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GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ Alternative Vs Economy
Posted by: Chokehold Jul 21 2009, 10:02 PM
I have never before thought about the way I pick, and thought that what I did was alternative.
And a few days ago I sat down and looked at what I did. Of course it was Economy picking.
But I don't see why you would want to play Alternative picking, as Economy let's you move faster between the strings.
So is there a reason to why you would want to play Alternative, and what is good about it?
And same question about Economy Picking.
Need some answers. 
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 21 2009, 10:10 PM
Long time question.
So, the thing is, alternate and economy are quite different,
they sound different, they give you different results,
they offer you different ideas once you master them nicely etc.
And no, you cannot play everything with economy,
try 2nps patterns like pentatonic runs and you'll realize.
Same thing goes for alternate, when you cannot play it with alternate
then most likely economy is the way to go.
Practice both, they are both useful
tho alternate has few advantages more.
Posted by: Emir Hot Jul 21 2009, 10:19 PM
I am personaly a fan of alternate picking but sometimes I use economy for a better approach in horizontal scale patterns and arpeggios. There is a big differnce between the two. If I demonstrate you some fast 16th triplets licks you would realize that there is probably no human being that could posibly execute that with economy picking. The same applies the other way around. I agree with Muris. Learn both and use them when appropriate.
Posted by: Chokehold Jul 21 2009, 10:23 PM
QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 21 2009, 11:10 PM) 
Long time question.
So, the thing is, alternate and economy are quite different,
they sound different, they give you different results,
they offer you different ideas once you master them nicely etc.
And no, you cannot play everything with economy,
try 2nps patterns like pentatonic runs and you'll realize.
Same thing goes for alternate, when you cannot play it with alternate
then most likely economy is the way to go.
Practice both, they are both useful
tho alternate has few advantages more.
So, the thing is, alternate and economy are quite different,
they sound different, they give you different results,
they offer you different ideas once you master them nicely etc.
And no, you cannot play everything with economy,
try 2nps patterns like pentatonic runs and you'll realize.
Same thing goes for alternate, when you cannot play it with alternate
then most likely economy is the way to go.
Practice both, they are both useful
tho alternate has few advantages more.
Thank you.
You know your stuff so I will start practice alternative as soon as possible, it's my worst area in techniques.
And practicing what you are worst at = faster progress someone here at GMC said, and that only motivates me.
Posted by: Fingerspasm Jul 21 2009, 10:24 PM
I usually refrain from answering technical questions since I am not an instructor. But I went through the same thing when I started playing. I had been playing about 6 months and I used economy picking. I thought there is no way that this is not the best way to play its just seemed so much easier. Then I decided I wanted to shred. So I started to watch and play Paul Gilbert Riffs. Pretty soon I started to get stuck. When I say stuck I mean I would lose my rhythm and crash right in the middle of a run. To make a long story short the only way I could advance was to learn how to use strict alternate picking.
I still use economy picking but mainly when I play blues or something that has a lot of Legato. I should mention when I was playing the Paul Gilbert runs it was all picking no Legato and thats why I would crash. You can still get away with it if you use legato because of the pause in between the picking. But try a very long run up or down the neck that is all picking and for me there is no better way than alternate picking. Do not take this as gospel its just the experience that I had with the two different forms of picking. 
Plus I like the more percussive sound that alternate picking has.
Posted by: Chokehold Jul 21 2009, 10:25 PM
QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 21 2009, 11:19 PM)
I agree with Muris. Learn both and use them when appropriate.
Will do.
Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Jul 21 2009, 10:32 PM
Same thing happened to me man.
Do your 1-2-3-4 4-3-2-1 1-3-2-4 4-2-3-1 and etc. etc exercise like 15 minutes a day. Good way to practice different fingering patterns and break that trap your in. Playing on all those frets with strict alternate picking. The challenge for me was doing 3 note per string runs. Try playing one slow alternate picking after doing economy for so long and you will see why 
Posted by: Chokehold Jul 21 2009, 11:58 PM
QUOTE (Fingerspasm @ Jul 21 2009, 11:24 PM)
I usually refrain from answering technical questions since I am not an instructor. But I went through the same thing when I started playing. I had been playing about 6 months and I used economy picking. I thought there is no way that this is not the best way to play its just seemed so much easier. Then I decided I wanted to shred. So I started to watch and play Paul Gilbert Riffs. Pretty soon I started to get stuck. When I say stuck I mean I would lose my rhythm and crash right in the middle of a run. To make a long story short the only way I could advance was to learn how to use strict alternate picking.
I still use economy picking but mainly when I play blues or something that has a lot of Legato. I should mention when I was playing the Paul Gilbert runs it was all picking no Legato and thats why I would crash. You can still get away with it if you use legato because of the pause in between the picking. But try a very long run up or down the neck that is all picking and for me there is no better way than alternate picking. Do not take this as gospel its just the experience that I had with the two different forms of picking. Plus I like the more percussive sound that alternate picking has.
