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> alternate picker ? am i ?
Egln40
post Dec 5 2006, 10:08 PM
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Hi.

Just started with electric and Masterclass.
I am a bit confused about alternate picking. I understand the up down - up down pattern, but..........
How do you manage that when on a down stroke, you go down a string (D to G for example). Do you have to hit the G on a up stroke, or on the way down ?
Thanks for giving me some light.
Eric.
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ezravdb
post Dec 5 2006, 10:15 PM
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alternate picking means: Always UP and DOWN or DOWN and UP...ALWAYS biggrin.gif

alternative picking is something different, thats when you take 2 strings in 1 stroke(up or down) , that way you save time with picking and play faster. (right folks?)

good luck with alternate picking and building up speed!


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sanders4617
post Dec 5 2006, 10:52 PM
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For me.. I guess it depends on what I am doing after that. I alternate pick, but its not strictly alternate picking. Sometimes I go the say way (up for instance) a few times in a row. I don't really think about it when I play.. but I did when I first learned to alternate pick. I used the beiginning intro to Fade to Black to help me with that. Ever since then (it took a week to get use to it I guess, dont really remember).. I am always using alternate picking in my playing. If I tried to consistently use down strokes, I couldn't do it.

Depending on the south I am looking for.. I sometimes use my other fingers to pick some of the strings. Or I will even put the pick between my index and middle finger and just use all my fingers without a pick. With you playing the faster music (I tend to lean toward blues and classic rock).. it would be a requirement (atleast I would think so) to use a pick.


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PickNGrin
post Dec 7 2006, 04:08 PM
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If I was picking down on the D string, and the next note was on the G string, I typically would NOT execute an upstroke on the G string.....that would mean going over the string and reversing direction to come back up and pick it with an upstoke.
If I was going from the D string to the A string...then I would execute an up stroke.
And, I'd still call this "alternate picking". Basically, if you are using both up and down strokes, you are incorporating alternate picking.
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Kristofer Dahl
post Dec 7 2006, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (PickNGrin @ Dec 7 2006, 06:08 PM) *
If I was picking down on the D string, and the next note was on the G string, I typically would NOT execute an upstroke on the G string.....that would mean going over the string and reversing direction to come back up and pick it with an upstoke.
If I was going from the D string to the A string...then I would execute an up stroke.
And, I'd still call this "alternate picking". Basically, if you are using both up and down strokes, you are incorporating alternate picking.


This kind of thinking works nicely if you aren't after the demonic speeds (and there certainly is no need for that!). blink.gif

However, if you want achieve crazy alternate picking a la Paul Gilbert/Yngwie Malmsteen - then I can stronlgy recommend reversing direction in order to play 100,00 % strict alternate picking even if it feels uncofortbale at first.

The reason I can say this with certainty is because I have been on the "wrong road" in alternate picking land for a long time - it took me a lot of time to repair this. In fact, it has only very recently started to pay off.

I also know Tank has a similar experience.


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Egln40
post Dec 7 2006, 07:43 PM
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Yes, I realised how uncomfortable reversing is, but looks like it's the master's way of picking. I'll practice that way.

Thank you all for your response and advice. cool.gif

Eric
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DanielM
post Dec 7 2006, 09:47 PM
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i agree the only way to master alternate picking is to do purely up and down strokes, but isn't it potentially faster to 'alternative pick' all the time? aka sweeping/raking.

so when you are doing 3 notes on one string then 2 on the next isnt it faster to downstroke across both strings when playing the 3rd note of the top and the 1st of the bottom?
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Kristofer Dahl
post Dec 7 2006, 10:16 PM
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QUOTE (DanielM @ Dec 7 2006, 11:47 PM) *
so when you are doing 3 notes on one string then 2 on the next isnt it faster to downstroke across both strings when playing the 3rd note of the top and the 1st of the bottom?


Yes it is faster but it sounds like sh#t biggrin.gif Really, + you can't get that agressive picking feel going if all of sudden you have to interrupt with two downstrokes in a row.


