Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ alternate picker ? am i ?

Posted by: Egln40 Dec 5 2006, 10:08 PM

Hi.

Just started with electric and Masterclass.
I am a bit confused about alternate picking. I understand the up down - up down pattern, but..........
How do you manage that when on a down stroke, you go down a string (D to G for example). Do you have to hit the G on a up stroke, or on the way down ?
Thanks for giving me some light.
Eric.

Posted by: ezravdb Dec 5 2006, 10:15 PM

alternate picking means: Always UP and DOWN or DOWN and UP...ALWAYS biggrin.gif

alternative picking is something different, thats when you take 2 strings in 1 stroke(up or down) , that way you save time with picking and play faster. (right folks?)

good luck with alternate picking and building up speed!

Posted by: sanders4617 Dec 5 2006, 10:52 PM

For me.. I guess it depends on what I am doing after that. I alternate pick, but its not strictly alternate picking. Sometimes I go the say way (up for instance) a few times in a row. I don't really think about it when I play.. but I did when I first learned to alternate pick. I used the beiginning intro to Fade to Black to help me with that. Ever since then (it took a week to get use to it I guess, dont really remember).. I am always using alternate picking in my playing. If I tried to consistently use down strokes, I couldn't do it.

Depending on the south I am looking for.. I sometimes use my other fingers to pick some of the strings. Or I will even put the pick between my index and middle finger and just use all my fingers without a pick. With you playing the faster music (I tend to lean toward blues and classic rock).. it would be a requirement (atleast I would think so) to use a pick.

Posted by: PickNGrin Dec 7 2006, 04:08 PM

If I was picking down on the D string, and the next note was on the G string, I typically would NOT execute an upstroke on the G string.....that would mean going over the string and reversing direction to come back up and pick it with an upstoke.
If I was going from the D string to the A string...then I would execute an up stroke.
And, I'd still call this "alternate picking". Basically, if you are using both up and down strokes, you are incorporating alternate picking.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 7 2006, 06:32 PM

QUOTE (PickNGrin @ Dec 7 2006, 06:08 PM) *
If I was picking down on the D string, and the next note was on the G string, I typically would NOT execute an upstroke on the G string.....that would mean going over the string and reversing direction to come back up and pick it with an upstoke.
If I was going from the D string to the A string...then I would execute an up stroke.
And, I'd still call this "alternate picking". Basically, if you are using both up and down strokes, you are incorporating alternate picking.


This kind of thinking works nicely if you aren't after the demonic speeds (and there certainly is no need for that!). blink.gif

However, if you want achieve crazy alternate picking a la Paul Gilbert/Yngwie Malmsteen - then I can stronlgy recommend reversing direction in order to play 100,00 % strict alternate picking even if it feels uncofortbale at first.

The reason I can say this with certainty is because I have been on the "wrong road" in alternate picking land for a long time - it took me a lot of time to repair this. In fact, it has only very recently started to pay off.

I also know Tank has a similar experience.

Posted by: Egln40 Dec 7 2006, 07:43 PM

Yes, I realised how uncomfortable reversing is, but looks like it's the master's way of picking. I'll practice that way.

Thank you all for your response and advice. cool.gif

Eric

Posted by: DanielM Dec 7 2006, 09:47 PM

i agree the only way to master alternate picking is to do purely up and down strokes, but isn't it potentially faster to 'alternative pick' all the time? aka sweeping/raking.

so when you are doing 3 notes on one string then 2 on the next isnt it faster to downstroke across both strings when playing the 3rd note of the top and the 1st of the bottom?

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 7 2006, 10:16 PM

QUOTE (DanielM @ Dec 7 2006, 11:47 PM) *
so when you are doing 3 notes on one string then 2 on the next isnt it faster to downstroke across both strings when playing the 3rd note of the top and the 1st of the bottom?


Yes it is faster but it sounds like sh#t biggrin.gif Really, + you can't get that agressive picking feel going if all of sudden you have to interrupt with two downstrokes in a row.

Posted by: DanielM Dec 7 2006, 10:50 PM

ok so basically restrict that technique to sweeping?

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 7 2006, 10:53 PM

QUOTE (DanielM @ Dec 8 2006, 12:50 AM) *
ok so basically restrict that technique to sweeping?


