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Posted by: wrk Jun 4 2009, 11:42 AM

Hi guys,

I work since a while, when time and motivation allow me, on some interactive music theory learning tools. I have started this project as a collection of ugly looking prototypes, mainly for personal use. Then i though to polish them a bit and put them online. Some adjustments still need to be done of course.

As i lost a bit motivation the last time, i thought to give myself a little boost and share this with you. Any help, feedback, comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated !!! Maybe some ideas for future tools or missing options of the existing ones. Eventually even some bugs, but i hope not.

Three modules are existing by now: Ear Trainer, Key Trainer, Interval Trainer

Note: Similar tools are already existing online (musictheory.net and others), but i wanted to add a few more configuration options to start super easy and add step by step keys, intervals, etc. EarTraining for example i wanted to practice with different instruments, or only practice 2-3 intervals i have difficulties with, .. things like that.

The website is accessible with the very creative address

http://www.musiclearningtools.net

Hope you like it and find them useful. I'm curious about your thoughts ... Thanks !!

Andy

Posted by: Emir Hot Jun 4 2009, 11:48 AM

I loved it Well done man

Posted by: Matt23 Jun 4 2009, 11:51 AM

It looks great, much nicer than musictheory.net. One suggestion I do have is that on the ear trainer you start the intervals on different notes each time, as it is quite easy to hear the intervals in relation to each other when they always have the same root, when you should be hearing them as seperate intervals. Very good website though, it's really impressive.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jun 4 2009, 11:55 AM

Andy as I told you before this is great thing you are doing !
I like it a lot, it is very useful and beneficial. Like you said, adding multiple instruments to choose from for ear training would be perfect. Perhaps you can program something that when interval is played, one instrument can play one while the other plays other note. That way you get sounds mixed up and it really develops ear nicely. You can do this also for 4 part harmonies with brass reeds and string sections !

Posted by: Rated Htr Jun 4 2009, 12:05 PM

It's great, love the interface

Posted by: wrk Jun 4 2009, 12:34 PM

Thank you Matt! Actually this can be archived in the configuration panel. On the right side "random root" you have the possibility to set a fixed root note of your choice or a random root note. Is this the option you suggested ?




Thanks Pedja
By now i added only 2 instruments. I need to create the other(grey) audio files for each instrument and record them first.
To use two or more different instrument for each note is a great idea. Have not thought of this, but makes perfectly sense. Thanks you !

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jun 4 2009, 12:34 PM

Looks and works great, very well done Andy!!!

One thing tho, I tried Ear Training and I got same interval/chord one after another, few times tho,
maybe you could fix that so that each next interval is different, good job.

Posted by: wrk Jun 4 2009, 12:41 PM

True, you are right. Is noted and quickly fixed. Thank you ..
One of these thing which are easily forgotten when a programmer got lazy

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jun 4 2009, 12:49 PM

Great!!

Posted by: Matt23 Jun 4 2009, 01:02 PM

Yeh, I never noticed all those options. Your website just gets better and better.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jun 4 2009, 01:09 PM

Glad I could contribute in any way Andy. It will be really awesome if you do this as I have not seen it on any website so far

Posted by: Canis Jun 4 2009, 01:29 PM

Awesome site! You did a great job
I'm definetly gonna use this a lot ^^

Posted by: Fsgdjv Jun 4 2009, 01:52 PM

Wow, this looks great, I'll probably use it a lot aswell.

Posted by: David Wallimann Jun 4 2009, 01:56 PM

Very nice work!
Website is clean and tools very useful.
Thanks for sharing!

Posted by: JVM Jun 4 2009, 04:47 PM

Bookmarked

Posted by: Carlos Carrillo Jun 4 2009, 05:01 PM

+1 ,very nice!!!

Posted by: kaznie_NL Jun 4 2009, 06:18 PM

It looks sooooo nice! Great work!

Posted by: Tolek Jun 4 2009, 06:33 PM

Great work so far, Andy! As Matt already suggested, I´d start with a different root. However, it would be better to have both options: same root, different root. Keep up working!

