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Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 6 2007, 12:01 AM

Introduction

Our next scale is the Major Pentatonic scale. Closely related to the Minor Pentatonic scale, it can be regarded as a Minor scale with a couple of notes missing.

The Major Pentatonic Scale

The Major Pentatonic scale is a 5 note scale, built using the formula: 2 2 3 2 3

Lets have a look at how we would build a scale of G Major Pentatonic. Our root note is G, and building up from the formula we get the following notes:

G + 2 semitones = A
A + 2 semitones = B
B + 3 semitones = D
D + 2 semitones = E
E + 3 semitones = G

Giving us the notes G, A, B, D, E, G, and as usual you can apply this formula with any other root note to get the exact scale that you want.

On the Fretboard

How do we play this on the guitar? Well, sticking with our G Major scale, we can construct 5 different boxes, one for each note of the scale.

Here they are:







I give you the Major Pentatonic scale!

Posted by: redwing Jul 9 2007, 05:59 PM

Andrew, Thanks for sharing your knowledge. One question, what's the C# on the 1st string in the fourth example? Shouldn't that be a D? Also, do the different modes of the pentatonic scale have names, like the ionian, dorian, etc. of the diatonic scale? Thanks.

Posted by: muris Jul 9 2007, 06:07 PM

Yeah,that should be D,but no big deal cause you figured it out already

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 9 2007, 06:26 PM

D'oh Thank guys - fixed now (those dots drive me insane) ...

Posted by: sb81 Jul 9 2007, 06:39 PM

More Theory, yay!

Andrew, what genres of music does the Major Pentatonic suit well?

Thanks

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 9 2007, 07:18 PM

Rock man! Aything with a Major feel will work well with Major Pentatonic - I think it has a happy kind of feel to it, and also if you play it right an oriental kind of sound.

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Jul 14 2007, 11:44 PM

Great Great Great. So this G major Pentatonic is the same as minor except the shapes are in a different order, hence the Major sound ?



- John

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 15 2007, 12:12 AM

Correct, but don't look at it that way. You can reuse the patterns to save you learning new ones, but don't thik of them as being the same scale. For instance, C major pentatonic box 1 is the same pattern as A minor pentatonic box 2, but you can't compare them becuase one is in the key of C and the other is in the key of A minor (they are in fact modes of each other). Think in terms of the 2 different formulae or you won't fully understand the differece.

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Jul 15 2007, 05:21 AM

Ok Thanks. This is helping so much !



- John

Posted by: Jeffrey Jul 17 2007, 04:44 PM

Hey andrew,

First off, I love your lesson on Pentatonic Major scale. I have written some theory down(just some basic stuff.) and I wanted you to look at it and tell me if im right. the way u explain the M Pentatonic is a different from what everyone has been telling me. I've just put together little pieces of everyone's work to get something I can comprehend=P Maybe I can e-mail it to you?


-Jeffrey

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 17 2007, 05:09 PM

Sure - I'll PM you my email.

Posted by: ReverandFender Aug 23 2007, 05:19 AM

How do I know when to use the Minor Pentatonic or the Major pentatonic.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 23 2007, 05:32 AM

You need to pay attention to the key the song is in. If it is in a major key you can use Major Pentatonic (or Major for that matter) if it is in a minor key you can use Minor Pentatonic (or Minor). You can also use Minor pentatonic against a mjor chord progression when you are playing the blues. So the overall answer is that it it is interrelated with what chords are being played. There is a lesson that describes the relationship between chords and scales http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=3630.

Posted by: ReverandFender Aug 25 2007, 04:11 AM

thanks that cleared it up a bit.

Posted by: fatstrat Sep 2 2007, 03:48 AM

so for instance, say the certain song we are playing is in the key of C, could we still use the same pentatonic scale shown above even though it is in the key of G? the scale that you showed us seems to encompass all major notes of the scale?

