just 2 different ways of answering the same question - if you go to the correct box of the major scale (adjusting the root note appropriately) you will see that the scale then has the formula I gave you for each mode.

The key here is to understand that when selecting the appropriate major scale you then have to change the root note to suit the mode you are using. For example, if you want to play D Dorian, you can use the C major scale pattern you are used to, but start the scale on the D note not the C note. If you do this, the forumla will automatically take care of itself smile.gif

Posted by: Blairkelley Feb 11 2008, 08:12 PM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 11 2008, 01:13 PM) *
Thats really just 2 different ways of answering the same question - if you go to the correct box of the major scale (adjusting the root note appropriately) you will see that the scale then has the formula I gave you for each mode.

The key here is to understand that when selecting the appropriate major scale you then have to change the root note to suit the mode you are using. For example, if you want to play D Dorian, you can use the C major scale pattern you are used to, but start the scale on the D note not the C note. If you do this, the forumla will automatically take care of itself smile.gif


Thanks, great lesson.

Posted by: FretDancer69 Feb 12 2008, 05:24 AM

Great lesson Andrew. I didnt understsand much the parts where you showed the diagrams, but ill re-read that tomorrow. Just one quick question:

Is the Harmonic Minor scale a mode? if not, why not? It has a sharpened 7th. A Phrygian has a flattened 2nd, why cant the Harmonic Minor scale be counted as a mode (if its not that is)?

Thanks, and great lesson btw!!

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Feb 12 2008, 11:28 PM

Harmonic minor is not mode of the major scale - its as simple as that! A mode isn;t just a scale that differs from another by one note, you generate them in the way described above by moving through the scale and changing the root note. If you do that, at no point do you get a harmonic minor scale so it is not a mode of the major scale.

Now, in a more general sense, Harmonic minor is a mode - it is Mode I of the harmopnic minor scale. Just like the major scale, the harmonic minor scale has its own set of modes generated in the exact same way, for instance, Phrygian Dominant is mode V of the Harmonic minor scale.

Posted by: FretDancer69 Feb 13 2008, 12:45 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 12 2008, 04:28 PM) *
Harmonic minor is not mode of the major scale - its as simple as that! A mode isn;t just a scale that differs from another by one note, you generate them in the way described above by moving through the scale and changing the root note. If you do that, at no point do you get a harmonic minor scale so it is not a mode of the major scale.

Now, in a more general sense, Harmonic minor is a mode - it is Mode I of the harmopnic minor scale. Just like the major scale, the harmonic minor scale has its own set of modes generated in the exact same way, for instance, Phrygian Dominant is mode V of the Harmonic minor scale.


ohmy.gif oh i see. Ok, thanks Andrew.

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 13 2008, 07:08 AM

These lessons are awesome Andrew!
And I would recommend everyone to practice Wallimann's "Learning the Modes" lesson.
In that lesson he is actually playing what Andrew is saying:
he goes through all the modes starting from the same root note.
You'll understand that modes are different scales
and not just scales you already know with a different root note,
and how different they sound.

Andrew, this theory board is incredible,
and I also think that you have a great taste in playing.

All the best, Eddie

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Feb 14 2008, 12:59 AM

Thanks Eddie, its great that you like my lessons, and even my playing smile.gif

You are absolutely right - Dave's lessons are an essential way to cement this theory into your playing, I practice that one a lot myself.

Posted by: Qube Jun 16 2008, 02:46 PM

Thanks, finally I understand this! smile.gif

Posted by: Nighthawk Jul 30 2008, 05:19 PM

Hey guys I please need help with that topic because I am still stuck at one point which concerns generating the modes.
I understood the one direction but not the other. Play the D-Mixolydian Scale !
Ok, for that I have to ask myself which scale has D as it's fifth degree - if I find this out I know that I have to play this scale just beginning from the 5th note right?
And here I am stuck...if I have D how do I get the Major Scale then....on which scale do I have to count backwards ? Sure on the D mixolydian scale but I don't know what the D mixolydianScale is yet at this moment and the whole reason of counting back was to find that out in the first place...Do you get me? I am confused...please help unsure.gif
Or do I really have to learn the intervals of the modes by heart? I thought I didn't have to do that because of this detour of "what scale has D as is 5th degree" question.

Posted by: DeepRoots Jul 30 2008, 05:29 PM

I reccomend you learn the intervals of each mode- and not just treat them as "starting from the 5th note" of the "parent" scale.

Learning the intervals will help you understand how each mode differs from the other- and therefore give you some idea of which are interchangable in certain soloing situations.

Also, learn the patterns. You can get the 3 notes per string patterns from part 2 of my lesson in my signature.

