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Posted by: Ben Higgins Feb 10 2012, 10:22 AM

I'm really interested in how picking fast feels for everyone. We're always told to relax and not play with tension, which I agree with. A relaxed muscle moves easier and faster.

However, in order to demand more performance we still have to make our muscles work right ?

I pick from the wrist but when I start speeding up and playing over my comfort zone, I can feel the muscles engaging somewhere above my elbow. It feels like it's either the tricep or behind the tricep. I'm not consciously 'tensing up' the arm but I'm very conscious of the muscle working. It doesn't hurt and I've not suffered any aches or pains because of it. I've managed to increase the speed and stamina of my picking lately and the speeds which previously felt more 'physical' are now a bit less 'physical'.

To all you fast pickers out there, can you describe how it feels when you pick fast ? I think it would help people who are confused about how relaxed they should be and are afraid of pushing their speed boundaries because they see muscle fatigue as tension so they avoid it and stay in a certain range.

Posted by: Sinisa Cekic Feb 10 2012, 05:33 PM

Whether I am a valid person to answer ?
Anyway, quite interesting question. I have never analyzed my technique in that context, but I will try to give a meaningful answer.
So where's the secret IMO ? You should know a few things. The first is - don't exercise speed - exercise routine! Maybe it looks the same, but in fact it is not. You can be the fastest in the world, but if you haven't right technique, alternative picking, needed to shred,you'll be ridiculous :/ ! So,practice slowly !! Be self-critical, each tone should be heard loud and clear. If you make a single mistake- back to the beginning, mistake in tempo - back to the beginning, wrong note - back to the beginning,and so on.

Unfortunately, this is a process that can't be avoided if you want to play really fast. How long will the process take? Depends on you! One year, two, five, ten ....What is important is persistence, not giving up after the first failure. So- faith in yourself!

Technique: I play from the wrist.Forearm muscles suffer the highest loads. It is important that this muscle group is not in the spasm while playing fast. Biggest mistake is to think only about the notes and not notice that the arm is tired - which resulting in fatigue followed by mistakes in playing.
Next would be a "anchored finger" approach.I use pinky of my right hand as the mainstay and support.In this way, resting my hand and arm muscles. Also my palm helps me further- is resting on the bridge and in a same time controls several things: coordination with the left hand, muting the strings, dynamic of playing !
Yes, I know, that sounds a bit confusing, so many operations per second, but the thing is working out, all lie down properly with the time, trust me .

Finally - there is no right and no wrong way! Listen to your body, it will infallibly tell you which way is best for you! Instructors are here to make you aware, perhaps, to other techniques, hand positions, but if you have found the technique that you think will work - go for it !!!! In any case it requires persistence and persistence, and again persistence !

Now select the top five shred guitarists - each has a different technique! What does that tell us ?

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Feb 10 2012, 07:02 PM

Well, it's true that the idea is always to keep our muscles and hands the more relaxed possible... however my experience is that when I'm playing very fast my arm muscles contracts and when I reach to my limit (around 150/155 bpm), the contraction is important. I don't think that this is ok, I'm working on being more relaxed even at high speeds.. I think that I will be able to increase my limits if I achieve it.
I also hold my pick stronger when I play faster... this is very progressive from slow to speed playing... the reason for this is to make the picking more effective, the pick doesn't move and is ready to pick again in the inverse direction. For this reason I have to play stronger and this generates more use of the muscles, and also more contraction. My movement is the most common, I move mainly my wrist.. but the whole motion starts a bit from the elbow.

Posted by: derper Feb 10 2012, 07:27 PM

Thanks all!! Lovin' this thread!! I really don't have much to add, as speed picking is my weakness. But thanks for the tips!

Posted by: Ben Higgins Feb 10 2012, 08:05 PM

Yeah that sounds pretty similar to me

I imagine you mean 150/155bpm in triplets ? How are you getting on with Extreme Neo Classic ?



Good.. this is exactly what I want it to be here for.. to demistify speed picking. Now we just need Captain Todd Simpson to storm in with some killer input !



Yes you are.. we know how fast that right hand is !

Posted by: Azzaboi Feb 10 2012, 08:13 PM

Fast picking is NOT just going nuts, playing as fast as you can, but all about REDUCING DISTANCE, tension and muscle movement.

If you want to speed pick, you should change the picking hands thumb from flexing, LOCK THE THUMB in place and most will use the wrist to pick from. The idea is make the movement very slight each way, locking the thumb down and moving the wrist requires less effect for more.