I still use economy picking but mainly when I play blues or something that has a lot of Legato. I should mention when I was playing the Paul Gilbert runs it was all picking no Legato and thats why I would crash. You can still get away with it if you use legato because of the pause in between the picking. But try a very long run up or down the neck that is all picking and for me there is no better way than alternate picking. Do not take this as gospel its just the experience that I had with the two different forms of picking.
Plus I like the more percussive sound that alternate picking has.I think that I will advance when I learn to alter between them, so it's pretty much the same as you.
QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Jul 21 2009, 11:32 PM)
Same thing happened to me man.
Do your 1-2-3-4 4-3-2-1 1-3-2-4 4-2-3-1 and etc. etc exercise like 15 minutes a day. Good way to practice different fingering patterns and break that trap your in. Playing on all those frets with strict alternate picking. The challenge for me was doing 3 note per string runs. Try playing one slow alternate picking after doing economy for so long and you will see why
Do your 1-2-3-4 4-3-2-1 1-3-2-4 4-2-3-1 and etc. etc exercise like 15 minutes a day. Good way to practice different fingering patterns and break that trap your in. Playing on all those frets with strict alternate picking. The challenge for me was doing 3 note per string runs. Try playing one slow alternate picking after doing economy for so long and you will see why
I have already started, and I can do it slow at least.
And I do know what you mean, I feel like a beginner again.
Posted by: vampire18 Jul 22 2009, 01:10 AM
just wanted to add that i had the exact same problem and i think the biggest advantages of alterante are predictabilty and even tone on every stroke. really 90% of the time alternate is the way to go, thogh i gotta say sometimes when i have to do and outside change on a very fast lick i do cheat and do like a 2 string sweep if it helps some of the following to be easier or inside strokes
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 22 2009, 01:29 AM
You might wanna try http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/alternate-picking-upstroke-focus/ lesson in as well,
it should prepare you nicely for many kinds of
"unforseen" situations.
Posted by: lcsdds Jul 22 2009, 03:49 AM
QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 01:29 AM)
You might wanna try http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/alternate-picking-upstroke-focus/ lesson in as well,
it should prepare you nicely for many kinds of
"unforseen" situations.
it should prepare you nicely for many kinds of
"unforseen" situations.
Good lesson....
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 22 2009, 11:53 AM
Emir and Muris are right!
Both techniques have different applications and are equally useful.
We can go on about it and mention players that rarely (if ever) use alternate (Holdsworth, Gambale) or talk about guys that rarely use economy (Gilbert for example!). Bottom line is why not practice both ?
Posted by: Zeyth Jul 22 2009, 03:10 PM
http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDirectionalPicking.aspx
"And no, you cannot play everything with economy,
try 2nps patterns like pentatonic runs and you'll realize."
I'd say the picking pattern for that would simply be the same for alternate and economy picking.
And since there are virtuosos who use alternate picking, and virtuosos who use economy picking, I'd think it's more of a choice, or taste, than anything else.
"fast 16th triplets licks you would realize that there is probably no human being that could posibly execute that with economy picking"
As economy picking has less wasted motion, shouldn't it, theoretically, be possible to play faster using economy picking than alternate picking?
Then again, I think that just comes down to practice 
Posted by: Chokehold Jul 22 2009, 03:23 PM
QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 02:29 AM)
You might wanna try http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/alternate-picking-upstroke-focus/ lesson in as well,
it should prepare you nicely for many kinds of
"unforseen" situations.
it should prepare you nicely for many kinds of
"unforseen" situations.
Started on it now.
Posted by: lcsdds Jul 22 2009, 05:56 PM
QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 22 2009, 03:23 PM)
Started on it now.
I personally think economy comes in most handy when using it in conjunction with legato.......
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 22 2009, 06:08 PM
QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 22 2009, 04:23 PM)
Started on it now.
Good!
QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 22 2009, 06:56 PM)
I personally think economy comes in most handy when using it in conjunction with legato.......
Depends of a player Monte, take Frank Gambale per example,
he's using economy without any hammer-ons or pull-offs most often.
Some other guys use it combined with legato, true.
Posted by: Emir Hot Jul 22 2009, 06:14 PM
QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 03:10 PM)
As economy picking has less wasted motion, shouldn't it, theoretically, be possible to play faster using economy picking than alternate picking?
Then again, I think that just comes down to practice
Then again, I think that just comes down to practice
I don't know what level you are but I am pretty sure that no person can economy pick this in 160bpm, 16th triplets
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
Even is someone is able to do it I think that's ridiculous to waste time practicing like that when AP is much easier and sounds better in these situations
Posted by: lcsdds Jul 22 2009, 06:28 PM
QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 06:08 PM)
Depends of a player Monte, take Frank Gambale per example,
he's using economy without any hammer-ons or pull-offs most often.
Some other guys use it combined with legato, true.
he's using economy without any hammer-ons or pull-offs most often.
Some other guys use it combined with legato, true.
