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Posted by: Dinaga Jan 23 2012, 05:52 PM

Hey mates, I talked about my new Symphonic Metal band in an older topic, so I'd like to share with you our first song.

http://soundcloud.com/dino-trnka/dolia-winter-queen-1

Everything was done in Cubase with Guitar Rig.
I won't talk much about it, I'll let the music speak for itself.

So... Please tell me what you think about the song, the overall feel, the instruments, vocals, the production and of course, the guitar solo. Looking forward to your opinion, thanks a lot in advance!


Cheers!

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jan 23 2012, 06:07 PM

hey mate!! Congrats for the firs song!!
The guitar solo is amazing! You did a great job with it!! Regarding the mix, I think that the drums could sound better, a bit fatter and more powerful. I can really note the bass in the mix... maybe you could add a compressor and boost 1.5 khz frequencies. The voice need more presence and a bit less fx for my taste.

Posted by: Dinaga Jan 23 2012, 06:10 PM

Thanks a lot for the feedback my friend.

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jan 23 2012, 06:20 PM

no problem mate! I wish you all the best in this project!

Posted by: Alex Feather Jan 23 2012, 09:15 PM

Congrats! Sounds really good! Great job!

Posted by: Sinisa Cekic Jan 23 2012, 11:02 PM

She is somewhat unsure,my first impression ,is often on the edge. But mix and guitar parts rocking,solo is awesome ,congrats !!!

Posted by: Dinaga Jan 23 2012, 11:19 PM

Thanks a lot for the support friends! I really appreciate it!!!

Here's the YouTube version of the song:



We tried to fix the mixing a bit in this version.
And we'll definitely take every feedback with great seriousness and try to make our next songs better and better.

Posted by: SirJamsalot Jan 23 2012, 11:52 PM

Nice composition!

Good stuff in my opinion ~
I love the rhythm guitars as a whole - you create a great groove once the ball starts rolling. I like the opening, and if you're trying to create an ethereal feel, consider some keyboard chamber voices to back your singer. I love the composition too - you broke out the song into parts very nicely - it has direction which I like!

The *needs work* in my opinion ~
The Mix seems thin to me, and I'll have to agree with Sinisa on the vocals. She's using an operatic falsetto which is fine for the genre but if she's not going to supply the "umph", then you need to beef up the rhythm guitars/bass line to help supplement the power.

She's also singing out of key in target notes from 2:07 - 2:47. If it's by design, I don't like it It's fine for the rest, but key notes need to be spot on to be convincing and convey a solid conviction about what you're singing.

41-43 - your strings are out of tune for this one picked arpeggio, but only there? Were you gripping the fretboard too hard? <-- done that, but I'd re-record that section to keep it in tune.

I love what you're doing here! Thanks so much for sharing! Looking forward to more!

okay - third time thru - that's a good sign
haha - I had to listen to the solo section a few times to zero in on the backing chord progression for it. That's a great chord progression you have going on there. Very creative! I love it!

Posted by: Nihilist1 Jan 23 2012, 11:58 PM

I feel as if all the advice that needed to be given has already been taken care of. Great job, Dinaga! The solo makes me wonder why you are a student on GMC rather than a teacher

Posted by: Dinaga Jan 24 2012, 12:20 AM

Wow, thanks a lot Sir for such a detailed feedback! You guys really give the best feedback, this is exactly what we need right now!

About the vocals - Yes, we will constantly improve that aspect. I think our singer has potential but needs to be guided the right way and we need to improve the vocal performance by paying more attention to the exact vocal notes so they aren't out of key. Also, we did the production ourselves, in Cubase with Guitar Rig as a plugin and we could have put better suiting effects on vocal as well (we used a sort of 'Icy' reverb on vocals in Guitar Rig). And we definitely need a better microphone because vocals are sometimes too silent and other times too loud. All in all - your're totally right, there is room for improvement!

About the arpeggio - well, I was probably gripping the fretboard to hard It was a tricky arpeggio sequence for me because I played Em 5-string arpeggio then a diminished picked one and then another sweeped one, so it was also a bit rushed, for sure I must practice a LOT more to get that run better, and to be able to play it well live as well. Need to improve my sweeps too.




Wow man, thanks a lot for the kind words.
That is one of my big dreams, that's why I'll have to do my best to constantly keep improving my guitar playing and one day, who knows

Posted by: Blister Jan 24 2012, 01:16 AM

That's your FIRST song? Great job! That solo was fantastic! Thanks for sharing!

Posted by: PosterBoy Jan 24 2012, 07:44 AM

How did you get Yngwie to do a guest spot?

Good job, I'd agree about the vocals, the get a little lost in the mix and need a bit more something to strengthen them and their position.

Posted by: tonymiro Jan 24 2012, 11:40 AM

Nice composition and playing/singing but +1 with Gab's comments on the mix - it does need some more attention.

You need to not just consider the vox mic but the preamp that is being use and you should consider using a compressor on it. To some extent though you need a more consistent recording and performance with attention to mic technique. This isn't questionng whether she has a nice voice and can sing but on being able to hold, position and work a mic appropriately. Vox needs de-essing quite a bit as well.

With reverb - you can either use reverb as an obvious effect or as ambience. In the recording, to me, the vox reverb here is used as an effect and IMHO it doesn't work. I'd suggest that you use reverb on this recording more as abience and be more subtle with it.