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Sep 3 2007, 04:20 AM

The simple answer is no, you need to make sure that the keys of the song and scale match. In this case, I gave you the boxes for G, if you want to play in C, you need to move the boxes up so that the root notes (marked in beige) are C, not G, i.e. you have to move each box up 5 frets.

Posted by: fatstrat Sep 3 2007, 04:41 AM

i appreciate the help greatly! one last question that i have would be- can the boxes themselves be interchanged with one another, or will they always remain constant in that order? for example: can box 1 be replaced with box 3?

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Sep 3 2007, 06:01 AM

When you are playing a solo you can pick and choose which box you use at any one time - that givcs some variety to your performance, playing higher and lower phrases. The boxes themselves have to stay exatly where they are shown for that scale (and you can move them as I described in my previous post). If you move them relative to each other they will become different scales (and you can always tell which scale they have become by checking what note the root note in the box is).

Posted by: bart m Sep 7 2007, 02:41 AM

ok...let me throw something at ya'

so assuming the first box of the G Minor Pentatonic Box is "Box 1" and the next the next 4 boxes are box 2, box 3, box 4, and box 5 respectively..does that mean there are 5 pentatonic scales for any give root note?

for instance:

Root Note = G in box 1 = G Minor Pentatonic Scale = 3 2 2 3 2 = G Bb C D F G
Root Note = G in box 2 = G Major Pentatonic Scale = 2 2 3 2 3 = G A B D E G
Root Note = G in box 3 = G ???? Scale = 2 3 2 3 2 = G A C D F G(Mixolydian Pentatonic)
Root Note = G in box 4 = G ???? Scale = 3 2 3 2 2 = G Bb C D#(Eb) F G(?????)
Root Note = G in box 5 = G ???? Scale = 2 3 2 2 3 = G A C D E G(G Minor/Major??)

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Sep 7 2007, 03:05 AM

Simple answer .... No - they are all the same scale offset by one note Keep in mind that for each box the root note moves, and that the formula always starts on the root note, so there is nothing too mysterious going on here as long as you keep that in mind.

Complex answer - you are nibbling around the edges of Pentatonic Modes here, a fascinating concept, but get the regular pentatonic down first!

EDIT : I had to rush the above post and didn't mean to sound dismissive ... modes are a fascinating concept and I have a couple of lessons about them. What you have discovered is that Pentatonic Major is Mode II of the Pentatonic Minor scale, and as you have pointed out there are 3 additional modes. This concept is more often explored with major scales where the same idea gives rise to various mode names you may have heard - Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian.

Posted by: bart m Sep 7 2007, 05:53 AM

Thanks Andrew...i didn't find you dismissive at all

Posted by: eddiecat Sep 20 2007, 11:48 PM

Hello Andrew, my name is Eddie.
Thank you so very much for your wonderful theory board, it really is of great help!
I've spent the last three weeks in here and I can't believe how much I'm actually learning.
Now to the pentatonic boxes, major and minor:
hoping that I understood the lesson concerning relative minors here's my conclusion:,
A given box of a major pentatonic is exactly the same as the box of it's relative minor.
So the five boxes of G major pentatonic are exactly the same as the five boxes of E minor pentatonic,
the only HUGE difference is the root note (E vs. G) and, of course, the formula.
The same thing would work for C and A, for example.
Now, if it is so, I'm really thrilled to bits, because besides learning the boxes for both major and minor penta,
I'm also memorizing the notes on the fretboard since I know where the different root notes are!
Thank you very, very much for your helpfulness and for the clarity within your lessons.
Greetings, Eddie

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Sep 21 2007, 01:35 AM

Hi eddie,

You are close, but lets be exact here just so there is no confusion:

A given box of a major pentatonic is exactly the same as the box of it's relative minor shifted down one pattern

For example, if you play C Major Pentatonic, that is the same as A minor pentatonic in its 2nd box - the notes are identical, just the root notes differ. So you also have to figure in that 1 box shift and you are right:)



See the answer on pentatonic major scale lesson

Posted by: eddiecat Sep 21 2007, 02:06 AM

Oh, yes! Of course.
Sorry I didn't make that clear...