So true Muris. One thing I remember you saying when I was debating about sticking with economy or working on alternate picking was you said that with economy it was "show me the lick".....you have to "design' your licks to work with economy. With alternate I think if you break down the mechanics and get those different pick strokes that occur when changing strings down that alternate is a much better technique. I definitely didn't think this until you really started helping me with my AP. Thanks for that Muris.......\m/\m/
QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 22 2009, 06:14 PM)
I don't know what level you are but I am pretty sure that no person can economy pick this in 160bpm, 16th triplets
Even is someone is able to do it I think that's ridiculous to waste time practicing like that when AP is much easier and sounds better in these situations
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
Even is someone is able to do it I think that's ridiculous to waste time practicing like that when AP is much easier and sounds better in these situations
Spot on Emir.......I wasted A LOT of time trying to get everything to work with economy. Now I do everything AP. I only use economy now when I am doing legato.
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 22 2009, 07:32 PM
QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 22 2009, 07:14 PM)
I don't know what level you are but I am pretty sure that no person can economy pick this in 160bpm, 16th triplets
Even is someone is able to do it I think that's ridiculous to waste time practicing like that when AP is much easier and sounds better in these situations
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
Even is someone is able to do it I think that's ridiculous to waste time practicing like that when AP is much easier and sounds better in these situations
Well, that kind of lick just isn't made to work with economy bro.
You can sweep between B and E strings once but then you'll get stuck by
downstroke on 3rd note on high E.
That's born for alternate.
QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 22 2009, 07:28 PM)
So true Muris. One thing I remember you saying when I was debating about sticking with economy or working on alternate picking was you said that with economy it was "show me the lick".....you have to "design' your licks to work with economy. With alternate I think if you break down the mechanics and get those different pick strokes that occur when changing strings down that alternate is a much better technique. I definitely didn't think this until you really started helping me with my AP. Thanks for that Muris.......\m/\m/
Yeah, economy most often works with "prepared" licks
and with any kind of uneven notes per string runs, cheers.
Posted by: Emir Hot Jul 22 2009, 07:42 PM
QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 07:32 PM)
Well, that kind of lick just isn't made to work with economy bro.
You can sweep between B and E strings once but then you'll get stuck by
downstroke on 3rd note on high E.
That's born for alternate.
You can sweep between B and E strings once but then you'll get stuck by
downstroke on 3rd note on high E.
That's born for alternate.
If you hammer on notes on the 1st string then in theory you could play it with economy but still that's nonsense to me
Posted by: Chokehold Jul 22 2009, 07:43 PM
Just a quick question, how long will it take until I can play it flawless?
It's not like a year, or?
Posted by: Emir Hot Jul 22 2009, 07:49 PM
QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 22 2009, 07:43 PM)
Just a quick question, how long will it take until I can play it flawless?
It's not like a year, or?
It's not like a year, or?
That's really individial. Depends how much you practice. Someone might get it quicker and someone not. But everyone can get there eventualy.
Posted by: Zeyth Jul 22 2009, 08:00 PM
http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDirectionalPicking.aspx
Anyone read that yet?
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
And I can't see why this wouldn't work with the directional picking (things have many names
) described in the article I've linked to. ( http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDirectionalPicking.aspx )Aside from that, please explain why "alternate sounds better"??
Posted by: lcsdds Jul 22 2009, 08:18 PM
QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 08:00 PM)
http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDirectionalPicking.aspx
Anyone read that yet?
And I can't see why this wouldn't work with the directional picking (things have many names) described in the article I've linked to. ( http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDirectionalPicking.aspx )
Aside from that, please explain why "alternate sounds better"??
Anyone read that yet?
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
And I can't see why this wouldn't work with the directional picking (things have many names
) described in the article I've linked to. ( http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDirectionalPicking.aspx )Aside from that, please explain why "alternate sounds better"??
It wouldn't work because every time you change strings on a two string lick like that you are changing direction. To change the direction your pick is moving.....from a higher string to a lower string or vice versa.....you need an EVEN number of notes on the string so you can "sweep" it. If you start that lick on an upstroke then when you are ready to change strings your pick will be moving up and you want it to be moving down......if you start on a down stroke your pick will be going in the right direction to sweep to the E string. So you will start picking the E string with a downstroke and when you are ready to move back to the B string your pick will be going down instead of up......to change directions you need an even number of notes on the string. This is why economy picking licks need to be "planned" out for the most part. Unless you are Frank Gambale and it is just so ingrained in your muscle memory that you don't have to think about it anymore. But he just has a billion stock licks that he combines I would imagine. Economy picking fits a specific mathmatical formula.......Odd number of notes on a string to keep your pick going in the same direction and an even number to change your picking direction.
Posted by: Zeyth Jul 22 2009, 08:48 PM
QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 22 2009, 08:18 PM)
It wouldn't work because every time you change strings on a two string lick like that you are changing direction. To change the direction your pick is moving.....from a higher string to a lower string or vice versa.....you need an EVEN number of notes on the string so you can "sweep" it. If you start that lick on an upstroke then when you are ready to change strings your pick will be moving up and you want it to be moving down......if you start on a down stroke your pick will be going in the right direction to sweep to the E string. So you will start picking the E string with a downstroke and when you are ready to move back to the B string your pick will be going down instead of up......to change directions you need an even number of notes on the string. This is why economy picking licks need to be "planned" out for the most part. Unless you are Frank Gambale and it is just so ingrained in your muscle memory that you don't have to think about it anymore. But he just has a billion stock licks that he combines I would imagine. Economy picking fits a specific mathmatical formula.......Odd number of notes on a string to keep your pick going in the same direction and an even number to change your picking direction.