Bass and low mid range is rather lost in the mix and as both Gab and Chris say the mix sounds thin and it also a little like it was recorded in a long tunnel. Related to this your instrument balance and positions needs some work - drums are too low and lack power, etc.

Posted by: Dinaga Jan 24 2012, 11:52 AM

Thanks again people for the nice comments

You're right. Now that you said it, as I listen to the song again I realize more and more that the vox reverb was waaaay too high, and it distracts from the vocals, and from the whole song. This is the first time I have the job of mixing the song and I have a lot to learn. I didn't use a compressor before (except when it was included in a Guitar Rig preset but then I didn't meddle with it), so I'll have to experiment with it and see how it can be used to give the best results... We also need to experiment with the microphone position (try to find the ideal distance from the microphone and the singer).

I don't know if you listened to the SoundCloud or the YouTube version. The YouTube version is the latest one. We also realized that vocals (and drums) in the SoundCloud version needed decreasing so we did that in the video version. I don't know if it's enough though?

And you're on the spot with the "tunnel" comment - yeah, I noticed that too, and it's mainly because of the excessive reverb on the vocals. We'll need to be more careful about that one, because it's really evident, especially in the song ending...

I have a question for the others who record songs with vocals: What are the things you usually add to vocals? I know it depends from song to song but are there some ideas which work most of the time? I'd like to have a solid foundation from where I can start, and then I can add more variables etc.

Thanks a lot mates.

Posted by: JaxN4 Jan 24 2012, 11:59 AM

You should be proud of the work you did here Dino.... Guitar sounds badd ass, nice tone and of course Great chops mate.

Posted by: Dinaga Jan 24 2012, 12:08 PM

Thanks a lot man

Posted by: ItSME3 Jan 24 2012, 01:09 PM

good primer for vocal mixing http://pianologist.com/music-production-arrangement/mixing-vocal-track-step-by-step-guide/

http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/live/96-vocal-tips-437031

http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/tech/recording-vocals-34005

the song is great btw and your playing is very good. congrats

Posted by: tonymiro Jan 24 2012, 01:31 PM

Recording vocals :

I add very little at recording. Use a good mic preamp and mic - ideally the best that you can, my own preference tends to be a Neve preamp with a Neumann. Use a pop shield and if necessary a screen. With vocalists it matters whether the mic is in line or above or below the line of the mouth, so experiment with positioning. Most modern vocalists have little mic technique so put the mic on a stand in a shock mount and try and keep the vocalist from handling the stand and/or mic. I prefer the vocalist to stand when singing. At recording you may well need to use a compressor as a vocalist can have a very large dynamic range and also be conservative with your levels.

Personally I wouldn't EQ at recording and I'd also avoid adding any reverb at this stage. However if you do want to EQ at recording then you should be HPF'ing out the bass end, which will also help with plosives. (It can also help to turn the mic slightly off axis but it depends on the mic and pattern.) If they are still a problem then either balance mask them or fade edit them. Eq etc should mainly be done at mix down. At mixing you should ensure that the main vox is a focus of the track and so there should be space for it to shine thorugh clearly. That means eq'ing and positioning all the other instruments around it. For lead vox I'd go for at least 8 takes so that I can compile and layer the performance from the takes. Once you've done this then you will probably have to use automated fader rides and some careful compression to accent. Contrary to what most musicians believe Autotune - if done in moderation - is your friend for vocals. Just don't over do it. Backing vox I'd use parallel comp and Haas plus some reverb for ambience but possibly blended with some delay. Personally I'd keep the reverb down so that the main vox still sit forward in the mix.

Almost certainly you'll need to de-ess in the upper mid - it's shocking how many recordings come here to be mastered that haven't been sufficiently de-essed at mixing.

Posted by: Daniel Realpe Jan 24 2012, 08:21 PM

That's some great advice by Tony. Really spot on.

The reverb is a little excessive in my opinion. It would be better to hear her voice a little more present in the mix, and taking out a bit more reverb will do the trick..

I think it's a nice effort, the drums also need a bit more punch, try using different samples for the kickdrum and snare, some that sound punchier and in your face. Compare it to a famous recording you like, sometimes transients take care of that, Logic has some built in ones

Posted by: Dinaga Jan 24 2012, 11:31 PM

Thanks again people for the feedback, great piece of advice and links you're giving me. I believe the next song will have much better mix, after I take everything from here in consideration and try out different approaches.

We'll definitely use more layers from now on (we had about 2-3 for vocals, but now I see more is better), it gives you much more space and options to make the best mix. For example, in this song we recorded the vocals three times, and in the final mix we chose the first verse from the first recording, and the rest from the last recording. And I agree about mic positioning - we tried both above and below mouth mic position before settling for the latter choice... As for the drums, our drummer made them (I don't remember the name of the software he used), we might use EZ Drummer for the next song...

I can't wait for the next song, there's so much to learn and apply.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Jan 25 2012, 09:51 AM

Hey mate! I'm not too big of a fan of the genre, but as Sinisa said, the voice seems a bit under the tone in some places. Regarding your guitarwork, yes! That solo is ripping I say, focus and explore your capabilities as a musician and player and you will only improve! Very nice playing and I am honored to have you as a guest in my collabs!