Posted by: Skalde Jun 4 2009, 07:58 PM

This is great man! It looks really professional. I am trying to find every day a few minutes for training on your website.

Posted by: jafomatic Jun 4 2009, 08:13 PM

Extremely useful and awesome. Thanks for making this available.

Posted by: Stephane Lucarelli Jun 4 2009, 08:24 PM

Great work Andy, really cool design too!
It would be great to add a random mode that plays ascending or descending intervals.

Posted by: wrk Jun 4 2009, 08:54 PM

Thank you guys for this positive feedback. Great you find the tools useful. I will try to work on the suggested points in the next days. Keep the ideas coming, there are really useful.

Anybody have ideas for some other tools?
I was thinking to integrate a tool to practice mode degrees and their relation to the major scale. Not sure about the concept yet, but this is something i want to have quicker available in my head.

Great idea Stephane, i will do that. Thank you


Try the option "random root" in the configuration panel.
I have set a default fixed root note to give the possibility to start really simple. Random root note can be activated on a later step.

Posted by: superize Jun 4 2009, 08:54 PM

cool website

Posted by: ItsMe Jun 4 2009, 09:31 PM

great love it.

Posted by: bladzerok Jun 4 2009, 10:24 PM

WOW thank you for putting it online, so easy to use and loaded with cool feature, from now on i will be ear-training using your site!

Posted by: Skalde Jun 4 2009, 11:01 PM

Can you please add a function to the ear trainer that allows you to hear how the intervalls sound like before you start the real training? You could create a small symbol in the configuration menu that - when clicked - plays the intervall. It would help me a lot since I am not familliar with most of the intervalls

Posted by: wrk Jun 4 2009, 11:20 PM

True, that would make sense somehow. Thing is, i find the configuration panel already quite loaded with options and still want to keep it intuitive. But the idea is great to have somewhere a reference to listen to the interval.
I will think about this. Thanks !

I would suggest for now to start with only two intervals and deselect the others. Click the play again button a few times and really listen to each interval. Switch between the play mode as well. After add a third interval, etc ..

Posted by: Canis Jun 4 2009, 11:33 PM

That's what I do to learn intervals ^^
I start with Unison, fifth and Octave, and I add new ones in between. Works like a charm! Thanks again for this site ^^

Posted by: Skalde Jun 4 2009, 11:42 PM

Actually I am doing the same thing. Unision, fith, sevth and octave were easy. I am learning minor 2nd and 3nd right now.
In Addiona checkbox with "select all/none" would be helpful.

Posted by: wrk Jun 4 2009, 11:52 PM

Good idea. I have noted it ... thanks!

Posted by: audiopaal Jun 5 2009, 08:35 AM

Looks great, impressive
Nice work man!

Posted by: Vasilije Vukmirovic Jun 5 2009, 04:32 PM

This is cool, I think it will be useful for lots of students.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jun 6 2009, 12:57 AM

Andy is doing great job with the site, I hope to see it improve in future and expand!

Posted by: wrk Jun 6 2009, 03:31 AM

Thank you guys. I'm glad to hear that some of you will use the site. I would be interested in your experiences. Don't hesitate do send them here or send me a PM.

Thanks Pedja. For sure i got some motivation now to integrate improvements and other tools. Some of the suggested points are done already and will be published soon.

I liked the idea to play the interval with mixed instruments. Do you have an idea which instruments would work well together? As the root note can be random around one octave, the other instrument should still sound pleasant over a range of two octaves.

Posted by: Lian Gerbino Jun 6 2009, 09:19 AM

awesome site man!!!

Ear training is so useful!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jun 6 2009, 09:36 AM

Thats great to hear that improvements are already made Andy.

I suggest couple of things regarding instrumentation :

- Baritone Sax, Tenor Sax, Alto Sax and Trumpet (here you can also add Soprano Sax!). This is pretty standard 4 way arranging method in small jazz bands or any sort of backing for chord stabs in popular music songs. 4 instrument equals 4 note chords. You can also add BASS to that so that listener hears root of the chord in the bass. Perhaps you can expand it and make it available for listener to choose whether he/she wants to practice ROOT, 1st , 2nd , 3rd inversion of chords. That way bass note would not be root but rather change function based on inversions.