You want to use just the tip of the pick and REDUCE RESISTANCES as much as possible, as this will just slow you down. Lots of practice is required for this, ensure your pick isn't digging into the strings when at speed - just brush the pick over the string, don't raise or lower the pick too much, keep it near the string at all times and alternative picking should drift more than a few millimeters away from the string.

PICK ANGLE is important. Never angle the pick down or up from the string, it cheats and makes picking one direction easier but makes the other direction a nightmare. You can rotate it and change the picking attack, for example so the picking hand thumb is pointing down at a 45 degrees angle. This changes the tone/effect but normally sounds better and more aggressive while also reducing the amount of pick touching the string even more.

Paul Gilbert picking style I found the best to use:


Entirely up to you how you pick however, pick what is natural and comfortable to you.

The key through all this is to stay RELAXED and not tense, as you build up slowly your get to a point where your'll start tensing up. Push it a bit then slow back down to a relaxed point, it's always good to stop when relaxed and never play anything too long if tensed - else this will teach bad habits and slow you down. If you do tense up, stop for a bit, shake it out, and only play again when relaxed.

FOCUSING to little on picking creates bad habits, however focusing too much can tense you up and slow you down even more. You should give it some attention to ensure your picking correctly, then ignore it and focus on something else like the tv, etc. Your picking hand will naturally build up more speed and stay relaxed that way. If you get blocked, relook at the picking, check it's correct and start slowly again building it up to speed.

Hope that helps some that haven't seen this before, have fun, and quoting the speed master Todd "PRACTICE!"

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Feb 10 2012, 10:39 PM

yes! Well, I answered this question in the Vchat! Sorry that in the end I lost my connection!

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 10 2012, 10:46 PM

BEN! I know exactly what you mean. It's very natural to bring the bigger guns to bear when focusing on a problem like that. In my experience though, I"ve had to fight it like crazy or it actually makes me play slower and burns out my hand quicker.

I had to train my hand/body to not let it tense up as speed increased. A lot of what Azza is saying in his post is great info. Way to go azza! I talk about a lot of that stuff in chat. Sort of like reducing wasted motion in karate/kung fu, the same applies to picking but on a nano-scale. At speed, your dealing in microsecond so too much wag beyond the pick strike will just gum things up. Training the hand to stay in a very tight range of just a few millimeters feels like microsurgery at first. But gets less alien over time thank goodness.

I made a video just for this post that will hopefully help a bit. It's a close up on the right hand. Notice how it doesn't even look like my pick hand is moving very fast, and it doesn't look like it's working very hard. I am taking advantage of the natural motion of the hand and leveraging economic picking for ascending string traverse and leveraging alternate picking for descending string traverse. Oh yeah, and I use crazy sharp picks to reduce the amount of contact the pick has with the string.

Let me know if this makes sense

P.S. That bit in pauls video where he talks about not playing with the pick parallel to the string is crucial. I do the same thing


*Notice that the pick is more vertical to the string than horizontal. Coupled with a sharp pick, this greatly reduces the amount of pick hitting the string. I choke up very close to the tip when playing so a little hand tilt and you get pinch harmonics. Never know where you might them. I need them everywhere

*Notice all the action happening below the wrist and not above. I'm not in full on shred here, just casual pick demonstration, but even at top speed I try to keep my hand about this loose and stil pick from the wrist.

Posted by: Saddlefall Feb 12 2012, 12:18 AM

I feel the exact same thing when playing fast riff like Iced Earth Travel in Stygian for example. (slowly building up too 100% speed) Makes me sweat buckets too, screw going for a run, play guitar instead!

Posted by: Ben Higgins Feb 12 2012, 11:01 AM

Yeah, those riffs get to you don't they ?

Speaking of Iced Earth, I may be working on something right now......

Posted by: Saddlefall Feb 12 2012, 11:35 AM

Awesome!

Posted by: Ben Higgins Feb 19 2012, 05:02 PM

Hey Guys, I thought I'd resurrect this thread because I found a video of Jeff Waters talking about speed picking (thanks to Gabriel and his Jeff Waters thread) and I think it's very applicable to this discussion. His approach is similar to mine and he quite freely admits how physical it is. It really gets going around 1:59 but I recommend watching it from the start

Posted by: maharzan Feb 20 2012, 09:01 AM

Great Video Todd. It looks you are actually picking slow but damn thats one speed there.