Then I must have discovered a whole new picking technique: Zeyth picking
Or someone hasn't read the article I linked to
Tab 1 A and B
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
A D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D U
B U D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
Edited tab to feature the two possible picking patterns to use with alternate picking (correct me if I'm wrong
)
Tab 2
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
D U D D U D ERROR!!!!!!!!!
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
This is what you try to say?
If we take economy picking, and add a little wasted motion, couldn't we get something similar to:
Tab 3
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
D U D D U D D U D D U D D U D D U D
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
Likewise:
Tab 4
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
U D U U D U U D U U D U U D U U D U
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
Both of these two "economies" feature less wasted motion than tab 1 A.
Of course due to the... String jumping? One could say that it's not really economy picking, but I think economy is more about spending as little as possible, than spending nothing at all
The unfamour Zeyth picking pattern
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
D U D D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
I would also like to apologize for any displacements when it comes to having the symbols of the picking pattern above the fret-numbers, and I might as well just excuse my humour while I'm at it
Posted by: lcsdds Jul 22 2009, 09:02 PM
Not trying to be a jerk Zeyth.....but I don't need to read the article to know that that lick WILL NOT work with economy picking.....at least not achieving any kind of speed and smoothness it won't. Economy picking is a simple mathematical concept.....especially if we are talking about being able to play those 16th triplets at 160 bpm. Muris said in his post that that lick is not set up for economy picking and Emir said you could only do it if you add on a hammer-on.
Again....not trying to be a jerk.
Posted by: Zeyth Jul 22 2009, 09:08 PM
QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 22 2009, 09:02 PM)
Not trying to be a jerk Zeyth.....but I don't need to read the article to know that that lick WILL NOT work with economy picking.....at least not achieving any kind of speed and smoothness it won't. Economy picking is a simple mathematical concept.....especially if we are talking about being able to play those 16th triplets at 160 bpm. Muris said in his post that that lick is not set up for economy picking and Emir said you could only do it if you add on a hammer-on.
Again....not trying to be a jerk.
Muris said in his post that that lick is not set up for economy picking and Emir said you could only do it if you add on a hammer-on.Again....not trying to be a jerk.
Ah, but when I read the article, I found that it offered a new idea I hadn't seen written anywhere else before.
Then again, I haven't read every article about economy picking written, either.
Posted by: lcsdds Jul 22 2009, 09:14 PM
QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 09:08 PM)
Ah, but when I read the article, I found that it offered a new idea I hadn't seen written anywhere else before.
Then again, I haven't read every article about economy picking written, either.
Then again, I haven't read every article about economy picking written, either.
But Zeyth.....the point of Economy picking is to ELIMINATE pick strokes. The way you those licks tabbed to pick you are actually adding pick strokes. Try picking it the way you have it written for your ZEYTH picking.......it will become glaringly apparent that you will never achieve any kind of speed doing it that way.
Posted by: Emir Hot Jul 22 2009, 09:21 PM
QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 08:00 PM)
Anyone read that yet?
And I can't see why this wouldn't work with the directional picking (things have many names) described in the article I've linked to. ( http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDirectionalPicking.aspx )
Aside from that, please explain why "alternate sounds better"??
And I can't see why this wouldn't work with the directional picking (things have many names
) described in the article I've linked to. ( http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDirectionalPicking.aspx )Aside from that, please explain why "alternate sounds better"??
I have read it and I can tell you that this guy is retarded. Look at this sentence:
"However it takes a LONGER time to master alternate picking than it does directional picking due to excess movement that the technique requires. Moreover, it is not as ergonomically efficient thus increasing the risk of possible injury."
When I saw this I stopped reading. It is not true that it takes LONGER time neither that can cause an injury. The truth is that this guy learned to use economy picking and of course now it would take him ages to change to alternate. Where are the references in his story? He can't just talk from personal experience.
And about why alternate sounds better, I actually didn't say that. If you want to sound more agressive then you should go for alternate picking as every note has its own attack. If you economy pick a lick, it will sound softer and smoother. That's why jazz guys use it because it colors the sound different. When you make that double downstroke movement in economy picked lick, the second (sweeped) note won't have as much attack and therefore the connection between the two will be softer. Think about why very fast 5 or 6 string arpeggio sounds nice when you sweep it all from top to bottom like Yngwie does (especially on the neck pickup position). Imagine now if such arpeggio was alternate picked in that speed. It would sound nothing softer than a machine gun. That's why both techniques have their use in different situation. For the lick that I posted, AP is the right way to go as that one needs to be as agressive as possible. That lick just asks for that and it is very obvious that it sounds much tighter if you alternate pick it. Try it yourself if you don't trust me
Posted by: Zeyth Jul 22 2009, 09:22 PM
QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 22 2009, 09:14 PM)
But Zeyth.....the point of Economy picking is to ELIMINATE pick strokes. The way you those licks tabbed to pick you are actually adding pick strokes. Try picking it the way you have it written for your ZEYTH picking.......it will become glaringly apparent that you will never achieve any kind of speed doing it that way.
