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Posted by: Boson Mar 17 2011, 12:17 AM

Not sure if its because of guitar or something else but my little finger on my left (fretting) hand has gone completely numb. This make playing guitar impossible as I had worked hard to strengthen that finger.

Has this happened to anyone else and if so what did you do about it?

Posted by: Sollesnes Mar 17 2011, 12:44 AM

How did it happen? If you carry bags it can happen by squeezing a nerve in the finger. Had a numb index finger for days because of that.
If it happent seemingly without reason, it can be a reason for concern. Could be carpal tunnel syndrome.

Take it easy, and see if it goes over within the next day or so. Numbness doesnt usually indicate anything dangerous. If you have no idea how it happened, you should take it easy, not sleep on your hand, and see if it improves. If it doesnt, ask a docter

Posted by: SirJamsalot Mar 17 2011, 12:50 AM

one finger or many fingers? do your other fingers tingle? It's possibly a pinched nerve in your back / neck. It can also be the onset of carpal tunnel syndrome as the nerve endings are becoming "entrapped". See a chiropractor if you can - make sure your posture is straight and upright.

best to you
Chris

Posted by: dark dude Mar 17 2011, 01:39 AM

Yes, some more information would be good.

Perhaps you slept on it?

Seeing a doctor wouldn''t hurt.

Posted by: Fran Mar 17 2011, 09:09 AM

That has never happened to me. Nothing serious probably, might dissapear in a couple dayts, but I'd see a doctor just in case. Better safe than sorry!

Posted by: Boson Mar 17 2011, 11:51 PM

Think I might have to see a doc.

Had it for three weeks now

Palm of my hand feels swollen , little finger and 3 finger are numb and tingly to touch

No idea how or why it has happened but cannot feel the strings so cant play!

Posted by: dark dude Mar 18 2011, 12:54 AM

3 weeks?! Definately go see a doctor!!

Posted by: Ben Higgins Mar 18 2011, 11:17 AM

3 weeks is not good... I don't want to seem over dramatic but you definitely want to avoid stuff like carpal tunnel or this: http://www.musicianshealth.com/CubitalTunnel.htm

From the side of your hand that you're describing the numb sensation, it sounds more like Cubital Tunnel Syndrome. These things can develop either from repetitive activity or even because of another injury ie. damaging your elbow can lead to another complaint.

I really would go and see a doctor.. generally in my experience, normal doctors don't know enough about these conditions and they certainly don't understand the mechanics and demands of playing guitar. They might seem a little 'uni-interested' about your guitar needs.. either way, if they don't take it seriously enough and you feel unsatisfied, demand to get referred to a specialist. The doctor shouldn't complain.. it's their job to get you back to health.

Posted by: Fran Mar 18 2011, 12:45 PM

Ouch 3 weeks? Go to the doctor mate!

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Mar 18 2011, 01:52 PM

would advise that you make an appointment with the surgeon doctor, just to check you. Surgeon is a doctor with proper knowledge of your body and can give you better defined diagnose. Remember, this is only an exam. Surgeon exam is about twice the cost of a general practice doc, but that shouldn't be too much. If you have health insurance it's free.

However, state hospitals may put you on hold regarding this matter, and make an appointment in several days, depending when the surgeon is available. In this case, I recommend two things:

- Go to some private clinic for an exam (they are not that expensive and the doctor is available instantly for you)
- Go to state hospital, but emergency room, and state that you fingers are numb and you require immediate help.

These are two ways that you can get your diagnose fast, and I STRONGLY recommend that you use any of them as soon as you read this. Now.

Posted by: Giacinto Mar 18 2011, 04:04 PM

this!

Posted by: fkalich Mar 18 2011, 07:03 PM

not according to Mayo clinic

"Tingling or numbness in your fingers or hand, especially your thumb and index, middle or ring fingers, but not your little finger. This sensation often occurs while holding a steering wheel, phone or newspaper or upon awakening. Many people "shake out" their hands to try to relieve their symptoms. As the disorder progresses, the numb feeling may become constant."

you can see a doctor, but I would expect the probability of a diagnosis to be near zero at this point, especially if you don't see a specialist. They will just tell you to cool it on the guitar for awhile. Don't panic, people around here tend to overreact, it is just a numb pinkie finger, probably will be fine if you just give it time, and give it some rest.

Posted by: SirJamsalot Mar 18 2011, 08:05 PM

Not according to Boson!



while I understand the desire to not overreact, I don't think seeing a doctor / specialist for this description is overreacting.

cheers

Posted by: dark dude Mar 18 2011, 08:26 PM

Firstly, we are not doctors.