Posted by: kjutte Jul 30 2008, 05:29 PM

QUOTE (Nighthawk @ Jul 30 2008, 06:19 PM) *
Hey guys I please need help with that topic because I am still stuck at one point which concerns generating the modes.
I understood the one direction but not the other. Play the D-Mixolydian Scale !
Ok, for that I have to ask myself which scale has D as it's fifth degree - if I find this out I know that I have to play this scale just beginning from the 5th note right?
And here I am stuck...if I have D how do I get the Major Scale then....on which scale do I have to count backwards ? Sure on the D mixolydian scale but I don't know what the D mixolydianScale is yet at this moment and the whole reason of counting back was to find that out in the first place...Do you get me? I am confused...please help unsure.gif
Or do I really have to learn the intervals of the modes by heart? I thought I didn't have to do that because of this detour of "what scale has D as is 5th degree" question.


Well, the easiest way to start off with is to learn all the 7 boxes of the majorscale. then you'll also know that mixo is equal to the major pattern, but has a flat7th. That's why it's dominant, because of the major 3rd and minor 7th.

ANYWAY, yes, it's another startingpoint.
In D Mixo you'll start off in the 5th degree of the majorscale. HOWEVER, since it's in mixo, this will actually be the first degree.
That means that the chord progression also changes.

SO, to play in true mixo, you'd do like this for example.

C7 Dmin Edim Fmaj Gmin Amin Bbmaj C7.
You see, the progression changes.

In Ionian the progression would be maj, min min maj maj min dim, however in mixo, you see it's maj (or dominant if you add a seventh) min dim maj min min maj.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Edit:
Unless you know all the notes of the neck, and the scale you're playing by heart, it's quite essential that you already know the 7 patterns of the majorscale. If you don't, then learn them first.

Re edit: After reading your post again I see you're definitely not ready for modes. I would strongly recommend you to learn the majorscale before you start with this. when you learn the 7 notes of the scale, and its 7 chords (read chords for scales by andrew), then you're ready.

Posted by: Nighthawk Jul 30 2008, 05:49 PM

QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 30 2008, 06:29 PM) *
Well, the easiest way to start off with is to learn all the 7 boxes of the majorscale. then you'll also know that mixo is equal to the major pattern, but has a flat7th. That's why it's dominant, because of the major 3rd and minor 7th.

ANYWAY, yes, it's another startingpoint.
In D Mixo you'll start off in the 5th degree of the majorscale. HOWEVER, since it's in mixo, this will actually be the first degree.
That means that the chord progression also changes.

SO, to play in true mixo, you'd do like this for example.

C7 Dmin Edim Fmaj Gmin Amin Bbmaj C7.
You see, the progression changes.

In Ionian the progression would be maj, min min maj maj min dim, however in mixo, you see it's maj (or dominant if you add a seventh) min dim maj min min maj.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Edit:
Unless you know all the notes of the neck, and the scale you're playing by heart, it's quite essential that you already know the 7 patterns of the majorscale. If you don't, then learn them first.

Re edit: After reading your post again I see you're definitely not ready for modes. I would strongly recommend you to learn the majorscale before you start with this. when you learn the 7 notes of the scale, and its 7 chords (read chords for scales by andrew), then you're ready.

Thanks for the answer pal...well actually I know the major scale very well and I understand it's chords how they and major scales are constructed and stuff...the chords for scale lesson I understood 100% that's also the reason why I understood your argumentation of the progresssion you mentioned...so you are not right on this one...
So you would say if I want to play d mixolydian I just play normal d major but keep in mind that I have to play the flattened 7th right?Then I have the Mixolydian mode in D...this is another approach than the counting back thing in Andrews lesson I am still not so sure about

Posted by: kjutte Jul 30 2008, 06:12 PM

QUOTE (Nighthawk @ Jul 30 2008, 06:49 PM) *
Thanks for the answer pal...well actually I know the major scale very well and I understand it's chords how they and major scales are constructed and stuff...the chords for scale lesson I understood 100% that's also the reason why I understood your argumentation of the progresssion you mentioned...so you are not right on this one...
So you would say if I want to play d mixolydian I just play normal d major but keep in mind that I have to play the flattened 7th right?Then I have the Mixolydian mode in D...this is another approach than the counting back thing in Andrews lesson I am still not so sure about


Oh, when you talked about counting backwards etc I thought you didn't know anything about scales tongue.gif

Ok, well you see, that flat 7th will also result in a change of the chord progression.
You will play the ordinary majorscale, but START at the 5th degree of it. This is because the fith degree has a flat 7.

When you start there, you make that degree your first degree, also called modulating.
When you start off at the mixolydian degree, you will have a different chord progression.

So anyway, yes, you just start off with your mixolydian pattern instead of Ionian, or aeolian, or whatever.

Meaning that your chord pattern will result in Maj min dim maj min min maj, OR mixo degree, aeolian, locrian, ionian, dorian phrygian and lydian.
These are just the patterns, don't mind the name.