Absolutely - good thinking. smile.gif

Posted by: Guitar1969 Dec 8 2006, 01:05 AM

QUOTE (PickNGrin @ Dec 7 2006, 07:08 AM) *
If I was picking down on the D string, and the next note was on the G string, I typically would NOT execute an upstroke on the G string.....that would mean going over the string and reversing direction to come back up and pick it with an upstoke.
If I was going from the D string to the A string...then I would execute an up stroke.
And, I'd still call this "alternate picking". Basically, if you are using both up and down strokes, you are incorporating alternate picking.


There is a whole school of thought that this way you described above is faster than strictly aternate picking because of the exact reason you mention - It is called Economy picking and it seems logical . This may cause some more debate, but check out this lesson which discusses all of this in detail:

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/guitar_techniques/economy_picking.html

Don't shoot the messenger - I just find it interesting. Any thoughts?

Posted by: Norven Dec 8 2006, 11:24 PM

I use alternativ picking. But sometimes when i do fast runs over all the strings I use economic picking.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 8 2006, 11:38 PM

QUOTE (Guitar1969 @ Dec 8 2006, 03:05 AM) *
There is a whole school of thought that this way you described above is faster than strictly aternate picking because of the exact reason you mention - It is called Economy picking and it seems logical . This may cause some more debate, but check out this lesson which discusses all of this in detail:

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/guitar_techniques/economy_picking.html

Don't shoot the messenger - I just find it interesting. Any thoughts?


I believe at the end you might be a little faster with economy picking. However, I personally think the disadvantages are way to many.

As I was saying I have been doing economy picking for a long time - so that's why I can tell...

I uploaded a solo I did a long time ago with economy picking.

 solo3mas.mp3 ( 1.78MB ) : 1109
 

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 9 2006, 12:34 PM

...so I think it sounds ok and it's pretty fast. However, when comparing to my strictly alternate picking I have got today - the advantages are: More attack, control, and imo better "speedpicking tone" - if there is such a thing.

Basically alternate picking has opened up to things I could not do at the time I recorded the audio clip.

To be honest I'd rather have a maximum speed of 190 bpm (or whatever) with great tone than 230 with bad tone and poor control. No one will here a great difference between those speeds. However, the difference in tone will perfectly audible.

So once again... gor for alternate picking!!! biggrin.gif

Kris

Posted by: Josiah Dec 9 2006, 07:10 PM

Economy picking kind of confused me too. I was told it was the way to play fast, so I practiced it with my scales and sequences. After a careful evaluation of the mechanics, I found that there are only rare situations where it would be useful to me. So I went back to alternate picking only to find my picking hand "confused"!

One of the things that I found hard is the timing of hitting two notes in a single down stroke but at othertimes
reversing direction (alternate picking). You actually have to slow down when you economy pick across two stings so the time between notes is equal to the time of reversing direction during the alternate picking of other notes!

Your wrist has to stop during those two economy picked notes (the movement across the strings comes from the elbow), then the wrist has to start again to alternate pick. So the rhythm of your picking hand's wrist becomes a stutter. If you slowly economy pick a passage and watch your picking hand, you will see what I mean. While alternate picking, the wrist maintains a steady rhythm while the elbow simutaniously moves the wrist across the strings.

In other words, when you alternate pick down on one string and move the pick past the string below it, then reverse the direction, there is only an illusion that the wrist moves further down then it does going up because the movement you see of going between strings is a compound movement of the wrist and the elbow at the same time. In actuallity, the wrist itself moves the same distance up and down as if it where picking one string tremolo.

If a passage can be played one note per string, then you can play it faster by sweeping it (economy picking),
but if you must alternate pick some notes, the sweep picking advantage is eliminated because all notes must be played at the same tempo.

Personally, I remain unconvinced economy picking provides a real speed increase and it is definately harder to learn and perform instinctively. I believe most top shredders use alternate picking only. For example, ultra-fast shredders Michael Angelo and Chris Impellitteri are proponents of strict alternate picking (except during arpeggio sweeping).

By the way, I quit practicing sweep picking arpeggios in favor of alternate picking them! I have found it easier to incorporate small parts of arpeggio patterns into my alternate picked melodies if they are alternate picked like the rest of my patterns. An added bonus is that practicing this way has really helped my right hand technique and overall playing speed!