Self-diagnosis of conditions like this is not advisable. His hand/portions of his hand has/have been numb for 3 weeks now, this is not normal. He should see somebody medically qualified.

There are quite a few people on this board who have suffered guitar-related injuries, I can imagine that they simply feel concerned, and are giving whatever advice they can. Hypothetically speaking (i.e. don't panic, but), if something more serious is wrong with Boson's hand, we shouldn't put it down to self-diagnosis by medically uneducated people.

Yes, there is a chance that it's over-worked, but it's better to be safe than sorry.


PS I realise my tone, however it isn't directed at anybody in particular, so don't take it personally. I just don't want to see something like this get swept under the carpet, so to speak.

Posted by: fkalich Mar 18 2011, 08:55 PM

I don't think he has rested it. They won't spend time or money doing anything till he has. it is probably nothing serious. Especially when in all probability, you just stressed or inflamed something pushing strength building on the pinkie.

I ruled out carpal tunnel, that would be the biggie, but it is not associated with the pinkie.

I have great health insurance. I would rest it totally if it were me. I would just tell myself that it is not something that a week or two is going to matter on, it is not like this could be malignant cancer. And then if it went away (as it probably will), I would not push so hard with trying to strengthening the pinkie. You have little injuries and aches all your life, most are minor. I think that if you overreact to every one of them, this makes you a frightened person. And how are you going to take it when something really bad happens?

If he has totally rested it for a week or two, I say go to the doctor. But it won't hurt to rest it first if he has not, and then if it does not go away the doctor will know more and know better how to proceed. And it won't hurt a thing if he just rests it for awhile, quits the guitar for a week or two totally. It is not like the doctor will say (if it persists after that) "you should have come to me a week ago, now I need to take your arm off!".

Posted by: dark dude Mar 18 2011, 10:15 PM

I understand where you're coming from, the worry that we'll turn into hyperchondriacs, but at the end of the day, we're working off second-hand information, and we're not medically qualified. We can take an informed guess, and that's about it.

I took a knock over a year ago while playing football at uni. Thinking that it was nothing, I didn't do anything about it, and rested it. It kept nagging, and I saw the campus doctor a week after the incident, asked me to rest it a bit more. More than a year on, and I'm still giving it ample rest, taking high strength supplements 3 times a day for it, wearing a knee brace for football, and it isn't much better. This is after people told me to ignore it. Now I'm considering seeing a specialist.

So, yes, I didn't need the leg amputated, and it wasn't quite cancer, but it's bothering me now.

Go see a doctor, if you're still having problems, see a specialist.

Posted by: Ben Higgins Mar 19 2011, 10:44 AM

As Cosmin says 'Take care of your hands as if your life depended on them' ... we only get 1 set after all. Of course we don't believe in turning into hypochondriacs.. but I don't see that even being the case. This is a guitar forum, Boson is a guitar player and this concerns hands.. seems pretty understandable to me to worry about my hands if I'm a guitar player.. doesn't mean I'm going to start hiding in corners of my house thinking I've developed agorophobia.

Something like cubital tunnel syndrome, which could be developed by merely sleeping with your arm bent up by your head.. or even by resting your elbow on your door whilst driving (truckers are prone to it for that very reason) could eventually lead to loss of motor functions of the hand if ignored completely.. so no one's saying we need to catch on fire with panic.. but it's also no laughing matter either. If there's one thing I think we're all allowed to be over cautious about, it's surely our health ?

Btw, not sure if anyone read the info on that link but the reason I brought up cubital (not carpal) tunnel in the first place is because it affects the little and ring finger side of the hand.. tingling, numbness etc. It doesn't mean Boson has necessarily brought it on because of bad habits, as it's quite a common thing to occur.. but it is worth avoiding. Rest and stretching will eventually improve and get rid of the condition.. but its still worth ruling anything else out in the process. If anything goes numb for 3 weeks it's not good !

Posted by: Mudbone Mar 20 2011, 05:37 PM

Damn... I just read this the other day, and now it has happened to me But I know exactly what has caused it: Bad posture while at the computer and the fact I haven't been to the gym regularly in three weeks. Its amazing how fast the body weakens from lack of exercise. Time to get off the computer and hit the gym

Posted by: Boson Mar 21 2011, 07:11 PM

Thanks for all the replies guys.

It definitely sounds like Cubital Tunnel Syndrome.

Problem is I hate doctors (even though I have 2 in the family!)

I have tried ice and rest without much effect. Played guitar for an hour last nigh and it definitely got worse!

This is a real worry, going to bite the bullet and see a doc.

Posted by: Ben Higgins Mar 21 2011, 07:35 PM

Balls. That's not good.