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DanielM
post Dec 7 2006, 10:50 PM
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ok so basically restrict that technique to sweeping?
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Kristofer Dahl
post Dec 7 2006, 10:53 PM
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QUOTE (DanielM @ Dec 8 2006, 12:50 AM) *
ok so basically restrict that technique to sweeping?


Absolutely - good thinking. smile.gif


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Guitar1969
post Dec 8 2006, 01:05 AM
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QUOTE (PickNGrin @ Dec 7 2006, 07:08 AM) *
If I was picking down on the D string, and the next note was on the G string, I typically would NOT execute an upstroke on the G string.....that would mean going over the string and reversing direction to come back up and pick it with an upstoke.
If I was going from the D string to the A string...then I would execute an up stroke.
And, I'd still call this "alternate picking". Basically, if you are using both up and down strokes, you are incorporating alternate picking.


There is a whole school of thought that this way you described above is faster than strictly aternate picking because of the exact reason you mention - It is called Economy picking and it seems logical . This may cause some more debate, but check out this lesson which discusses all of this in detail:

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/gui...my_picking.html

Don't shoot the messenger - I just find it interesting. Any thoughts?


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Norven
post Dec 8 2006, 11:24 PM
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I use alternativ picking. But sometimes when i do fast runs over all the strings I use economic picking.


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Kristofer Dahl
post Dec 8 2006, 11:38 PM
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QUOTE (Guitar1969 @ Dec 8 2006, 03:05 AM) *
There is a whole school of thought that this way you described above is faster than strictly aternate picking because of the exact reason you mention - It is called Economy picking and it seems logical . This may cause some more debate, but check out this lesson which discusses all of this in detail:

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/gui...my_picking.html

Don't shoot the messenger - I just find it interesting. Any thoughts?


I believe at the end you might be a little faster with economy picking. However, I personally think the disadvantages are way to many.

As I was saying I have been doing economy picking for a long time - so that's why I can tell...

I uploaded a solo I did a long time ago with economy picking.
Attached File(s)
Attached File  solo3mas.mp3 ( 1.78MB ) Number of downloads: 995
 


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Kristofer Dahl
post Dec 9 2006, 12:34 PM
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...so I think it sounds ok and it's pretty fast. However, when comparing to my strictly alternate picking I have got today - the advantages are: More attack, control, and imo better "speedpicking tone" - if there is such a thing.

Basically alternate picking has opened up to things I could not do at the time I recorded the audio clip.

To be honest I'd rather have a maximum speed of 190 bpm (or whatever) with great tone than 230 with bad tone and poor control. No one will here a great difference between those speeds. However, the difference in tone will perfectly audible.

So once again... gor for alternate picking!!! biggrin.gif

Kris


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Josiah
post Dec 9 2006, 07:10 PM
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Economy picking kind of confused me too. I was told it was the way to play fast, so I practiced it with my scales and sequences. After a careful evaluation of the mechanics, I found that there are only rare situations where it would be useful to me. So I went back to alternate picking only to find my picking hand "confused"!

One of the things that I found hard is the timing of hitting two notes in a single down stroke but at othertimes
reversing direction (alternate picking). You actually have to slow down when you economy pick across two stings so the time between notes is equal to the time of reversing direction during the alternate picking of other notes!

Your wrist has to stop during those two economy picked notes (the movement across the strings comes from the elbow), then the wrist has to start again to alternate pick. So the rhythm of your picking hand's wrist becomes a stutter. If you slowly economy pick a passage and watch your picking hand, you will see what I mean. While alternate picking, the wrist maintains a steady rhythm while the elbow simutaniously moves the wrist across the strings.

In other words, when you alternate pick down on one string and move the pick past the string below it, then reverse the direction, there is only an illusion that the wrist moves further down then it does going up because the movement you see of going between strings is a compound movement of the wrist and the elbow at the same time. In actuallity, the wrist itself moves the same distance up and down as if it where picking one string tremolo.

If a passage can be played one note per string, then you can play it faster by sweeping it (economy picking),
but if you must alternate pick some notes, the sweep picking advantage is eliminated because all notes must be played at the same tempo.