I too had pains in my triceps area when I practiced speed. It naturally just tends to tighten up everything with the right hand. I think for me, when that happens, I am pushing my comfortable zone a bit so next time I play, it feels much easier. But as Todd said we have to learn to relax the right hand and As Guthrie says, its not about the right hand actually. Even if we are playing one note the right hand can do all the magic playing super fast even without tensing up. Left hand it all that lags behind and normally, we can't separate the actions to both our hands. So, if we tense the left hand, right hand will tense up too. This might be a natural process for beginners so until we learn to separate these two interconnections, we won't be able to relax the right hand.

Posted by: JaxN4 Feb 20 2012, 12:49 PM

great video Ben.... very good tips.

cheers

Posted by: dark dude Feb 20 2012, 06:13 PM

Aye, nice video, cheers.

I was reluctant to post as I don't believe that I can pick very fast, however my picking only gets pretty physical when doing down-picking, something like Creeping Death by Metallica, for instance. Although, it might be that I haven't been practicing that long enough, and (chances are) it should be more relaxed, so I'm working on that.

For the rest of my picking, I feel my forearm getting more tense now and again and a slither of tension in my wrist.

Posted by: Marcus Desaiha Feb 20 2012, 06:23 PM

Interesting Topic!
When you play in a relaxed state you tend to use your brachioradialis(Popeye's muscle ) muscle, which moves your wrist, but as you speed up and get more tence your deltoid/shouldermuscle starts to do some of the work(And it is almost impossible to avoid this from happening, since your deltoid muscle has a big purpose, and gets engaged in almost every activity you do.) This is why it is important to stretch this part of the body before playing at high speeds, it makes that muscle loose and easier to work with. It is very well explained here from Petruccis DVD Rock Discipline at 0:57 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XsLRQFV7rY (though 10 seconds is not enough as he claims , a stretch should always be done in between 17 and 25 seconds and be done more than once.

I've heard alot of diffrent theories on how you should be picking fast, that you should only use small muscles or big muscles to escape from long term injuries. But I think that you should listen to your body, if it feels ok, its ok.
I get the exact feeling your describing, but I just try to make the best out of it and have a good stretch before a practice session to keep my form and my picking relaxed. The relaxation graduately becomes better in due time, the body is something you can adjust and modify, it just does not happen over night.

PS: Try to give thoose muscles which you use a massage as well to get an exact idea on how they feel and work. When picking, that your left hand and squeeze them abit, get a good idea on what they´re doing. This might raise your consciousness about them when picking, and sort of controll it abit better. (Just taken from my own experience, not a fact.)

PS: While picking you can try and feel thoose muscles with your left hand, get a feel of how they work and what they´re doing.
This might raise your consciousness/awareness about them, and help control them a little bit (My own experience, not a fact!"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Muscles_anterior_labeled.png <- LINK

Posted by: Ben Higgins Feb 20 2012, 07:08 PM

Brilliant input Marcus, thanks !

The way I look at it is: A fast picking motion doesn't just happen by magic.. there's no little fairies sprinkling magic dust and making tendons go faster somehow. In order for a body part to move, a msucle has to be engaged by the brain.

I think people who are still learning picking etc take the advice to completely relax and avoid tension so literally that at the first sign of muscular input they stop because they think they're doing something wrong.

I think it's like learning or developing any new skill that involves physicality. At first, you're acutely aware of being tense and using strength and stamina etc but after a while the effort needed to perform the task is less noticeable because the muscles and tendons improve their capability to cope with the demand but to improve in anything takes effort. Effort is at the heart of improving at anything.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 21 2012, 01:20 AM

Ouch! Sadly this guy is actually doing the exact opposite of what I usually teach students to do. I see this quite a bit and usually try to re-train people out of it. Not to say any one way is perfect, or any style or approach is perfect. This obviously works well for this guy and his style of play.

Having said that, he's clearly picking from the elbow. This is fine for fast single string work, or even rythm playing. But for multi string passages, IMHO this style of picking can actually hinder your ability to maintain your speed over a stretch of ground. This approach often works best in triples, or chunks of riffs/notes, but it's not built for sustained use. The major muscle groups will simply burn out too quickly to allow for extended play. But maybe thats not important here. He's doing what he wants and it sounds good so he's doing it "right" for him.