- Violins, Cellos and other string section instruments. This is also pretty standard orchestration tool and was used in early jazz stages (think Singer based music Ella Fitzgerald for example). A lot of film composers use this type of scoring to portrait emotions (like when the main character finally kisses with the girl he was chasing after whole movie, then you hear lydian mode and this sort of scoring!).

- Combination of Guitar Bass Piano and anything from above. You can of course change type of pianos from Acoustic to Electric, Fender Rhodes etc. It changes sound completely in 4 way context.
I can send you ranges for instruments if you want and need any !

Anyway I hope this was somewhat useful Andy. It might take a lot of work but this is from my experience really necessary tool for anybody to train ear to perfection. Especially if you plan to write good arrangements and understand other instrumentation, this is very much needed.
Take your time with all this, I am sure if you manage to pull it off it will be one of a kind website regarding ear training !

Posted by: Oxac Jun 6 2009, 09:46 AM

What about having chord progressions randomed. Let's say you have 5 chords played, you know a certain amount of them (could be selected) and you should fill in the others?

I just realized that this would take a huge amount of code, but if you have nothing to do for a week I think you should give it a try.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jun 6 2009, 10:23 AM

Speaking of chord progression, there are many things that could be done !
For starters, make it available for listener to isolate and practice hearing in every key I IV V I , I VI II V , II V I, I V IV V I for example. Then besides this, you can offer Modal harmony and cadences in major scale modes. You can then add harmonic and melodic minor cadences. Not to mention that to all of this you can add Secondary dominant chords !
I realize this will really take a lot of time so thats why I mentioned instrumentation additions as it will have positive effect immediately !

Posted by: wrk Jun 6 2009, 10:38 AM

That was extremely helpful Pedja.
Main work is to create all the soundfiles. To integrate them as sets is easily done. I have tried to create some sets, but i don't have good sounding VSTs for these instruments. My father is doing orchestration work with cubase and has some VSTs of good quality. I will check with him which instruments he has.

I was thinking about Bass, but a bass is normally some octaves lower. My question is, does octave differences matter somehow in ear training? Is for example a C1 played by bass and D3 played by guitar still a major 2nd in this context?

Inversions are a great idea !!
I got some work to do i think ... thanks a lot Pedja !!









By now the idea was to create simple "Click & Learn" tools .. one question one answer. To work on some more complex tools will be great, but for this my knowledge on theory/harmony is limited. The programming part is not really the problem and can be done quickly. Flash development is basically my job. What needs a lot of time is to find a concept, think about the content and structure it.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jun 6 2009, 10:41 AM

You welcome Andy.
I don't think you have to worry too much about VST sounds right now. Midi for trumpet for example sounds nothing like trumpet - the ones I tried at least This is more of a guide for developing great ear and doing arrangements. I am sure you can find a lot of free VST's that offer these in them. I use Reason and it has virtually everything in there. Allows you to create your own patches from scratch as well as to use original combined patches with effects and everything. That might be worth looking into...

Regarding Bass, you are absolutely right - bass plays octave lower than guitar for example. By definition C1 and D3 would be Major 9th. When we talk about intervals larger then octave we end on 15th which is two octaves away from first note. That is why if we have C1 and D3 it would be treated as major 9th rather then major 2nd. In practice, your ear will learn to hear major 2nd so it will not care how far away are these two notes apart.
Hope that answers your question somewhat.

One more thing... Sound ranges definitely influence ability to recognize intervals. If you play intervals in really low range of piano for example, it will be very hard almost impossible to recognize intervals. If you go from middle range up you should be perfectly fine with it !

Posted by: wrk Jun 6 2009, 11:03 AM

True, no need to sound like real instruments, but it should sound at least pleasant. Otherwise i would stop after 5 chords . I will look into it.