Adding pick strokes?
Eliminate pick strokes?
Now I'm just confused.
How can jumping from the e to b string, and then go d,u,d,and d down onto the e string equal more pick strokes?
And my Zeyth picking feature very little wasted motion, thank you.
Posted by: lcsdds Jul 22 2009, 09:32 PM
QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 09:22 PM)
Adding pick strokes?
Eliminate pick strokes?
Now I'm just confused.
How can jumping from the e to b string, and then go d,u,d,and d down onto the e string equal more pick strokes?
And my Zeyth picking feature very little wasted motion, thank you.
Eliminate pick strokes?
Now I'm just confused.
How can jumping from the e to b string, and then go d,u,d,and d down onto the e string equal more pick strokes?
And my Zeyth picking feature very little wasted motion, thank you.
I don't think you understand what economy picking is. Your Zeyth picking is just a combination of economy and alternate. You used economy to change from B to E string and then stuck with alternate to go back from E to B.....because economy won't work in that situation. At least not economy the way it is meant to be used.
I agree 100% with Emir an that article. Tom Hess is in the business of selling "private" lessons with him so of course he going to tell you that Economy/directional picking is better. I have heard Frank Gambale......who is to Economy picking what EVH is to tapping.....say that Economy picking is MORE DIFFICULT to master than AP. Emir has spoken to him personally and Frank told him that Economy picking won't work for everything......it needs to be planned.
Posted by: Zeyth Jul 22 2009, 09:34 PM
QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 22 2009, 09:21 PM)
I have read it and I can tell you that this guy is retarded. Look at this sentence:
"However it takes a LONGER time to master alternate picking than it does directional picking due to excess movement that the technique requires. Moreover, it is not as ergonomically efficient thus increasing the risk of possible injury."
When I saw this I stopped reading. It is not true that it takes LONGER time neither that can cause an injury. The truth is that this guy learned to use economy picking and of course now it would take him ages to change to alternate. Where are the references in his story? He can't just talk from personal experience.
And about why alternate sounds better, I actually didn't say that. If you want to sound more agressive then you should go for alternate picking as every note has its own attack. If you economy pick a lick, it will sound softer and smoother. That's why jazz guys use it because it colors the sound different. When you make that double downstroke movement in economy picked lick, the second (sweeped) note won't have as much attack and therefore the connection between the two will be softer. Think about why very fast 5 or 6 string arpeggio sounds nice when you sweep it all from top to bottom like Yngwie does (especially on the neck pickup position). Imagine now if such arpeggio was alternate picked in that speed. It would sound nothing softer than a machine gun. That's why both techniques have their use in different situation. For the lick that I posted, AP is the right way to go as that one needs to be as agressive as possible. That lick just asks for that and it is very obvious that it sounds much tighter if you alternate pick it. Try it yourself if you don't trust me
"However it takes a LONGER time to master alternate picking than it does directional picking due to excess movement that the technique requires. Moreover, it is not as ergonomically efficient thus increasing the risk of possible injury."
When I saw this I stopped reading. It is not true that it takes LONGER time neither that can cause an injury. The truth is that this guy learned to use economy picking and of course now it would take him ages to change to alternate. Where are the references in his story? He can't just talk from personal experience.
And about why alternate sounds better, I actually didn't say that. If you want to sound more agressive then you should go for alternate picking as every note has its own attack. If you economy pick a lick, it will sound softer and smoother. That's why jazz guys use it because it colors the sound different. When you make that double downstroke movement in economy picked lick, the second (sweeped) note won't have as much attack and therefore the connection between the two will be softer. Think about why very fast 5 or 6 string arpeggio sounds nice when you sweep it all from top to bottom like Yngwie does (especially on the neck pickup position). Imagine now if such arpeggio was alternate picked in that speed. It would sound nothing softer than a machine gun. That's why both techniques have their use in different situation. For the lick that I posted, AP is the right way to go as that one needs to be as agressive as possible. That lick just asks for that and it is very obvious that it sounds much tighter if you alternate pick it. Try it yourself if you don't trust me
He states further down that he first used economy as a beginner, then changed to alternate when he got a guitar teacher, and has changed back after a long time using alternate picking, and than economy picking felt more natural than ever for him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_fE0DkPuG4 << The author of the article, playing. Whee.
The injury he talks about is most likely injury from repeated motions, due to up,down,up,down,up, down, up, down
On the other hand: More agressive? I just might change picking style
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 22 2009, 09:53 PM
QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 22 2009, 08:42 PM)
If you hammer on notes on the 1st string then in theory you could play it with economy but still that's nonsense to me
Well yeah, that would be nonsense indeed,
point of economy picking IS to play as many notes as possible
with the pick which means to use one downstroke or upstroke
for 2 notes on 2 different strings, just like small sweeps.