But don't worry.. I had this for a little while and I managed to cure mine with rest and ice.. and eventual stretching. At the moment it's too early for you to be playing guitar at that level. You're going to hate me for saying this but you're going to have to rest for much longer without touching the guitar. I went about 2 weeks without playing, then I gradually reintroduced the guitar in about 5 minute increments until I could play for a good amount of time with no symptoms.

The resting is the key... also try to avoid keeping the elbow bent for long periods of time. Make sure it's led straight when you go to sleep too.. it will get better.. you've just got to allow the inflamed muscles to ease off and release the nerve. Stretching the inside forearm muscles is the important stretch to do.

But it's still important to see the doc to rule anything else out.

Posted by: Fran Mar 22 2011, 11:17 AM

Good call man. Let us know how it went.

Posted by: Boson Mar 22 2011, 10:28 PM

Yup it is cubital tunnel syndrome.

This means no guitar for a while rest, anti inflamitries and need to try to keep my arm straight.


Basically it is a trapped or damaged nerve in the elbow that causes it.

Take care guys, from what I understand playing guitar in itself is not a cause but for those of you that use the computer a lot you need to think about your posture. I tend to lean with my left arm against the desk and I think this may have been a big factor.

Hopefully it willl clear up but if it doesnt it means an op.

Posted by: Jerry Arcidiacono Mar 22 2011, 10:45 PM

Wish you a quick recovery Boson!
I've found this website some time ago about the right posture to work many hours with a PC.
http://www.hp.com/ergo/

Posted by: SirJamsalot Mar 22 2011, 11:29 PM

Wishing you a quick and thorough recovery!

Now, music is not limited to guitar! Take this time away from the instrument to do something else in music! Do you record? Practice putting together backing tracks with drums and keyboards using VST's in your DAW! Listen to a song and try to transcribe it using musical notation (not tab!) - Learning to read AND write music is a beautiful thing and will serve you in the future!

Doing is always better than just reading about it, so find a way to work on music that doesn't involve your instrument! Keep moving forward in your learning.

Cheers,
Christian A.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Mar 23 2011, 12:11 AM

Very sorry to hear this I went through this as well. This is why I am such a stickler about "Do your stretches!". Do everything your doctors says and hopefully you can get back to playing soon.

Posted by: fkalich Mar 23 2011, 03:03 AM

That nerve goes under your elbow, on the inside.

http://www.assh.org/Public/HandConditions/Pages/CubitalTunnelSyndrome.aspx

If you feel there while constricting fingers on that extended arm, you find see that working the pinkie really constricts the muscle over that nerve, much more so than with the big fingers.

You said that you were really working on strengthening your pinkie. My educated guess would be that is how you irritated that nerve. I bet you will feel better with rest, and if it were me, and I was prone to this problem, I would play more with three fingers in the future, just use my pinkie when I needed it.

edit: I don't know where you got the impression that guitar is not the cause of this. We have a few guitarists even on this thread who have had this problem. Guitar may not be the cause of it for some guys, but most guys don't use the pinkie as much, and with as much force, as do people here on GMC. Anyone who tells you that guitar will not cause this, probably does not even conceive of people playing 4 fingered as we try to here.

Posted by: Ben Higgins Mar 23 2011, 10:20 AM

Don't worry, there's no reason at all why it won't clear up with the measures that you take Ops are always last resort and it's usually because the person in question just hasn't taken the time to let it heal, or even bothered to implement good habits.

Im sure you've been given some tips on what/what not to do.. I'll just share with you what I did in case there's something else that might help. I totally left guitar alone for 2 weeks... this will vary for everyone, depending on how long symptoms have been present for.. yours has been quite heavy going by the sound of it, if your fingers had been numb for 3 weeks.. so you may need to lay off even longer (but as SirJamsalot says - make good use of your time off by doing something different relating to music )

Whilst I was laying off, I discovered that wearing wristbands (the normal soft ones that metal/emo bands wear) high on my forearm, about 2 inches below the elbow provided similar relief to the area that proper sports wraps so. By putting pressure on the forearm muscle below the elbow, it then releases some of the pressure on the elbow region.. much like fretting a guitar string. I did this every time I had to do something physical that demanded the use of my arms.. washing up, using the computer. If I couldn't get away from doing certain tasks then this made it easier and put less wear and tear on the arm whilst it was trying to heal. But along with that, I still tried to reduce everything I could.. tried to use my other hand for things like picking up cups etc. I also used ice on my arm after doing anything 'physical'.