I was not sure about how octaves steps are handled in ear training, but now it's clear. Thanks for the explanation

Maybe that could be another option later to shift the playback one octave up or down.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jun 6 2009, 11:09 AM

Yeah sure thing Andy, intervals until and after octave, very useful stuff

Posted by: wrk Jun 9 2009, 11:13 AM

Hi,

I got some nice ideas for improvements from you guys and wanted to give a short update what has changed since the last version of the http://www.musiclearningtools.net/ tool.

- Muris suggested to avoid to play the same intervals a few time after each other. This is integrated now, with the exception if more then 2 intervals/chords are selected.

- Stephane suggested to add a random playback mode. That was an nice idea and is integrated now.

- Pedja got the idea to integrate sets of different instruments. The functionality is integrated, but the audio files are still in production (kindly done by my dad ). Some new instruments are added already (Clarinet, Flute, Oboe) which will be later combined as sets (woodwinds sections, brass section, string section and a band set). Check them out .. some are really nice for practicing imo !!

To keep the configuration interface clean and intuitive, i change the way to select the sound libraries and play modes. Like this endless variations can be easily added. ... looks a bit "iPhoneish"

@Skalde : i try to find a good solution to have sound examples played of intervals/chords. The same for select all/none. Your ideas are not forgotten ..

@Oxac/Pedja : i really liked the chord progression/cadences idea. This will be the next tool i'm working on. I just need to collect more informations for this. Any help or hints where to find resources are greatly appreciated!


A "Thank you" to everybody so far. I got quite motivated again and hope you will like the improvements. Nice side effect for me is .. my ear is slowly developing, just by working/testing this tool

http://www.musiclearningtools.net/

Andy

Posted by: Skalde Jun 9 2009, 10:13 PM

I would start with intervals. They are pretty easy to remember. At least the most common ones

Posted by: wrk Jun 9 2009, 11:43 PM

Yes, i guess starting with intervals would makes sense. Intervals are the basics of chords. Then triads and after 7th chords. If you developed already a good ear for 3rd's and 5th's, you could start already with triads. The same with 7th's for 7th chords.

I'm not that far by now with ear training, but i guess a good developed ear for intervals will help to identify all kind of chords. I split chords in intervals in my brain to know what kind of chord it is. I suppose it will become more natural at some point, by hearing the sound of the chord on it's own.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jun 10 2009, 01:19 AM

Definiitely true mate!

Learning the sounds of intervals, and the theory rules that can be applied when calculating them means a lot. If you want I can make a small article on basics on intervals explained in a nice way, would you be interested in that?

Posted by: wrk Jun 10 2009, 03:00 PM

Would be great if you could do that. I guess it will be helpful for the ones interested in this topic. Thank you Ivan !!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jun 10 2009, 03:05 PM

Check out my interval series lessons. I have covered 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, triotne and 5ths so far. There is 6ths 7ths and octave left to complete it all.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jun 10 2009, 03:51 PM

OK then, this can eventually go into wiki if needed

If you're interested in more hands-on-hands approach you can check out Pedja's interval series where he explains everything nicely using some simple examples. I think combining this article with his lessons would be something useful perhaps. I've made this article based on a book on music theory that I red several years ago:

Intervals:

As atoms are building bloks or matter, intervals are the building blocks of melody and harmony. A good definition of an interval is "the space between the notes". On the next example you can observe the list of basic intervals starting from C:
notes_interval names
C (root)
Db minor 2nd (half step)
D major 2nd (whole step)
Eb minor third
E major third
F perfect 4th
F#(or Gb) tritone (augmented 4th for F# or diminished 5th for Gb)
G perfect 5th
G# (Ab) augmented 5th for G# or minor 6th for Ab
A major 6th
A# (Bb) augmented 6th for A# or minor 7th for Bb
B major 7th
C octave

here are some very well known melodies that use common intervals for ear training:

interval - tunes
minor 2nd Theme from Jaws
major 2nd Happy Birthday
minor 3rd Chopin’s Funeral March
major 3rd Kum Ba Ya
perfect 4th Here Comes The Bride
tritone Theme from The Simpsons
perfect 5th Theme from Star Wars, Twinkle Twinkle Little Star
minor 6th The Entertainer (3rd to 4th note)
major 6th Nobody Knows The Trouble I’ve Seen (descending), NBC Theme
minor 7th Theme from the original Star Trek, Somewhere from West Side Story
major 7th Bali Hai (Up an octave, then down a half step)
octave Somewhere Over The Rainbow


