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GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ Complete Fretboard Knowledge

Posted by: earman Oct 15 2009, 12:30 AM

Hey GMC, I'm wondering how many of you instructors and/or expert players out there know your fretboard up and down note wise. For instance, you can put your finger on any fret on the guitar and within 1 second know which note that is. It seems like if you knew this, improv and any style would become so much easier.

If you do have this down, please share your advice for memorizing the notes.

Thanks in advance.

-Brandon

Posted by: David Wallimann Oct 15 2009, 12:34 AM

QUOTE (earman @ Oct 14 2009, 07:30 PM) *
Hey GMC, I'm wondering how many of you instructors and/or expert players out there know your fretboard up and down note wise. For instance, you can put your finger on any fret on the guitar and within 1 second know which note that is. It seems like if you knew this, improv and any style would become so much easier.

If you do have this down, please share your advice for memorizing the notes.

Thanks in advance.

-Brandon


I don't... I should.. I will!
:-)

Posted by: skennington Oct 15 2009, 12:50 AM

QUOTE (David Wallimann @ Oct 14 2009, 07:34 PM) *
I don't... I should.. I will!
:-)


WHAT! Man I got a long ways to go.... laugh.gif

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 15 2009, 01:04 AM

I can name you any note on the fretboard in one sec as you asked
BUT that doesn't have much to do with improvising after all. smile.gif
It's good for navigation ofc like when you jump from one position to another
but after that we pretty much use familiar fingerings
we learned by playing scales over and over and over,
simple cause we can't process name of each note in real time as we play, play a bit faster.

My advice would be just to think of the notes you play every once in a while,
stop at one point and ask yourself which note is that you're playing.
Dots are also good and very useful, use them. smile.gif

edit: and learn scales in theory if you can, learn notes for every scale,
knowing name for each degree in every scale will surely help as well. smile.gif

Posted by: Ramiro Delforte Oct 15 2009, 01:15 AM

Regarding this topic I've made a few lessons that I think they'll help you to achieve this goal

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/recognizing_neck_positions_101_part_1/

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/recognizing_neck_positions_101_part_2/

I hope you find them useful! smile.gif

Posted by: -Zion- Oct 15 2009, 08:47 AM

QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Oct 15 2009, 02:04 AM) *
I can name you any note on the fretboard in one sec as you asked
BUT that doesn't have much to do with improvising after all. smile.gif
It's good for navigation ofc like when you jump from one position to another
but after that we pretty much use familiar fingerings
we learned by playing scales over and over and over,
simple cause we can't process name of each note in real time as we play, play a bit faster.

My advice would be just to think of the notes you play every once in a while,
stop at one point and ask yourself which note is that you're playing.
Dots are also good and very useful, use them. smile.gif

edit: and learn scales in theory if you can, learn notes for every scale,
knowing name for each degree in every scale will surely help as well. smile.gif


wow.. thats really interesting actually..
i always thought that knowing the notes by heart, would make me a much more awesome guitar player and improviser, but now you are telling me that this aint truly the case.. it will make it easier to "jump around", but you rely on scale shapes..

really interesting.. thanks.. smile.gif
guess i will have to do some scale practice then.. tongue.gif

btw.. at what point should you start to learn a new scale? i have more or less been playing the pentatonic major/minor scales for the past year, and while i am definately improving on it and finding it easier and easier to locate a starting point for playing, i still dont think i am utilizing the scale good enough yet..

I had begun practicing the major scale, and i actually know the positions, but i am actually finding it a bit difficult to incorporate those last two notes in my playing..somehow i don't think it sounds thats good..

so i guess my question is, do i begin practicing a new scale as soon as i know the patterns and can play them so-so, or should i wait until i can play the scale by heart and can make it sound musical?!

Posted by: Matt23 Oct 15 2009, 09:57 AM

I can, and yes it is very useful. I used a program called http://www.tabguitarlessons.com/advanced-fretpro.htm to learn all the notes.

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 15 2009, 12:32 PM

I think I would know every note if you tell me the fret and the string. I agree with Muris, I don't think of that when I improvise. I think of the shape not the full/half steps or note names. I just know which shape to use and it works for me

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Oct 15 2009, 12:52 PM

I can probably tell each note in more or less of a second if you point me there, but as Muris and Emir said already, it's more about relations between the notes, scales and chords regarding improvising.
You have to know the scale patterns (and arpeggio patterns over them) inside out - that is the beginning.
After a while you should develop relative ear in such manner so you tie the intervals to notes if that makes sense. For every note you play, you should be able to anticipate the next one you come up with and know where the finger will go (you don't have to know the note name, but how that note sounds).
Same goes for sequences, if you want to play sequence, like a run for example, you should anticipate the pattern and where it ends. This sounds a bit hard to do, but actually through lot of hard work (constant playing of scales, patterns, arpeggios etc) it slowly becomes second nature in a very straightforward, easy and natural way.