Posted by: Mrblomme Dec 18 2007, 11:19 PM

I have a question.

Ok the patterns for the minor and major pentatonic scale are almost the same but the first pattern in the minor is the fifth in the major?

Is it necessary to call the first you mentioned the FIRST pattern or doesn't it matter?

Caus otherwise I would use the order of the minor caus it's easier to think of 1 thing.

Posted by: Muris Dec 18 2007, 11:50 PM

These boxes might confuse sometimes.
Deal is to stick with the root note which is C in per example C major pentatonic scale.
A minor pentatonic scale has same notes while root is A.
Same notes,same boxes,everything.

Posted by: Mrblomme Dec 19 2007, 12:06 AM

So you're telling me they're completely the same? Why should we learn both then?

Posted by: Muris Dec 19 2007, 12:12 AM

Root isn't the same,that's the point why we should learn both
and not thinking of Am pent while playing C Maj pent.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Dec 19 2007, 12:33 AM

Yes, as Muris says, although the pasterns are the same, the scales are different (because they have different roots), and you need to get the scales in your head or it will lead to confusion later, so treat them as different.

Posted by: coffeeman Dec 19 2007, 12:37 AM

And I guess is important to treat them as different to understand and play pentatonic modes too.

Posted by: PlayAllDay Dec 19 2007, 01:24 AM

They SOUND different.

Posted by: Kapto Dec 19 2007, 01:41 AM

Lol they are the same with same notes. Exactly the same patterns only the root note changes. What I do is to remember the root "this one is for major that one for minor" If its Major I start with the 2nd pattern that has the root on the 1st note if it's minor I start with the 1st pattern which has the root on the 1st note" After that I move to another pattern and try to remember the rest.
Hope this helps a bit

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Dec 19 2007, 02:25 AM

That's the key right there - they sound different because you have them organized right in your head, even though they are the same notes

And that's what practicing them as different scales will do for you ... you will practice hearing the notes in a different starting place with the correct root note, and that makes the scale sound and act different.

Posted by: PlayAllDay Dec 19 2007, 02:32 AM

Compare a minor pent with root note A and a major pent with root note A. They are not the same.

This is one way you can start to identify them by sound.

Posted by: Kapto Dec 19 2007, 11:33 AM

Of course it's not the same I compare Am with C major A major with #F minor F major with D minor and so on. So while running on 1 pattern I think to myself I am on the G major or Em Key.

Posted by: Muris Dec 19 2007, 12:06 PM

That IS what I was talking about actually.
Most of players think of Em while playing in G using pentatonic,
guess it's because we all started with minor pentatonic licks more or less,
still,it's wrong way of thinking,there are many spots when
player lays down on "wrong" note in solo,
per example,laying on E or bending from D to E while chord in progression is G.

Posted by: Mrblomme Jan 7 2008, 07:41 PM

Hi Andrew,

I have a question
If I play this box


This is a G Major pentatonic but If I want to make it an E, do I have to move UP or DOWN? Becaus if I move down from here I dont have enough frets to play an F#

Posted by: Muris Jan 7 2008, 09:32 PM

Since Andrew is ofline I'll try help

If you wanna play E Major pentatonic scale than you need to move this box 3 semi tones DOWN,
so the yellow dot will be on 12th fret on E string per example,our root note is E now.
And if you wanna play E Minor pentatonic scale then you don't need to move at all,
notes are same,just consider note E(12th fret on E string) as root now,there you go.

Posted by: Mrblomme Jan 7 2008, 09:36 PM

Yes but it's quite hard to play that low on my axe.

Posted by: Muris Jan 7 2008, 09:38 PM

That low,from 9th to 12th fret?