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 10 2006, 10:28 PM

QUOTE (Josiah @ Dec 9 2006, 09:10 PM) *
Economy picking kind of confused me too. I was told it was the way to play fast, so I practiced it with my scales and sequences. After a careful evaluation of the mechanics, I found that there are only rare situations where it would be useful to me. So I went back to alternate picking only to find my picking hand "confused"!

One of the things that I found hard is the timing of hitting two notes in a single down stroke but at othertimes
reversing direction (alternate picking). You actually have to slow down when you economy pick across two stings so the time between notes is equal to the time of reversing direction during the alternate picking of other notes!

Your wrist has to stop during those two economy picked notes (the movement across the strings comes from the elbow), then the wrist has to start again to alternate pick. So the rhythm of your picking hand's wrist becomes a stutter. If you slowly economy pick a passage and watch your picking hand, you will see what I mean. While alternate picking, the wrist maintains a steady rhythm while the elbow simutaniously moves the wrist across the strings.

In other words, when you alternate pick down on one string and move the pick past the string below it, then reverse the direction, there is only an illusion that the wrist moves further down then it does going up because the movement you see of going between strings is a compound movement of the wrist and the elbow at the same time. In actuallity, the wrist itself moves the same distance up and down as if it where picking one string tremolo.

If a passage can be played one note per string, then you can play it faster by sweeping it (economy picking),
but if you must alternate pick some notes, the sweep picking advantage is eliminated because all notes must be played at the same tempo.

Personally, I remain unconvinced economy picking provides a real speed increase and it is definately harder to learn and perform instinctively. I believe most top shredders use alternate picking only. For example, ultra-fast shredders Michael Angelo and Chris Impellitteri are proponents of strict alternate picking (except during arpeggio sweeping).

By the way, I quit practicing sweep picking arpeggios in favor of alternate picking them! I have found it easier to incorporate small parts of arpeggio patterns into my alternate picked melodies if they are alternate picked like the rest of my patterns. An added bonus is that practicing this way has really helped my right hand technique and overall playing speed!


Thanks for a great informative post - I agree with you and think you nailed the dilemma.

I also practice alternate picked arpeggios - slightly inspired my Steve Morse. It maskes you uise them in a different way when improvising!

Posted by: PickNGrin Dec 12 2006, 05:13 PM

WOW! great thread! Some good points here, very informative. A couple points that I had not thought about!
Thanks for posting!

PS -Really great recording Kris!

Posted by: Tom Dec 13 2006, 01:16 PM

Kris

if you were, for example, to play a full scale in a solo using 3 notes per string, would u stick only to up-down-up-down picking? I have tried economy picking and found it frustrating, but when i am playing a scale with 3 notes per string i have found it easier to play , for example, E string, down-up-down then a string down-up down etc then the reverse of this when coming back. is this how the rest of you guys would play the scale??

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 13 2006, 01:59 PM

QUOTE
if you were, for example, to play a full scale in a solo using 3 notes per string, would u stick only to up-down-up-down picking?


The answer is yes,yes,yes, - always always always when speedpicking. smile.gif

That's the conclusion I have come to...

Kris

Posted by: RIP Dime Dec 14 2006, 08:08 AM

Hey guys, I don't mean to thread jack, but could this be the reason why I my right hand gets "confused" while playing descending patterns. I start with a down stroke, so it goes down up down, then I move down(tword the low E) while on an upstroke, so it throws off my rhythm? Could that be it?

So the solution would be to start on a up stroke?

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 14 2006, 08:35 AM

QUOTE (RIP Dime @ Dec 14 2006, 10:08 AM) *
Hey guys, I don't mean to thread jack, but could this be the reason why I my right hand gets "confused" while playing descending patterns. I start with a down stroke, so it goes down up down, then I move down(tword the low E) while on an upstroke, so it throws off my rhythm? Could that be it?

So the solution would be to start on a up stroke?


If I understand you correctly - you are staying 100% alternate which is good. The situation you describe is usually where people cheat (which the later on regret!).