For a lead player, especially one I was trying to instruct, I'd suggest a less physical approach focused more on the wrist. when done well, it looks like you are playing slowly, and barely exerting an effort at all. In fact, you are barely exerting any effort at all when done in the wrist/finger approach so you can keep it up forever.

Thanks! And BINGO! You nailed it! It's a very natural response to tense the hand/arm/upper body, when speed increases. It's something you have to fight or it will take over. As Guthrie mentions, it's more about the left hand and the right hand is just getting tight as a sympathetic response. Training this out takes serious work. That' why I'm always stopping during chat lessons and saying "stay loose" "shake it out" or "stay loose, play fast". You have to constantly remind yourself to over ride this instinct or it will keep on keeping on




BEN: BINGO AGAIN! Yup! That's the real "Secret" sauce to the entire thing. You can't force relaxation so much that you stop playing at the first tension, and you can't just flip a switch and play in a relaxed way @ 1000 MPH. It takes time. It takes practice. Just like any other technique. Training your brain/hands to do something that is 180 degrees counter intuitive/counter instinctive is like training yourself not to breathe fast while you are running. The body just wants to do it it's own way. But with time/effort/loads of patience (or defiant persistance as the case may be), it becomes just another thing.

I personally came to it after I hit the wall and could not play any faster and could not play fast for very long. That's about the time I got carpal tunnel in both arms. I thought I could "fight through the pain" and play faster. I was wrong. While my arm were healing I could barely use any force at all without TREMENDOUS pain. So I had to learn how to pick more gently and not use my arms which were injured. So I sort of learned by default as straying from it was horribly painful.

Posted by: Ben Higgins Feb 21 2012, 10:49 AM

Todd, are you sure he's picking from the elbow ? It doesn't look that way to me ? Here's another vid of his showing it close up



Not saying you're wrong of course.. you may be right about it !

This is definite picking from the elbow.. Slayer's Jeff Hanneman !!



Hurts just looking at it !

Posted by: SpaseMoonkey Feb 21 2012, 12:12 PM

If you watch Jeff's he looks like he locks up and gets super tense when he plays his solo. I guess that why a majority of the time Kerry King records all the guitar parts on the albums.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 22 2012, 01:49 AM

I'm sure he is doing do it, he's not doing it constantly though. Check the video at about 1:17 or so. Granted it's a single string bit, but it's purely from the elbow. He does vary it up though during other passages. It's only the elbow picking that I'd encourage folks to avoid if they can.

Look again at around 3:00 he's picking from the elbow so hard he even talks about his trapezious muscles tensing up. Not to mention his popeye muscles tensing. Notice his wrist is barely bending, and how tense he is at these times?

That's one way, and it works for him But yeah, doing it that way tends to burn out your muscles pretty quick and limits your speed and endurance IMHO. So learning to make it sound fast, while picking from the wrist forward (instead of wrist back elbow/shoulder) it's possible to gain speed and endurance. Though it does feel counterintuitive for a year or two.

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Even that bit around 1:17 could be done with a much lighter approach and picked from the wrist. That's sorta why I shot that video of just my right hand. To illustrate how even when barely using the left hand, you can still pick quite fast. My left hand is working quite a bit, but I've cut the pressure off on the right hand so the hands are working at two separate tension levels. What often happens is that people let left hand tension drift on to their right hand.

It did take some serious pain during play for me to learn to play loose and still play fast. Not that I'd suggest injuring yourself just to use it as a training technique.

Posted by: Ben Higgins Feb 22 2012, 08:43 AM

You're right, it does look elbow induced ! Owww Didn't see that before.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 23 2012, 12:11 AM

I see this quite often when instructing students on breaking through their 'Speed Barrier". Everyone has one, just like I do. Breaking down the things that are keeping the hands from optimal movement is just one link in the chain, and it's a long chain

See how tense he gets? That's certainly one way to do it, and lots of my fav bands play like that. But in order to have enough endurance to play at high speed for long enough to work on improvements and slight increases, it's often better to find a way to separate left from right hand in terms of tensions. If they ratchet up at the same time, this sort of thing happens.

That tension he is talking about in the video and pointing to his shoulder and such, is something I"m always talking about in chat. That tension can kill your endurance. And we pick like mad men for two hours so we need all the endurance we can get

Posted by: Ben Higgins Feb 23 2012, 10:49 AM

Yeah totally.. I think people can make anything work for them somehow. Some of those extreme bands somehow manage to keep going for entire sets, night after night.. but ultimately avoiding that tension is much more comfortable and efficient