Rest of the notes should be played with the pick
so it's like mix of sweeping and alternate,
otherwise it'd be just sweeping.
QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 22 2009, 10:21 PM)
I have read it and I can tell you that this guy is retarded. Look at this sentence:
"However it takes a LONGER time to master alternate picking than it does directional picking due to excess movement that the technique requires. Moreover, it is not as ergonomically efficient thus increasing the risk of possible injury."
When I saw this I stopped reading. It is not true that it takes LONGER time neither that can cause an injury. The truth is that this guy learned to use economy picking and of course now it would take him ages to change to alternate.
"However it takes a LONGER time to master alternate picking than it does directional picking due to excess movement that the technique requires. Moreover, it is not as ergonomically efficient thus increasing the risk of possible injury."
When I saw this I stopped reading. It is not true that it takes LONGER time neither that can cause an injury. The truth is that this guy learned to use economy picking and of course now it would take him ages to change to alternate.
Brilliant
Posted by: Chokehold Jul 22 2009, 09:56 PM
QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 09:48 PM)
The unfamour Zeyth picking pattern
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
D U D D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
This is how I have picked everything so far, I thought it was economy but I'm just another noob then.
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 22 2009, 09:57 PM
QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 10:22 PM)
Adding pick strokes?
Eliminate pick strokes?
Now I'm just confused.
How can jumping from the e to b string, and then go d,u,d,and d down onto the e string equal more pick strokes?
And my Zeyth picking feature very little wasted motion, thank you.
Eliminate pick strokes?
Now I'm just confused.
How can jumping from the e to b string, and then go d,u,d,and d down onto the e string equal more pick strokes?
And my Zeyth picking feature very little wasted motion, thank you.
Eliminating strokes, yeah.
Economy picking has a meaning when you're crossing 2 different strings,
you use either one downstroke or one upstroke to play both strings.
And it's very effective for 3nps runs.
Let say you play 3nps over all 6 string with alternate, that's 18 strokes.
And if you do it with economy you get 13 strokes.
Or should I said picking motions cause stroke is needed for each note.
Posted by: Emir Hot Jul 22 2009, 09:58 PM
QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 09:34 PM)
He states further down that he first used economy as a beginner, then changed to alternate when he got a guitar teacher, and has changed back after a long time using alternate picking, and than economy picking felt more natural than ever for him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_fE0DkPuG4 << The author of the article, playing. Whee.
The injury he talks about is most likely injury from repeated motions, due to up,down,up,down,up, down, up, down
On the other hand: More agressive? I just might change picking style
The injury he talks about is most likely injury from repeated motions, due to up,down,up,down,up, down, up, down
On the other hand: More agressive? I just might change picking style
I've just seen his video and laughed more than when I first saw Michael Angelo's first instructional video 20 years ago. Today there are 50.000 players in the world like this guy. Just bunch of shred licks, fast scales and nothing else. I do appreciate his technique and time spent for mastering it but I don't think I would buy his album.
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 22 2009, 10:00 PM
QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 22 2009, 10:56 PM)
This is how I have picked everything so far, I thought it was economy but I'm just another noob then.
It was economy but also alternate as well,
take a look how you switch back to B string after high E,
you end with downstroke on high E and then you use upstroke for B,
that's VERY outside for picking
and you would never get into same situation if you used straight alternate picking,
you would end with an upstroke on high E string and B string is in the same direction, up.
Posted by: lcsdds Jul 22 2009, 10:02 PM
QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 22 2009, 09:58 PM)
I've just seen his video and laughed more than when I first saw Michael Angelo's first instructional video 20 years ago. Today there are 50.000 players in the world like this guy. Just bunch of shred licks, fast scales and nothing else. I do appreciate his technique and time spent for mastering it but I don't think I would buy his album.
Did you leave a comment Emir.....
Posted by: Chokehold Jul 22 2009, 10:02 PM
QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 11:00 PM)
It was economy but also alternate as well,
take a look how you switch back to B string after high E,
you end with downstroke on high E and then you use upstroke for B,
that's VERY outside for picking
and you would never get into same situation if you used straight alternate picking,
you would end with an upstroke on high E string and B string is in the same direction, up.
take a look how you switch back to B string after high E,
you end with downstroke on high E and then you use upstroke for B,
that's VERY outside for picking
and you would never get into same situation if you used straight alternate picking,
you would end with an upstroke on high E string and B string is in the same direction, up.
So what do you call it then?
Posted by: Emir Hot Jul 22 2009, 10:04 PM
QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 22 2009, 10:02 PM)
Did you leave a comment Emir.....
hahaha NO
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 22 2009, 10:06 PM
QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 22 2009, 11:02 PM)
So what do you call it then?
Mix of both I would say,
you used 2 techniques to execute that very 3nps pattern.
But yeah, you made it VERY difficult for you by using economy (sweep)
right from the start, that putted you in outside picking.