Inverting intervals:

An important skill all musicians must have, especially when transposing is the ability to invert intervals. If you have to transpose a tune "up a major 6th" on the spot, you'll probably find it easier to transpose it "down a minor 3rd", which is the same thing. A 3rd is a lot closer than 6th. In other words, you need to know that a major 6th inverts to a minor 3rd. When you invert an interval, you take the bottom not and put it on top, or vice versa. The result is a new interval, and the rules for inverting intervals are simple.

When you invert an interval:

- Major becomes minor
- Minor becomes major
- Perfect remains perfect
- Tritone remains tritone (augmented becomes diminished and vice versa)
- the old and new intervals add up to nine

For example:

1. If you invert a major 3rd of C (that would be E) it becomes E with C on top, a minor 6th. Major becomes minor, and three plus six add up to nine.
2. If you invert minor 2nd it becomes major 7th. Minor becomes major and two plus seven add up to nine.

To really learn the intervals properly, you should sing them as part of your daily practice routine. You don't need guitar to do this (unless you're a singer), so you can practice in the shower, in the card etc.
In addition, practice singing along with your favorite records, melodies, solos etc. You have to train your ear like this because a good solo consists largely of playing on gutiar what you hear in your head.


This is for now, who wants more?

Posted by: wrk Jun 10 2009, 05:27 PM

Nice Ivan .. thank you for taking the time ! .... +1 for more

Posted by: Stephane Lucarelli Jun 10 2009, 08:30 PM

The last improvements are really excellent, good job Andy !

I've got another suggestion : what about adding a button with "I don't know!" (I can't find the right word in english !!!!!), after several attempts?

Posted by: wrk Jun 11 2009, 11:19 AM

Thank you Stephane .. that was another nice idea !!
This button is integrated now and appears after 2 wrong attempts.

Posted by: Skalde Jun 12 2009, 06:22 PM

In the new version the volume of the piano sounds are way to low compared to the guitar sounds.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 12 2009, 08:58 PM

Wow fantastic work Wrk! The vintage feel created by the wood background is very nice as well.

Also I love the lives fixes you are doing - I wish we could do that at GMC as well..!

Posted by: wrk Jun 13 2009, 01:22 AM

Yes, thats true ... this needs to be adjusted.

The guitar and organs sounds are the first instruments i integrated.
I have added a lot of new instruments the last days. 15 instruments and 2 sets (Woodwinds section and string section). I am still searching for some good sounds for guitar (classic, clean, gain) and will replace them very soon.

Once all the instruments are done, i will adjust the volume to each other.



Thank you Kris .. glad you like it
Modern style interface and vintage background is maybe a bit weird, but i liked it somehow ..

I'm really happy to get improvement ideas and integrate them direct if possible. It's so helpful to get input from others, especially about the content.

Posted by: Skalde Jun 13 2009, 12:09 PM

If you want to add a new feature: A statistic for the current session would be cool. You could see which intervalls work fine and which need more practice.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jun 13 2009, 12:20 PM

This looks and sounds awesome!

I just couldn't find an option for changing the volume for playing the intervals, that could be useful I guess!

Posted by: wrk Jun 14 2009, 12:01 AM

Thank you Skalde, nice idea. This is definitely something i will add quite soon. To collect all the values is already integrated, but i have to figure out to display them nicely.


Thanks Ivan
No, there is no option to adjust the volume by now. Idea was to have all the sounds on the same level and the overall volume can be change with the keyboard. As there is no audio played constantly or looped somewhere, i was thinking to adjust volume within the tool is not really needed. Now that you say it, it could maybe be useful as people work differently with software or websites.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jun 14 2009, 01:14 PM

Ok mate no problem! It just occurred to me when I was playing the intervals, I was used to having some sort of a volume fader there. But I normally went to my volume knob on audio system so it's OK probably.