Posted by: Matt23 Oct 15 2009, 12:55 PM

Even if you don't think knowing the notes doesn't help improvising much, it does help a lot of other things.

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 15 2009, 01:06 PM

QUOTE (Matt23 @ Oct 15 2009, 12:55 PM) *
Even if you don't think knowing the notes doesn't help improvising much, it does help a lot of other things.

Of course. The more you know, the better smile.gif

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 15 2009, 02:02 PM

QUOTE (Matt23 @ Oct 15 2009, 01:55 PM) *
Even if you don't think knowing the notes doesn't help improvising much, it does help a lot of other things.


Nobody said that not knowing notes is a plus,
thing is that we are not able to process name of every note when we play in realtime,
we either need faster CPU or more RAM, not sure. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Matt23 Oct 15 2009, 02:06 PM

QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Oct 15 2009, 02:02 PM) *
Nobody said that not knowing notes is a plus,
thing is that we are not able to process name of every note when we play in realtime,
we either need faster CPU or more RAM, not sure. biggrin.gif


biggrin.gif tongue.gif. Seriously though if I'm not playing fast, I'm just playing reasonably slow and melodically, I use my knowledge of notes to help me improvise, so I think if you're not shredding knowing your notes can help improvising.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 15 2009, 02:10 PM

QUOTE (Matt23 @ Oct 15 2009, 03:06 PM) *
biggrin.gif tongue.gif. Seriously though if I'm not playing fast, I'm just playing reasonably slow and melodically, I use my knowledge of notes to help me improvise, so I think if you're not shredding knowing your notes can help improvising.


You still talking about knowing names of every note in realtime
or knowing degrees and how they sound?
Cause that's not the same. smile.gif

Posted by: Matt23 Oct 15 2009, 02:12 PM

QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Oct 15 2009, 02:10 PM) *
You still talking about knowing names of every note in realtime
or knowing degrees and how they sound?
Cause that's not the same. smile.gif


Well I do use my knowledge of intervals as well when I improvise, but yeh I'm still talking about knowing note names in real time.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 15 2009, 02:18 PM

QUOTE (Matt23 @ Oct 15 2009, 03:12 PM) *
Well I do use my knowledge of intervals as well when I improvise, but yeh I'm still talking about knowing note names in real time.


Well that might work for some slower lines etc.
I'm not saying that it's pointless to know names
but it's really impossible to tell every name to yourself when
doing anything a bit faster.
Also it's hard to analyze that, we would need some software
installed in our brains to tells us how really we are aware of every single note name
in realtime as well play.
My guess is still that we are no able to process every single one at high speeds. smile.gif

Posted by: Matt23 Oct 15 2009, 02:23 PM

QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Oct 15 2009, 02:18 PM) *
Well that might work for some slower lines etc.
I'm not saying that it's pointless to know names
but it's really impossible to tell every name to yourself when
doing anything a bit faster.
Also it's hard to analyze that, we would need some software
installed in our brains to tells us how really we are aware of every single note name
in realtime as well play.
My guess is still that we are no able to process every single one at high speeds. smile.gif


Yeh at higher speeds I use patterns, licks and intervals, but at lower speeds, knowing notes is very useful, especially when you're soloing with chord tones.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 15 2009, 02:24 PM

BTW, I'm entering chat right now so we can discuss this topic there. smile.gif

Posted by: sted Oct 15 2009, 08:04 PM

Yeah, my old instructor was a machine when it came to notes, scales, intervals etc he could sight read classical pieces almost immediately BUT....he was trained since the age of about 7 or 8 and instantly knew the relationships between all the notes, which I am sure is where the secret lies to better playing.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 16 2009, 04:25 AM

QUOTE (sted @ Oct 15 2009, 09:04 PM) *
Yeah, my old instructor was a machine when it came to notes, scales, intervals etc he could sight read classical pieces almost immediately BUT....he was trained since the age of about 7 or 8 and instantly knew the relationships between all the notes, which I am sure is where the secret lies to better playing.


I don't believe you MUST start at that age to master fretboard eventually,
it's never late, it's work, work and work. smile.gif

Posted by: djohnneay Oct 16 2009, 11:35 AM

I must disagree with you there Muris, at young age the learning process goes very quick.
How older you get, the harder it is to learn something new. That's also the reason why guitarists who started young can shred blazing fast when they're about 20 years old. That said, it is not totally impossible to learn to shred at age 60, but it requires a lot more work.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 16 2009, 12:23 PM

QUOTE (djohnneay @ Oct 16 2009, 12:35 PM) *
I must disagree with you there Muris, at young age the learning process goes very quick.
How older you get, the harder it is to learn something new. That's also the reason why guitarists who started young can shred blazing fast when they're about 20 years old. That said, it is not totally impossible to learn to shred at age 60, but it requires a lot more work.