Because of the flat 7, that's the chord's characteristic. Also, a flat 7 means the lydian degree. Therefore a D7 and Cmaj7 will work really well.

Example of progression for mixolydian:

D7, Cmaj7, Dmaj, cmaj? whatever you wish smile.gif

Edit:
again I emphasize that you're just starting off with the 5th box in the majorscale. This is the Domiant or fith degree.
Am I repetitive? lol.

Posted by: Nighthawk Jul 30 2008, 07:00 PM

QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 30 2008, 07:12 PM) *
Oh, when you talked about counting backwards etc I thought you didn't know anything about scales tongue.gif

Ok, well you see, that flat 7th will also result in a change of the chord progression.
You will play the ordinary majorscale, but START at the 5th degree of it. This is because the fith degree has a flat 7.

When you start there, you make that degree your first degree, also called modulating.
When you start off at the mixolydian degree, you will have a different chord progression.

So anyway, yes, you just start off with your mixolydian pattern instead of Ionian, or aeolian, or whatever.

Meaning that your chord pattern will result in Maj min dim maj min min maj, OR mixo degree, aeolian, locrian, ionian, dorian phrygian and lydian.
These are just the patterns, don't mind the name.

Because of the flat 7, that's the chord's characteristic. Also, a flat 7 means the lydian degree. Therefore a D7 and Cmaj7 will work really well.

Example of progression for mixolydian:

D7, Cmaj7, Dmaj, cmaj? whatever you wish smile.gif

Edit:
again I emphasize that you're just starting off with the 5th box in the majorscale. This is the Domiant or fith degree.
Am I repetitive? lol.

Thanks lot man this way of thinking about how to generate the modes really helps me...Modes are really fascinating when you finally got the hang of it...suddenly the same tones of a c major scale you have been using for ages have an Irish feeling just because you play them in a different context with different progessions namely D-Dorian . Amazing...

Posted by: kjutte Jul 30 2008, 07:03 PM

QUOTE (Nighthawk @ Jul 30 2008, 08:00 PM) *
Thanks lot man this way of thinking about how to generate the modes really helps me...Modes are really fascinating when you finally got the hang of it...suddenly the same tones of a c major scale you have been using for ages have an Irish feeling just because you play them in a different context with different progessions namely D-Dorian . Amazing...


Anytime, man! If you want more help, add me on msn: [email protected]

Posted by: Nighthawk Jul 30 2008, 07:08 PM

QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 30 2008, 08:03 PM) *
Anytime, man! If you want more help, add me on msn: [email protected]

I have no MSN, unfortunately..I have ICQ and skype and a 3rd messenger would be overdone smile.gif I've added you here at GMC though !

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 30 2008, 07:28 PM

QUOTE (Nighthawk @ Jul 30 2008, 02:08 PM) *
I have no MSN, unfortunately..I have ICQ and skype and a 3rd messenger would be overdone smile.gif I've added you here at GMC though !


Regarding the original question ...

Well, you could just know that D is the 5th degree of the G major scale, or you could work backwards using the major formula as follows:

Formula is:

2 2 1 2 2 2 1

we know:

_2_2_1_2_2_2_1
? ? ? ? D


So, to get the root we work backwards from the D and subtract 2 semitones, then 1, then 2, and 2.

That gives us:

D C B A G

Hence it is G major smile.gif

Now, I thought the same way as you about this when I first learnt about modes, but as DR has said, its not really an important point - its far more useful to learn the fingering for D mixolydian than to try and work out that it is a mode of G major - that piece of information is certainly useful but doesn't immediately help you play it.

Posted by: kjutte Jul 30 2008, 07:31 PM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 30 2008, 08:28 PM) *
Regarding the original question ...

Well, you could just know that D is the 5th degree of the G major scale, or you could work backwards using the major formula as follows:

Formula is:

2 2 1 2 2 2 1

we know:

_2_2_1_2_2_2_1
? ? ? ? D


So, to get the root we work backwards from the D and subtract 2 semitones, then 1, then 2, and 2.

That gives us:

D C B A G

Hence it is G major smile.gif

Now, I thought the same way as you about this when I first learnt about modes, but as DR has said, its not really an important point - its far more useful to learn the fingering for D mixolydian than to try and work out that it is a mode of G major - that piece of information is certainly useful but doesn't immediately help you play it.


I said degree of major just to illustrate, and make it less alien.
Many mistake it and think it's a whole different scale to learn, but in fact you're just starting on another pattern.

Agreedz0r Andrew?

Edit: And I don't really get your meaning of this, because if you know the fingering of major (the 7 boxes) you also know the fingering of all the modes...

Posted by: Nighthawk Jul 30 2008, 07:40 PM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 30 2008, 08:28 PM) *
Regarding the original question ...