Posted by: Mrblomme Jan 7 2008, 09:50 PM

I dont see any dot on the 9th fret
I think its more like from the 12th to the 15th

Posted by: Muris Jan 7 2008, 09:56 PM

It's now but if you move it 3 steps down than you'll have yellow dot on 9th fret on G string
,note E,root in E major pent. scale.

Posted by: Mrblomme Jan 7 2008, 10:01 PM

Oh so in fact you have to move it UP your neck?
I think I'm a bit wrong. I say up if you go from 10 to 5 and down if you go from 5 to 10 ...

Posted by: Muris Jan 7 2008, 10:04 PM

It's DOWN 3 steps,
down means lower,
up means higher.

Posted by: Mrblomme Jan 7 2008, 10:05 PM

Hehe ok I was wrong.
Thx for the help Muris

Posted by: Muris Jan 7 2008, 10:18 PM

You're welcome.

Hope you're not making the same mistake while using elevator

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jan 7 2008, 10:20 PM

Yay, go Muris, our very own escalator theory expert And thanks for helping out as well

Posted by: Muris Jan 7 2008, 10:36 PM

Thanks Andrew

Posted by: Mrblomme Jan 7 2008, 11:22 PM

I feel stupid ...

Posted by: Muris Jan 7 2008, 11:39 PM

No need to,don't worry

Posted by: [email protected] May 15 2008, 03:51 AM

So are Major Pentatonics the same as Minor Pentatonics just shoved down the line? because i noticed the minor pentatonic on A# has the same pattern as the major pentatonic starting on G

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn May 15 2008, 12:58 PM

Yes, the patterns are the same offset by one, but this also changes the root note when you move form major to minor.

For instance A Minor pentatonic box 2 is the same pattern as C Major pentatonic box 1, BUT the root notes are A and C respectively.

In theory terms, this is because Major pentatonic is a Mode of the Moinor pentatonic scale.

Posted by: girard May 17 2008, 05:50 PM

Is the reason they "sound" different even though they are the same notes because your starting and finishing (and accenting) the root note. So when its an Am pent your completing your lick with an A and when its the C maj pent your completeting your lick with a C even though they arn't necessarily the lowest note in the box?

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn May 17 2008, 09:26 PM

Thats exactly right - and you have to train yourself to hear that root note even if it isn't there or you don't end your lick on it - in this case, perception is all important and you have to make sure you know that youare playing Am Pentatonic not C major pentatonic, and the reason you know is that ropot note, or the fact that you understand that is the root note in your head.

Posted by: MESHUGGAH Jul 1 2008, 06:55 PM

What is the first box in major and in minor?

The reason for my question is that my friend got this pattern from his guitar teacher: And said it was in e but I think its in G major

-------------------------------0--3------------------------------
------------------------0--3-------------------------------------
-----------------0--2--------------------------------------------
----------0--2--------------------------------------------------
--0--3-----------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------3--5--------------------------
------------------------------3--5--------------------------------------
-----------------------2--4---------------------------------------------
----------------2--5----------------------------------------------------
--------2--5-----------------------------------------------------------
-3--5--------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by: kaznie_NL Jul 1 2008, 07:15 PM

The top pattern is Em or Gmaj. E is G's relative minor. The top one is also the first box of the Minor Pentatonic and bottom one is the second one.

Posted by: MESHUGGAH Jul 1 2008, 07:19 PM

but if i start with the secnd pattern it becomes Gmajor ? why???

Posted by: DeepRoots Jul 5 2008, 12:39 AM

Here's food for thought:

notes in E minor pentatonic: E G A B D

notes in G major pentatonic: G A B D E

So their patterns will be the same, because the notes are the same! Go ahead and find all the notes i said above on the fretboard for both scales and you'll find that they both share the same patterns.

So whats the difference?