I'm sure the doc said about making sure your arm is straight when going to sleep. That's an important one and very effective.. you'll notice the difference with just changing that action alone (if you did it anyway)

After 2 weeks, I started playing guitar just 5 mins every day for 1 week, then allowed my self to up the guitar time each day the second week for as long as it felt comfortable.. but never more than 15 mins. If anything, rather than frustrate me, it actually helped me clean up a few things in my technique by focusing on total relaxation. This is also encouraged me to practice stood up, letting the shoulders and arms lie in their natural postion.

Things that made the symptoms worse for me were: using the comp, reading books (holding the pages open really made it hurt) and doing anything that required me to put pressure through a bent elbow (for example, hands behind head if doing sit ups- not that I did, but you get the idea) So try and avoid those if you can.. if you can't.. then that's when the wrist band trick comes in useful

I have to respectfully disagree with fkalich on his last point though.. in most cases guitar playing itself is not the cause of these problems. However they do continue to aggravate the symptoms and prevent it from getting better. Guitar playing demands the use of the very things that you're trying to rest so that's why laying off that activity is crucial to recovery.. but generally speaking it's something else that starts the problem, the bent arm while sleeping as we've already mentioned, resting elbows on surfaces for long periods of time ie, whilst driving (which is why truckers get it as I said before).. guitar playing just doesn't help, that's all. PS. I had this problem in my picking arm, not my fretting hand.

Posted by: Boson Mar 23 2011, 07:46 PM

Cheers guys I really appreciate all the care and thought that you are all showing.

Sirjamsalot, excellent advice thank you, I am going to follow it I have never got into VSTs etc but now I can devote a bit of time to that.

Thanks also Ben great advice and support also.

I am determined to crack it and trying very hard to follow the medical advice so hopefully wont be too long before I will be playing again. Its hard not to when the strat in the corner is saying "play me"!!

Thanks to you all, GMC is a great place!

Posted by: Michael AC Mar 24 2011, 12:46 AM

Thanks for this article! I will start breaking my practice times up a little.

Posted by: Charisma Apr 1 2011, 11:33 PM

I have the same thing. I could almost guarantee you it's the ulnar nerve in your elbow. Do you lean on it a lot when you're sitting? Like putting it on your desk and laying your head on your hand? That's how I got mine. Been about 6 weeks now and no better. I'm supposed to have a nerve conduction test to see where the source of the problem is, but if you look it up I think you'll see that the ulnar nerve causes loss of feeling in those two particular fingers. There's a possibility it could be your back, but 90% it's the ulnar.

Do what you can to get it fixed. It's not going to get better on its own. I'm really worried about mine. I'm still forcing myself to play guitar, to keep it moving and try to overcome it if it turns out to be permanent.

Also, keep your arm as straight as possible. Try not to sleep with your elbow bent. (I know, that's hard and it sucks)

Good luck

Posted by: fkalich Apr 2 2011, 12:26 AM

I don't know why you assume that you got the ailment from using a computer. I mean you play the guitar, I assume in an intensive manner. You are in a pretty limited category. Do you really think that there is a lot of information or any research on this as a cause of the ailment? Computer is a well known cause. If you go to a doctor, well they are not paid to know the cause. They are paid to diagnose and treat the ailment. In any profession, people tend to have the most expertise in the areas they are paid to deal with, not in the areas that make them no money. They will in all probability be aware of the "well known causes", but that may be as far as it goes. With computer use universal, there is a lot of information on that as a cause of these ailments. Don't expect your doctor to know the cause of an ailment when that cause is more obscure. Just expect them to diagnosis and treat. Regarding causes and life style changes to avoid such issues, you really have to do some of your own research, and think for yourself to an extent.

I think both of you hurt yourself playing guitar, and you had best just stop doing anything that hurts. You don't have to do everything some others do on this site, you don't have to play as fast, you don't have to do it all. Some of my favorite musicians don't do half of the things people try to do around here. If it hurts, stop it. You may have a genetic issue. Just do what does not hurt, at least until you get better. If you get better, you can try to do more.

Posted by: Charisma Apr 2 2011, 12:51 AM

Thanks for replying. I know I didn't hurt it playing the guitar because I haven't been playing much the past year. Well, I haven't played at all really. I've actually started playing again because of my arm, to try to keep it in shape. Nothing hurts at all, those two fingers are just numb. I can't feel them at all. I think it was the computer because I'm on the computer a lot, and I do lean on my elbows a lot, and I do sleep with my arm crooked under my chin, which doesn't help either. Also, now that I'm favoring the hurt arm, the other arm has shown signs of doing the same thing, so now I have to be doubly careful.




Did they tell you anything about the operation? How complicated it is? What the recovery time is? Chances of a full recovery?


Figures, I just join the web site today and the first forum post I read tells me not to play the guitar, heh.