Of course, sooner you start the better, I can't disagree on that!
I was just saying that people shouldn't feel bad or deserted for not starting THAT young,
tho I never mentioned age of 60, I was thinking more of 12-18. smile.gif

Posted by: djohnneay Oct 16 2009, 02:10 PM

QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Oct 16 2009, 01:23 PM) *
Of course, sooner you start the better, I can't disagree on that!
I was just saying that people shouldn't feel bad or deserted for not starting THAT young,
tho I never mentioned age of 60, I was thinking more of 12-18. smile.gif


Yeah I thought so, but just to prove my point tongue.gif
I've been banging my head against the wall along time for not starting earlier to learn guitar, but there is nothing I can do about that now, except practice practice practice.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 16 2009, 02:45 PM

QUOTE (djohnneay @ Oct 16 2009, 03:10 PM) *
Yeah I thought so, but just to prove my point tongue.gif
I've been banging my head against the wall along time for not starting earlier to learn guitar, but there is nothing I can do about that now, except practice practice practice.


Practice it is! smile.gif

Posted by: Fran Oct 16 2009, 03:52 PM

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Oct 15 2009, 01:52 PM) *
You have to know the scale patterns (and arpeggio patterns over them) inside out - that is the beginning.


Are there any diagrams showing the arpeggio patterns for pentatonic & minor scale?
Or any lesson you recommend I should look into?



Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 16 2009, 04:27 PM

QUOTE (Fran @ Oct 16 2009, 04:52 PM) *
Are there any diagrams showing the arpeggio patterns for pentatonic & minor scale?
Or any lesson you recommend I should look into?

There is one tiny problem with pentatonic tho,
it offers only 2 triads. smile.gif

Posted by: Fran Oct 16 2009, 04:35 PM

QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Oct 16 2009, 05:27 PM) *
There is one tiny problem with pentatonic tho,
it offers only 2 triads. smile.gif


AaaaHHhH.
##Goes off to research about triads## laugh.gif

I really need to improve my theory knowledge here smile.gif Not really know what triads are although I keep hearing about them here and there. And I know there are a few lessons on triads!

The thing is after learning all penta/minor scale positions I focused on learning lessons/full songs, and I'm having a blast. Just practicing all the lessons & songs day after day so that I don't forget them, and learn a new one now and then, "eats" my time smile.gif

But I'm really interested in arpeggios, something tells me they are key to improvise well. cool.gif
I mean, I already know a bit about them, but would like to find some schematics like the ones I used to learn scale "cages" positions, to incorportae them in my practice routine. I always run scale cages as a warm-up.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 16 2009, 04:42 PM

Triads are most simply chords made of 3 notes, root, 3rd and 5th.
If you take a look at Am penta per example
you'll find only Am triad (A, C and E) and C major triad (C, E and G).
Diatonic scales like major, minor and modes offer 7 triads plus all extended ones like
7th chords, 9th chords etc.
Within Am pentatonic you do have one 7th chords tho, Am7 (A, C, E and G) but that's all.
So what I would suggest you until you get some diagrams for arpeggio shapes
is to find out notes for all triads within certain scale (am scale per example)
and locate those notes on fretboard step by step.
This is also a good exercise to get more familiar with fretboard knowledge which has been
discussed in another topic in this board
plus you get to feel many heureka moments as you discover new shapes,
you'll find all shapes on your own if you simply look for specific notes. smile.gif

Posted by: Fran Oct 16 2009, 04:59 PM

I see. Time to print a BIG fretboard diagram them and stick it to the wall! wink.gif

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 16 2009, 05:05 PM

QUOTE (Fran @ Oct 16 2009, 05:59 PM) *
I see. Time to print a BIG fretboard diagram them and stick it to the wall! wink.gif


Sounds like a plan, go for it! smile.gif

Posted by: Crazy_Diamond Oct 18 2009, 05:23 AM

I use a technique which works with triad from 3 simple chords (E, A and D).

I have wrote a lesson on this subject
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=31321

Enjoy!

Posted by: Conrad Harpham Oct 19 2009, 08:42 PM

The way i learned all my notes was first to learn the bottom E and A string,as you do when you start learning bar chords and moveable scale shapes...i then visualised all my octaves, 2 strings and 2 frets up. That left the top E, thats the same as the bottom E, that just left the B string!...but Muirs and Emir are right-it doesnt really help improvisation- thats more about knowing chord construction and scale shapes.

Posted by: Marcus Siepen Oct 20 2009, 12:18 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Oct 15 2009, 01:32 PM) *
I think I would know every note if you tell me the fret and the string. I agree with Muris, I don't think of that when I improvise. I think of the shape not the full/half steps or note names. I just know which shape to use and it works for me

Same here, it might take me 2 seconds to come up with the note, depending on the time of day and the fact if I already had a coffee, but I also don't really think of notes when improvising.

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