When practising the scales: The difference is which note you decide to use as you root note, or "home" note. Using G as the root note will give a happier sound to the scale when compared to using E, this is because when using G as the root note we are implying that we are playing a G major pentatonic scale, and when we use E as the root note we are implying that we are playing E minor pentatonic scale. A good way to get this "root" idea in your head is by practising them starting and ending on either E or G, and compare the sound.

When playing the scales: We could use the patterns over different chords, for example, over a G major chord it will sound happier than over a E minor chord. This is because the underlying chord implies what the root note of the scale is. Trying recording these notes, a looped E note for a few minutes, and also a G note for a few minutes. Use the same patterns and listen to the difference. Then try the same little exercise with an E minor and a G major chord.

So as you can see- they share the same notes, and the same patterns, but it is the root note that is either implied by our melody (the note with the finished/home sound is the root note) or the underlying chords that decide which of the two scales it is.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 6 2008, 02:28 PM

Couldn't have said it better myself

Posted by: bryant Sep 30 2013, 03:13 PM

Yes, I see. But once you are in the middle of the solo playing these five notes per say, the solo doesn't necessarily know which note you started on and CAN, in fact, be considered at any point in time in the key of Aminor OR C major, OR, D second box, etc. My ultimate question is then: HOW do we actually make the minor feel vary from the major feel once the solo is in progress and only those five notes are being played in various combinations.




What's the best way to train yourself to hear and/or feel that root note?

Posted by: The Professor Sep 30 2013, 09:27 PM

Good question about major and minor sounds. It is mostly based on the chords that you are playing over. If the chord is Am and you play Am pentatonic then it will sound minor. If you have a C chord and you play Am pentatonic, then it will sound major. Think about the relationship of the chord below your solo as what defines major vs. minor.

To test this, put on an Am to C backing track and solo over it using the A minor pent scale. Listen to how the notes sound minor over Am, then the same notes sound major over C, it's the chord that makes it sound major or minor, not the scale itself. Hope that makes sense.

Posted by: bryant Sep 30 2013, 11:48 PM

Ok, good. I understand that, but earlier it was stated that to play major pentatonic scale over major chords to sound more rock style, and to play minor pentatonic over a minor or blues progression to get that "minor feel" or to sound bluesy. But now we're saying it does NOT matter what scale is played as the rhythm player playing the underlying chords is going to create that feel. More confused now????

Posted by: klasaine Oct 1 2013, 04:15 AM

That's more of a 'phrasing' thing. I would advise to always take with a grain of salt when you hear or see the words: "you'll sound more rock if ..." or "you'll sound jazzier if ...".
Any collection of notes - any - can sound rock or jazz or klezmer or whatever depending on how you play them.

Posted by: The Professor Oct 1 2013, 07:43 AM

There are two ways to look at this, that is the second way. If you have a C chord and you play a C major pent scale it will sound more rock or country, but if you play a C minor pent scale it will sound more bluesy.

Try this out.

Put on a C backing track, solo over that chord with a C major pent scale for a while, then switch to a C minor pent scale, and notice that since it is a static chord, now the scale changes the sound of that chord from major to a more bluesy sound.

It is good to read about theory like this, but a lot of the times reading only can cause confusion. So make sure to test these theories out on the guitar, then your ears will get involved and it should make more sense, the theory plus the application.

Posted by: bryant Oct 1 2013, 12:19 PM

Yes, that makes sense, also because c minor pent and c major pent are two different scales. My question was really referring to different scale modes that contain the same notes, ex. What if I play an Eb major pent over that c chord, instead of a c minor pent over that c chord. Once I get started into it, the c chord doesn't remember the note that I started with, i.e. root note. As it was stated earlier that the root note makes all the difference in the sound. Then it was restated that the underlying chord does?

Posted by: The Professor Oct 1 2013, 12:47 PM

That's it, C minor and Eb major pent have the same notes, they are just different fingerings on the guitar. So both will produce the same sound over a C chord, or Eb chord, because you are just repeating the same notes in a different part of the fingerboard. That's all.