How To Go About Getting Extremely Deep In The Pocket? |
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How To Go About Getting Extremely Deep In The Pocket? |
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Mar 30 2015, 02:29 AM |
Play live with 'people'. Preferably one's that are better than you. And do it a lot. Once a week minimum for several hours. Rehearsals, jams, gigs, etc. Play, play, play.
Also - listen to tons of groove music. funk, soul, jazz, disco, hip-hop ... There is no other way. No technique. No method. Full stop. This post has been edited by klasaine: Mar 30 2015, 02:30 AM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Mar 30 2015, 03:15 PM |
Ken - why do you think getting "in the pocket" requires live gigging with interaction from people? I currently don't play with a band. However, I do feel I can work on the groove with any backing that swings enough for me to 'dig in'. A recording with real drums will help, but a neatly programmed backing can be just as cool. That live interaction is of course very beneficial, but why do you think it is a necessity? 'Pocket' playing is not just your concept of where it is. It's your place inside the whole - which is dependent and variable upon the other players. If you only play with machines you don't get any (real time) feedback to adjust to. You can beat your part to death or urinate all over the track with no one to tell you (or subtly adjust you) that your part's not making it. If you don't have a lot of experience playing with humans in real time then your concept of how to play a groove with a machine will be most likely pretty stiff and not grooving. It might be 'correct'. It may be 'in-time'. But that has nothing to do with the pocket. What JSTCRSN says is very true. Playing with people will get you there a lot faster. If you played in bands before and for a while you can and will certainly transfer that instinct to playing with a track. Anyone who records has to do it constantly. *Backing tracks for the purpose of 1) karaoke or 2) learning to solo are very generic and lifeless. that's fine, they weren't/aren't made in the service of a song (no judgement, that's just reality). Which is why sometimes you can practice the crap out of a bkng trk and then go play the song with your band and realize that nothing you've 'practiced' works in the wild. I will add a list of legendary 'pocket' players. Both rhythm players and soloists (you have to 'solo' in the pocket too) in several genres ... *This a partial, unordered and seriously incomplete list. Cornell Dupree Steve Cropper Nile Rodgers Eddie Van Halen Robben Ford Tom Morello Roger Fisher Randy Rhoads Hendrix Clapton Jeff Beck Grant Green Ty Tabor Jerry Garcia Satriani Carlos Alomar Leslie West Ritchie Blackmore Steve Lukather Jimmy Nolen Al McKay Danny Gatton Brent Mason Louie Shelton David Lindley Dan Kortchmar James Taylor Elliot Easton Paul Jackson Jr. Ray Parker Jr. David Williams Chuck Berry Melvin Sparks Elliot Randall Rick Derringer Jesse Ed Davis Tony Maiden George Benson Phil Upchurch Bruce Conti Peter Frampton Ron Wood & Keith Richards (especially together) SRV Johnny Winter Albert King Bonnie Raitt Joe Walsh Waddy Wachtel I could go on for hours ... This post has been edited by klasaine: Mar 30 2015, 07:56 PM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Mar 31 2015, 05:46 PM |
My point being if you only play/record with backing tracks how do you know you're really nailing it?
Who checks your work? This post has been edited by klasaine: Mar 31 2015, 05:48 PM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Apr 1 2015, 03:05 PM |
Thanks for the list of guitarists btw, I am familiar with several of them. Even though they are amazing musicians, I don't really see how it is not possible to replicate their sense of groove/pocket, ie by jamming and transcribing their recordings? Their 'pocket' at that moment was dependent upon everyone else's pocket at that moment. Even they wouldn't play it the same way another time. Those parts only work in those particular situations. I'm not saying, in regard to this thread, that you can't learn decent time and the ability to play 'right' or 'good'. But the OP is referring to deep in the pocket. That is a whole other level. The level that makes your, an audience member as well as other musician's hair on the back of their neck stand up - live, streaming, recorded or otherwise. Those players I listed are at that level and you don't get there by playing only along with a track. *If you have a decent amount of experience playing in a band you can tell if your pocket is right (or wrong) when you play with a track. This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 1 2015, 05:47 PM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Apr 1 2015, 10:49 PM |
Ok I guess this discussion boils down to how we define 'deep in the pocket'.
To me it's about finding the perfect place 'in between' the other elements of the mix/band. I don't necessarily see the live interaction as a necessary element to achieve this, although it is definitely a closely related topic. @Leonard478 please be sure to check out fzalfas progress in the ongoing collab. To me it seems he is approaching the pocket at cruising speed: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&p=709069 |
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Apr 1 2015, 11:10 PM |
This is a very interesting discussion. I'd just like to add what cool bass teacher taught me is that "the pocket" is usually (not always but really in most of the cases) found right behind the beat. Now, what I had trouble understanding here is what is behind the beat exactly. He described it to me like having two pictures which are semi transparent one on top of the other. One picture being the band and the other one being the bass guitar which needs to find the pocket. At one point the pictures are on top of each other and match up perfectly. Try moving the bass picture slightly to the right. Just a few millimeters would do it. In practice this means you'd hear a kick drum and then you'd play just after it (talking here just slightly, in milliseconds). It is a weird feeling but when you play bass guitar and search for this pocket, you can hear when you get inside it. Somehow everything feels "like one" and bass sits in there perfectly and feels at home and you feel the groove going on.
Having said this, I think the worst enemy of playing in the pocket is to play ahead of the beat (anti-beat). On top of the beat usually works okish, but try being late on purpose and see how it feels. See if you can find that perfect timing/space where it just feels right to play the note/strum. I never really thought about this much in terms of live playing vs backing tracks. I guess the hardest thing with the pocket is to actually figure out and know what it feels like. Live playing and finding a pocket definitely depends on each person as drummer and everyone else will be all over the place tempo wise (ok some bands might actually play robotic perfect). This also adds a crazy level of difficulty as not only you need to find your pocket but you need to move it around as live band breathes. In terms of this, I think that finding a picket for your instrument be it a guitar or bass or whatever, should be easier then as you know what you can expect (as you get familiar with the recording or the recording features "perfectly programmed" drums in terms of timing). I must say that I'm finding this thread really interesting and it is making me think in new ways and in new dimensions. To me it sounds like leonard478 is looking for a way to develop better rhythm and time keeping skills with combination of finding the pocket and spending most of the time grooving in it. To do this Leo, my suggestion would be to tackle as many funk lessons as you can. Both ones with single string licks and ones comping or featuring strumming rhythms. Please let me know if you need some lesson suggestions. -------------------- For GMC support please email support (at) guitarmasterclass.net
Check out my lessons and my instructor board. Check out my beginner guitar lessons course! ; Take a bass course now! |
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Apr 2 2015, 05:57 AM |
In relation to what Bogdan mentions, but maybe a little OT is that the pocket can be in different places for the different players/instruments in the band and on whatever particular song ... or style.
A classic example is the Police. Sting is behind (or on the bottom) of the beat and Stewart Copeland is way on top. Uncomfortably so sometimes but it works. New Orleans style Rock and Roll as well as their brand of soul, funk and blues will combine both straight R&R guitar with swing style drums. It's weird but it feels good. *One of the reasons a lot of oldies cover bands sound like shite on the old rock and roll songs is that they haven't studied the 'feel'. Elvis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc. had this whole swing v. straight thing going on. It's really sublime but it's absolutely essential and it 'makes' the tunes. The Stones, the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Sabbath, Rod Stewart - they understood it. That's one of the reasons they were able to carry the R&R torch forward. This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 2 2015, 05:58 AM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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