Posted by: RIP Dime Dec 14 2006, 08:56 AM

Yes, I'm trying to get my alternate picking going, but I have the unforunate habit of economy picking everything mad.gif Any tips on how to get into the good habit biggrin.gif of alternate picking faster. I've been saying out loud down, up, down, up etc... everytime I change strings for three note per string runs.
so I do this....

e---------------------------------------------------------------12-14-15--------------------------
B---------------------------------------------------12-13-15--------------------------------------
G---------------------------------------12-14-16--------------------------------------------------
D---------------------------12-14-16--------------------------------------------------------------
A----------------12-14-15-------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-----12-14-15-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say Down......up..........down........up.............down........up
And reverse for descending patterns.
Is this a good way of getting into the habit of alt picking?

Edit
blink.gif I just realised how much of an economy picker I am sad.gif When I do three notes per string runs I go down up down (change strings) down up down all the way up!!!! AHHH!!!! It didn't have anything to do with what pick stroke I started with, it was my economy picking that made me suck at descending runs!!! I'm gonna freak out wacko.gif Cuz I guess it's something I've done forever, and now I can't play anything without thinking "I'm economy picking this when I should be alt picking it!" and getting EXTREMELY discouraged by it!
Now all my practice sessions will be dedicated solely on getting rid of my economy picking habit!!
I would love anybody that can give me some tips...

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 14 2006, 11:43 AM

QUOTE (RIP Dime @ Dec 14 2006, 10:56 AM) *
Yes, I'm trying to get my alternate picking going, but I have the unforunate habit of economy picking everything mad.gif Any tips on how to get into the good habit biggrin.gif of alternate picking faster. I've been saying out loud down, up, down, up etc... everytime I change strings for three note per string runs.
so I do this....

e---------------------------------------------------------------12-14-15--------------------------
B---------------------------------------------------12-13-15--------------------------------------
G---------------------------------------12-14-16--------------------------------------------------
D---------------------------12-14-16--------------------------------------------------------------
A----------------12-14-15-------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-----12-14-15-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say Down......up..........down........up.............down........up
And reverse for descending patterns.
Is this a good way of getting into the habit of alt picking?

Edit
blink.gif I just realised how much of an economy picker I am sad.gif When I do three notes per string runs I go down up down (change strings) down up down all the way up!!!! AHHH!!!! It didn't have anything to do with what pick stroke I started with, it was my economy picking that made me suck at descending runs!!! I'm gonna freak out wacko.gif Cuz I guess it's something I've done forever, and now I can't play anything without thinking "I'm economy picking this when I should be alt picking it!" and getting EXTREMELY discouraged by it!
Now all my practice sessions will be dedicated solely on getting rid of my economy picking habit!!
I would love anybody that can give me some tips...


Well you can be happy it didn't take you several years to realise - and don't worry you have still learned alot with the economy picking. smile.gif

Speaking out loud and slowing down seems like a good approach!

Posted by: RIP Dime Dec 14 2006, 11:59 AM

That's true, I did learn alot, hopefully after I've gotten into the habit of alt picking I can play what I've learned 10 times better! biggrin.gif
Thanks Kris!

Posted by: Codyrg Dec 18 2006, 07:41 PM

Honestly, I think economy picking sounds smoother than strict alt. I used to alt. picking was the only way and then my gutiar teacher exposed me to eco. picking. I think eco. picking is better than alt. just because I feel that it flows better in the song. I have good attack as it is, so I don't think it sounds weaker than alt. picking and honestly I think both sound great with practice. Listen to Symphony X, I'm almost positive Michael Romeo uses strict eco. picking.

Posted by: Armageddon Dec 26 2006, 10:05 PM

Great topic. I never thought about that two techniques. So I woundered : what do I do?
I could not figure without trying so I grabed my axe and made the test : I do alt picking.
It's what came naturaly when I started to play guitar.

The problem I have right now is to keep a good synchronisation between left and right hand. Sometimes when I want to go fast, my right hand (i'm right handed) goes faster than my left hand. dry.gif So the effect is double notes and poor rythm.
I must improve my left hand speed and play the same speed with the riight hand.