Posted by: lcsdds Jul 22 2009, 10:07 PM
QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 22 2009, 10:02 PM)
So what do you call it then?
It's a hybrid of both alternate and economy........That lick is IMPOSSIBLE to play with Econmomy picking......at least defined like Muris has defined it.
Posted by: Chokehold Jul 22 2009, 10:22 PM
QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 11:06 PM)
But yeah, you made it VERY difficult for you by using economy (sweep)
right from the start, that putted you in outside picking.
right from the start, that putted you in outside picking.
Damn. I feel sad now.
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 22 2009, 10:26 PM
QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 22 2009, 11:22 PM)
Damn. I feel sad now.
Happens, cheer up!
Posted by: Chokehold Jul 22 2009, 10:48 PM
QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 11:26 PM)
Happens, cheer up!
Yeah I will, going to watch a movie and get on with practicing more tomorrow.
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 22 2009, 10:49 PM
QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 22 2009, 11:48 PM)
Yeah I will, going to watch a movie and get on with practicing more tomorrow.
Well that aint the spirit I was looking for
but movie is movie.
Posted by: Chokehold Jul 23 2009, 12:15 AM
QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 11:49 PM)
Well that aint the spirit I was looking for
but movie is movie.
but movie is movie.
It's almost half past 1 AM, and my whole family is asleep.
Not much I can do.
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 23 2009, 12:17 AM
QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 23 2009, 01:15 AM)
It's almost half past 1 AM, and my whole family is asleep.
Not much I can do.
Not much I can do.
Holy headphones.
Posted by: lcsdds Jul 23 2009, 12:19 AM
QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 23 2009, 12:17 AM)
Holy headphones.
Muris has a solution for everything.........just accept it.....
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 23 2009, 12:20 AM
QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 23 2009, 01:19 AM)
Muris has a solution for everything.........just accept it.....
Come and see me, I'm using headphones ALL the time.
Posted by: Chokehold Jul 23 2009, 12:24 AM
QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 23 2009, 01:19 AM)
Muris has a solution for everything.........just accept it.....
He's like the Wikipedia man of music.
Will get some headphones when I buy myself a POD in a few month, then I will practice all day and all night. Happy?
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 23 2009, 12:26 AM
QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 23 2009, 01:24 AM)
He's like the Wikipedia man of music.
Will get some headphones when I buy myself a POD in a few month, then I will practice all day and all night. Happy?
Will get some headphones when I buy myself a POD in a few month, then I will practice all day and all night. Happy?
Happy I am
Posted by: Vasilije Vukmirovic Jul 23 2009, 07:12 PM
When you play economy, you always compromise sound. On the other hand, it's natural to play economy when you going down, from low E. Try to combine those two. If you play neoclassical metal, economy picking is essential, if not, it is not so important!
Posted by: lcsdds Jul 23 2009, 08:11 PM
QUOTE (Vasilije Vukmirovic @ Jul 23 2009, 07:12 PM)
......If you play neoclassical metal, economy picking is essential, if not, it is not so important!
Why is this Vasilije??? Emir play neoclassical and I think he rarely uses economy picking..
Posted by: Jose Mena Jul 23 2009, 08:24 PM
QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 23 2009, 03:11 PM)
Why is this Vasilije??? Emir play neoclassical and I think he rarely uses economy picking..
I guess he means that neoclassical metal uses a lot of sweep arpeggios, but I think most don't consider this economy. I guess sweeping falls into the economy picking category but not limited to arpeggios but to everything even playing an ascending or descending run.
I like the sound of economy, and of alternate, being able to do both is a plus in my opinion.
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 23 2009, 10:39 PM
QUOTE (Jose Mena @ Jul 23 2009, 09:24 PM)
I like the sound of economy, and of alternate, being able to do both is a plus in my opinion.
Yep.
Posted by: Ivan Zecic Jul 23 2009, 10:39 PM
Instead of discussing advantages and disadvantages of alternate and economy picking, you could've spent that time practising both techniques hahaha
You should be familiar with both techniques, but mastering only one technique will be enough. It's all just a matter of your playing style.
Posted by: Jenbu Jul 24 2009, 10:10 PM
well I use alternate picking but, when im playing fast and I need to jump over a string (for instance from A to G) I find it most comfortable with economy picking. But still that is hard too 
Should I use alternate picking when jumping over strings?
For instance when im playing the intro to sweet child o mine I find it hard to play it with alternate picking. Well I learned the intro before I learned alternate picking so that could be a reason.
Posted by: Vasilije Vukmirovic Jul 24 2009, 10:34 PM
yeah, neoclassical metal uses tons of arpeggios so in that sense it's economy.
Posted by: Sami Jul 24 2009, 11:02 PM
I'm sorry to be totally off topic, but i read this whole topic and i would just like to say Emirs posts are hilarious haha
you really made my day mate
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 25 2009, 02:49 AM
QUOTE (Jenbu @ Jul 24 2009, 11:10 PM)
well I use alternate picking but, when im playing fast and I need to jump over a string (for instance from A to G) I find it most comfortable with economy picking. But still that is hard too Should I use alternate picking when jumping over strings?