Well, you could just know that D is the 5th degree of the G major scale, or you could work backwards using the major formula as follows:

Formula is:

2 2 1 2 2 2 1

we know:

_2_2_1_2_2_2_1
? ? ? ? D


So, to get the root we work backwards from the D and subtract 2 semitones, then 1, then 2, and 2.

That gives us:

D C B A G

Hence it is G major smile.gif

Now, I thought the same way as you about this when I first learnt about modes, but as DR has said, its not really an important point - its far more useful to learn the fingering for D mixolydian than to try and work out that it is a mode of G major - that piece of information is certainly useful but doesn't immediately help you play it.

Thanks Andrew now it clicks in my head tongue.gif what you meant exactly with working backwards..

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 30 2008, 07:40 PM

QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 30 2008, 02:31 PM) *
I said degree of major just to illustrate, and make it less alien.
Many mistake it and think it's a whole different scale to learn, but in fact you're just starting on another pattern.

Agreedz0r Andrew?

Edit: And I don't really get your meaning of this, because if you know the fingering of major (the 7 boxes) you also know the fingering of all the modes...


Don't mistake boxes for modes - rather think of it as a freakish coincidence that they are the same, so you keep the concepts separate ...

The best way to think of it IS as a different scale, but one that is related to the major scale, as a result of which, the boxes are reused.

Posted by: Nighthawk Jul 30 2008, 07:41 PM

QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 30 2008, 08:31 PM) *
I said degree of major just to illustrate, and make it less alien.
Many mistake it and think it's a whole different scale to learn, but in fact you're just starting on another pattern.

Agreedz0r Andrew?

Edit: And I don't really get your meaning of this, because if you know the fingering of major (the 7 boxes) you also know the fingering of all the modes...

Does your last edit address me or andrew ?Forget it I see you addressed Andrew

Posted by: DeepRoots Jul 30 2008, 07:42 PM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 30 2008, 07:40 PM) *
rather think of it as a freakish coincidence that they are the same

Best damn freakish coincidence of all time?

You got that right biggrin.gif

Posted by: kjutte Jul 30 2008, 07:46 PM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 30 2008, 08:40 PM) *
Don't mistake boxes for modes - rather think of it as a freakish coincidence that they are the same, so you keep the concepts separate ...

The best way to think of it IS as a different scale, but one that is related to the major scale, as a result of which, the boxes are reused.


I know, the Ionians, Dorians etc had their own way of playing The scale...
They are as you say, equal in fingerings. However I agree with you, becuase of the flats and sharps are their characteristic, and if you know of them, it will be easier to express the mode.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 30 2008, 07:49 PM

QUOTE (DeepRoots @ Jul 30 2008, 02:42 PM) *
Best damn freakish coincidence of all time?

You got that right biggrin.gif


Of course it isn't a coincidence in reality but it is such a source of confusion that I try and separate the concepts smile.gif

So I would summarize as follows: (I know you know this DR)

Modes are different scales
Modes are generated by stepping through the notes of the major scale and changing the root note

Boxes are not different scales
Boxes are generated by stepping through the notes of the major scale and not changing the root note

As a result of the above:

Modes can be played on the guitar neck by combining the 2 concepts and moving through the patterns of the major scale and changing the root note.

Posted by: kjutte Jul 30 2008, 08:00 PM

QUOTE (Nighthawk @ Jul 30 2008, 08:41 PM) *
Does your last edit address me or andrew ?Forget it I see you addressed Andrew


Adressed to Andrew buddy.

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 30 2008, 08:49 PM) *
Of course it isn't a coincidence in reality but it is such a source of confusion that I try and separate the concepts smile.gif

So I would summarize as follows: (I know you know this DR)

Modes are different scales
Modes are generated by stepping through the notes of the major scale and changing the root note

Boxes are not different scales
Boxes are generated by stepping through the notes of the major scale and not changing the root note

As a result of the above:

Modes can be played on the guitar neck by combining the 2 concepts and moving through the patterns of the major scale and changing the root note.


By the way, I illustrate with the patterns so that people won't stick in one box. Of course I know that that one box's notes are scattered all over the neck, but everyone doesn't think about that. One step at a time...

By changing the rootnotes you will get another scale, but comparing it to patterns you already know makes it easy, and also a practically correct way to execute it.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 30 2008, 08:35 PM

QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 30 2008, 03:00 PM) *
By changing the rootnotes you will get another scale, but comparing it to patterns you already know makes it easy, and also a practically correct way to execute it.


Absolutely true as long as you understand the difference, and a good tip for learning modal boxes quickly!

Posted by: kjutte Jul 30 2008, 08:42 PM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 30 2008, 09:35 PM) *
Absolutely true as long as you understand the difference, and a good tip for learning modal boxes quickly!


biggrin.gif

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