Posted by: Gustavo May 8 2007, 03:14 AM

i have been using eco picking from i started (7 month using eco picking), and now i can't use alternate its so difficult XD

and its true what kris say, its not the same attack, for me the sound is different using alt picking

Posted by: mattacuk May 8 2007, 08:23 PM

You know what guys, ive been Alternate picking from the start (as im a relatively new player ) and I cannot even remember how to economy pick. I took Kris's advice back in december 06 when i joined, practiced alternate picking every day for months and my brain cannot remember anything esle. I just go up/down/up down no matter what !! biggrin.gif It would seem alien not to alternate pick even when improvising.

I belive if you practice songs with pure altenate picking, like Gabi and Pavels it will become second nature whatever you do.

Here is some insentive to alternate pick.............. wink.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPGA3vjMLgE

I am currently learning Bach's Prelude and Fugue in D Major ala Paul Gilbert and its developing my alternate picking skills no end!

Posted by: JCJXXL May 9 2007, 03:45 AM

I totally agree. Alternate picking is the way to go.
It does become second nature. For me it felt more natural than economy picking and I have better control and timing when alternate picking. I tried economy picking the other day just for fun and to me it sounds choppy and sloppy.

One last thing, my new guitar instructor gave me some exercises, scales,etc to practice on and he said "Don't worry about how you're picking. Just downstrokes for now."

I told him I only alternate pick because Sensei Dahl does not allow any other form wink.gif

Posted by: Leviathan May 9 2007, 04:43 AM

QUOTE (Egln40 @ Dec 5 2006, 04:08 PM) *
Hi.

Just started with electric and Masterclass.
I am a bit confused about alternate picking. I understand the up down - up down pattern, but..........
How do you manage that when on a down stroke, you go down a string (D to G for example). Do you have to hit the G on a up stroke, or on the way down ?
Thanks for giving me some light.
Eric.



This is an easy way to put it i'm not meaning to be vulgar... but


it's just like whackin off you keep going up and down... from the words of Daron Malakian ( guitarist and vocalist for system of a down))

Posted by: JOhn May 30 2007, 11:25 AM

how is it different? i practiced economy picking because i thought it was better and made perfect sense by picking down on every third note. But if it really does ruin your tone is it really worth unlearning?

Posted by: Bulletproof Jan 7 2008, 10:01 PM

I honestly have found that alternate picking is GOLD!! I'll be honest though it DOES seem like you should be picking down when your moving down and vise versa when going up...but DON"T!!!!! for one...you will only get a few beats per second faster if your shredding at the most insane speeds....but you'll hear the tone loss. And also...it's much smoother on your right hand technique to use alternate since it's a controlled up and down movement when switching beween strings. As for relearning your picking style...do it if your economy picking...it's worth the time..you'll be surprised at how fast you'll pick it up.

* Proof

Posted by: Sabbz Jan 7 2008, 10:04 PM

I guess I'm lucky. When I started playing, when I was 15 or so, I didn't know at the time it was a technique or whatever, but alternate picking just seemed the natural way to pick, to me.

Posted by: DeepRoots Jan 7 2008, 10:16 PM

I accidently learned economy picking when trying to learn how to alternate pick- it really messed up my technique for a while...
But now that i alternate pick i think its great for 'speedpicking' and some riffing maybe, ofcourse string skipping licks too.

However limiting yourself to just one technique is exactly that IMO = limiting

You can get some mega cool trippy spaced out smooth sounding sequences and patterns using economy, its a great way to cross strings with a legato sound.

Why not mix up a solo with a flowing legato sequence with economy picking and tapping and then burst out, stomp the overdrive and alternate pick someones face off for the aggressive sound!

To be virtuosos we must learn everything.....

I'd love to master economy picking soon and learn to switch between the styles dependant of the lick/ desired effect.

ofcourse im just another point of view among many smile.gif


edit: wow old thread!! wink.gif

Posted by: Muris Jan 8 2008, 02:38 AM

It's good to have both in the pocket,might come in handy imho. smile.gif

But the truth is,alternate picking offers more power,accuracy
and it's easier to follow different timings and notes values.
While on the other hand economy is more smoother and gives chance
to play some licks a lot more faster but timing isn't that tight and correct,
it's more like a "flow" of notes,sort of.

You pick what you like,my advice is both,
maybe I'd give small advantage on alternate
cause you can use it bigger percentage of situations. smile.gif

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)