For instance when im playing the intro to sweet child o mine I find it hard to play it with alternate picking. Well I learned the intro before I learned alternate picking so that could be a reason.
Should I use alternate picking when jumping over strings?For instance when im playing the intro to sweet child o mine I find it hard to play it with alternate picking. Well I learned the intro before I learned alternate picking so that could be a reason.
Thing is, you should be able to use both alternate and economy.
Posted by: lcsdds Jul 25 2009, 05:00 AM
QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 25 2009, 02:49 AM)
Thing is, you should be able to use both alternate and economy.
Muris.....what do you use economy for? I just have a hard time seeing anything you would use it for.....especially with your AP chops....don't see a need. The only think I use it for now is legato licks and just straight sweep picking. I know you had an economy lick in your Phrygian advanced lesson but it seemed to me that you did it just because you could....
I know you could play that lick using AP. Just curious what you use it for.
Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 25 2009, 07:35 AM
I use it....when I use it.
Posted by: Oxac Jul 25 2009, 08:34 AM
@ Zeyth. You need to be critical of your sources. You've had several people telling you their opinion and why that lick won't work where 2 of them posts great lessons on this site on this very topic. Still you favour the unknown guy with the internet page. Sure, he played fast in the youtube video but where is his phrasing, tone and timing?
Have you tried played string skipping arpeggios with economy?
E|-13-9-----------------9--13-9--------11-16--------|-18-13----------------13-----------------------|
B|-------------------------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------|
G|-------13-10----10-13----------13-10------17-13-|-------18-13----13-18----13-10----13-----------|
D|-------------11---------------------------------------|--------------15-------------------11-------11-----|
A|-------------------------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------11--------|
E|--------------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------9---|
E|-----6---------|
B|-----4---------|
G|-----5---------|
D|-----3---------|
A|-----4---------|
E|----------------|
Posted by: Emir Hot Jul 25 2009, 10:44 PM
QUOTE (Sami @ Jul 24 2009, 11:02 PM)
I'm sorry to be totally off topic, but i read this whole topic and i would just like to say Emirs posts are hilarious haha
you really made my day mate
you really made my day mate
Hehehe, glad I made your day but don't really know what was that much hilarious
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 26 2009, 12:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7-zD2IQYTw - A very nice video by Rick Graham about economy.
Here's a question for all you definers of economy picking:
Would you say there's a difference between playing with economy picking and playing with economy of motion.
The pre-mentioned 3 note per string lick by Emir could possible me played with less motion than used in alternate picking it (I must admit I haven't really checked it out, but I'll do so in a minute). I'm sure it would be awkward as hell though.
CODE
Alternate picking:
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
d u d u d u d u d u d u d u d u d u
w w w w w = 5 wasted units of energy
Economy for 1/4 note's value then alternate
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
d u d d u d u d u d u d u d u d u d
w w w w = 4 wasted units of energy
Economy of motion:
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
d u d d u d d u d d u d d u d d u d
dw dw = 4 wasted units of energy (double wastex2)
Wasted unit = moving across a string without playing it.
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
d u d u d u d u d u d u d u d u d u
w w w w w = 5 wasted units of energy
Economy for 1/4 note's value then alternate
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
d u d d u d u d u d u d u d u d u d
w w w w = 4 wasted units of energy
Economy of motion:
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||
d u d d u d d u d d u d d u d d u d
dw dw = 4 wasted units of energy (double wastex2)
Wasted unit = moving across a string without playing it.
If you have any other ways of picking it (not legatoing or hammering on), feel free to add further to the above.
Now I am not saying the two lower ones are the better ones, because I think for many they will feel more awkward, so just consider it a general analysis of wasted motion and do with it what you want
Posted by: Emir Hot Jul 26 2009, 12:07 PM
QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Jul 26 2009, 12:04 PM)
If you have any other ways of picking it (not legatoing or hammering on), feel free to add further to the above.
Now I am not saying the two lower ones are the better ones, because I think for many they will feel more awkward, so just consider it a general analysis of wasted motion and do with it what you want
Now I am not saying the two lower ones are the better ones, because I think for many they will feel more awkward, so just consider it a general analysis of wasted motion and do with it what you want
Now try that in 16th triplets and 160bpm. No way economy picking would work there
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 26 2009, 12:12 PM
QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 26 2009, 01:07 PM)
Now try that in 16th triplets and 160bpm. No way economy picking would work there
Haha, no one in their sane mind would do that, but it does have less motion, so anyone with enough time on their hands and willingness to incorporate strange picking patterns in their playing, could probably get it right at some point. I for one can't, as I too would use alternate picking for this. It was just the more...scientific approach to this topic.
That, of course, only in consideration to wanting the fastest speed, not ones taste of sound.
Posted by: Oxac Jul 26 2009, 01:04 PM
I think the guy missed that 2 downstrokes in a row require a motion twice the speed of 1 down 1 up.
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