Posted by: wrk Jun 25 2009, 11:33 AM

Hi,

I am close to finish two new learning tools and this time it will be about "Scales". A "Scale Ear Trainer" and a "Scale Formula Trainer".

The "Scale Ear Trainer" is basically an extension of the interval/chords ear training tool. To identify scales, it is important to hear the interval steps from note to note or related to the root note. To give a scale the right name it would be handy to know the corresponding scale formula ... like 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7-8 for aeolian/nat. minor scale for example. I hope that makes sense and will be useful for some of you.

? Now i have a question how to group/categorize the huge amount of scales and though some of the theory gurus here at GMC could give me some suggestions.

I thought about 3 groups.

- Basic
--> Major
--> Minor
--> Major Pentatonic
--> Minor Pentatonic
--> Harmonic Minor
--> Melodic Minor
--> Chromatic

- Modes
--> Major scale modes (Ionian - Locrian)
--> Harmonic minor modes
--> Melodic minor modes

- Advanced/Exotic
--> all the other scales (maybe not all, but the important ones ..)

Would this makes sense like this or someone have another idea? Maybe, "Basics", "Advanced", "Exotic" .. ?

The "Ear Trainer" (http://www.musiclearningtools.net) uses 3 groups as well (Intervals, Triads, 7ths chords). I basically try to find something similar for scales.

Any help would be great .. Thanks !!!

Posted by: wrk Jul 1 2009, 10:43 AM

I have just added a new tool to the website - "http://www.musiclearningtools.net/scaleeartraining"

This tool can be used to practice to identify a scale by ear and to get an idea of a certain sound of each scales (with different instruments). An option "Play root note" can be activated to play and hold the root note while the complete scale is played.

Some adjustments still need to be done, but i would already be interested in your thoughts and suggestions. Hope you like it


P.S. : The Advanced section still need to be filled with more scales. If someone wants to have added a certain scale, please let me know the scale name and corresponding formula (Natural Minor - 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7)

Thank you !!

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jul 1 2009, 10:16 PM

Scale trainer is a great addition, this looks very professional to me now man, really great job!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 1 2009, 10:21 PM

Awesome addition Andy, your site will turn into something big I am sure!!!

Posted by: Jad Diab Jul 1 2009, 10:58 PM

Bookmarked, your website is really cool
I might ask for a little request : last time I was thinking about all those ear training programs on the internet, and I thought what would be cool, is to have an ear training program that you can have all the time on you, so I recorded different intervals (repeating each one twice) using my guitar (no midi files), with distorted sound and clean sound so the ear can recognize both of them, and exported them as mp3 files naming each file as its intervals and key. For examples I had files like that : A_2m.mp3 G_7M.mp3 D_5.mp3 ...ect (key of A second minor interval ; key of G major seventh ; key of D perfect fifth)
Then I put this file in my mp3 player, or my Ipod and listen to it in train, and guessing wich intervals are played, to check out my answer, I can look on song's name ..
I thought also of doind a version with intervals played and then saying the intervals name, so like this you can listen to it while sleeping but you will have short time of guessing wich interval it is.

Unfortunately, I didn't have time to finish this project, I only recorded all intervals in one octave of the keys of A and D. If you can have a zip file with this sort of intervals and put it on your site, I'm sure many musician would be interesting of training their ear while taking the train or the bus or the metro ....

Anyway, your site looks great

cheers

Posted by: wrk Jul 2 2009, 12:05 AM

Thanks Pedja and Ivan ... some more tools will come very soon

Yeah, i know what you mean ... it's an nice idea. I have tried something similar for my iPod once. A collection of mp3 files like you did, organized via notes text files ... it worked more or less, but it is such a pain to create all the sound files as you have to record all the intervals, chords, etc, in every key .. and not just each notes separated.

Too bad that flash is not supported by the iPhone/iPod Touch by now ... would be awesome to only adjust the format of the tools to the iPhone screen and use it everywhere.