Personally, I remain unconvinced economy picking provides a real speed increase and it is definately harder to learn and perform instinctively. I believe most top shredders use alternate picking only. For example, ultra-fast shredders Michael Angelo and Chris Impellitteri are proponents of strict alternate picking (except during arpeggio sweeping).

By the way, I quit practicing sweep picking arpeggios in favor of alternate picking them! I have found it easier to incorporate small parts of arpeggio patterns into my alternate picked melodies if they are alternate picked like the rest of my patterns. An added bonus is that practicing this way has really helped my right hand technique and overall playing speed!


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Kristofer Dahl
post Dec 10 2006, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE (Josiah @ Dec 9 2006, 09:10 PM) *
Economy picking kind of confused me too. I was told it was the way to play fast, so I practiced it with my scales and sequences. After a careful evaluation of the mechanics, I found that there are only rare situations where it would be useful to me. So I went back to alternate picking only to find my picking hand "confused"!

One of the things that I found hard is the timing of hitting two notes in a single down stroke but at othertimes
reversing direction (alternate picking). You actually have to slow down when you economy pick across two stings so the time between notes is equal to the time of reversing direction during the alternate picking of other notes!

Your wrist has to stop during those two economy picked notes (the movement across the strings comes from the elbow), then the wrist has to start again to alternate pick. So the rhythm of your picking hand's wrist becomes a stutter. If you slowly economy pick a passage and watch your picking hand, you will see what I mean. While alternate picking, the wrist maintains a steady rhythm while the elbow simutaniously moves the wrist across the strings.

In other words, when you alternate pick down on one string and move the pick past the string below it, then reverse the direction, there is only an illusion that the wrist moves further down then it does going up because the movement you see of going between strings is a compound movement of the wrist and the elbow at the same time. In actuallity, the wrist itself moves the same distance up and down as if it where picking one string tremolo.

If a passage can be played one note per string, then you can play it faster by sweeping it (economy picking),
but if you must alternate pick some notes, the sweep picking advantage is eliminated because all notes must be played at the same tempo.

Personally, I remain unconvinced economy picking provides a real speed increase and it is definately harder to learn and perform instinctively. I believe most top shredders use alternate picking only. For example, ultra-fast shredders Michael Angelo and Chris Impellitteri are proponents of strict alternate picking (except during arpeggio sweeping).

By the way, I quit practicing sweep picking arpeggios in favor of alternate picking them! I have found it easier to incorporate small parts of arpeggio patterns into my alternate picked melodies if they are alternate picked like the rest of my patterns. An added bonus is that practicing this way has really helped my right hand technique and overall playing speed!


Thanks for a great informative post - I agree with you and think you nailed the dilemma.

I also practice alternate picked arpeggios - slightly inspired my Steve Morse. It maskes you uise them in a different way when improvising!


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PickNGrin
post Dec 12 2006, 05:13 PM
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WOW! great thread! Some good points here, very informative. A couple points that I had not thought about!
Thanks for posting!

PS -Really great recording Kris!

This post has been edited by PickNGrin: Dec 12 2006, 05:15 PM
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Tom2
post Dec 13 2006, 01:16 PM
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Kris

if you were, for example, to play a full scale in a solo using 3 notes per string, would u stick only to up-down-up-down picking? I have tried economy picking and found it frustrating, but when i am playing a scale with 3 notes per string i have found it easier to play , for example, E string, down-up-down then a string down-up down etc then the reverse of this when coming back. is this how the rest of you guys would play the scale??
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Kristofer Dahl
post Dec 13 2006, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE
if you were, for example, to play a full scale in a solo using 3 notes per string, would u stick only to up-down-up-down picking?


The answer is yes,yes,yes, - always always always when speedpicking. smile.gif

That's the conclusion I have come to...

Kris


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RIP Dime
post Dec 14 2006, 08:08 AM
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Hey guys, I don't mean to thread jack, but could this be the reason why I my right hand gets "confused" while playing descending patterns. I start with a down stroke, so it goes down up down, then I move down(tword the low E) while on an upstroke, so it throws off my rhythm? Could that be it?

So the solution would be to start on a up stroke?

This post has been edited by RIP Dime: Dec 14 2006, 08:10 AM


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