Why Not To Use Pirated Software, Some personal thoughts for debate
Saoirse O'Shea
Nov 12 2007, 11:25 PM
Moderator - low level high stakes
Posts: 6.173
Joined: 27-June 07
From: Espania - Cadiz province
Why not to use pirated or cracked software

Five reasons not to use cracked software:


1) It is theft and therefore illegal.
2) It results ultimately in fewer and more expensive software products.
3) It is a ‘poor’ way to repay the music community.
4) It is often ‘malware’ and can potentially damage your pc.
5) It is GMC policy not to condone the use or discussion of where and how to get/use ‘crackware’ and illegal filesharing.


It seems opportune to write this now and pin it as a closed thread. I have and use a fair few pieces of music software - commercial, shareware and freeware – sitting on my music PC are sequencers like Reaper, Live!, Reason; the wave editors Audacity and Cool Edit; various soft synths including Reaktor, Sylenth, Pentagon and Atmosphere; two samplers Kontakt and Halion; and various effects and mastering tools including ones from PSP, Sonalkis, Har-Bal and Ozone. If I was to add up the cost of all of this and tell my wife it would probably lead to a divorce. If she knew how much I spend just updating these she would have a fit!

All my software – not just music – however is legal. I don’t use pirated or ‘crackware’ – never have and never will. If I can’t afford some software then I will in the first instance attempt to get a shareware or freeware version. If none are available that I like then I wait until I have saved the money and then buy the software. I don’t have a high income so saving up potentially hundreds of Euros can take me a while and I often find it frustrating to have to wait. But wait I do and what follows are my reasons why I do this rather then use ‘crackware’.

Moral and ethical considerations.
I lecture in Ethics and Morals and one early lecture is a discussion that is extremely relevant to his subject. In it I argue (backed up by some philosophical heavyweights) that the rule that we should live by is basically one of ‘do unto others as you would like done to you’. Or to put this another way: if I steal then I must accept it without complaint if someone broke in to my house and stole all my guitars. ‘Crackware’ is theft and I don’t want someone stealing my possessions.

In most countries software piracy is a felony – not just pirating software but having and using it. It is breaking the law. Like it or not we live in a society and as such should abide by its laws. The laws are there to help maintain and protect society so if you break the law by using ‘crackware’ then expect to pay the price.

It seems that some view piracy as something ‘cool’ that they do as a mark of their ‘living on the edge’ of society or outside it. If you wish to live outside society then you should repay what you have had from it first. Curiously I have yet to meet anyone who has repaid society adequately for their housing, healthcare, education and so on.

Music software is expensive to develop, test, debug and market. Many of the companies involved are small operations. Many make little profit and are often run by a few people who are just passionate about music. ‘Crackware’ eats in to profit both because it reduces revenue and because it means that the companies spend time and money implementing protection routines. Sooner or later someone pays for the lost revenue and increased costs – either the price of the product goes up and/or the company uses time implementing protection rather then coding new or improved products and/or the organization goes bust and/or the staff in the company are paid less or lose their jobs. So ‘crackware’ costs us all –for customers via fewer, more expensive products; and for staff in lost income and jobs.

I’ve spent many years in and around the recording industry and am lucky enough to know a number of people and to have learnt from them. They have a passion for music, recording and technology. In my experience people are nearly always generous with their time and help and often view this as a way of repaying the help and advice they received along the way. If you look at the boards of the music software forums you can see many of these people providing help and advice. Music production and recording is a small community. Using ‘crackware’ isn’t stealing from someone unknown – you may well be stealing from someone who has given you help and guidance or from whom you might need to help in the future.

Music production and recording is a community – a small scale society if you will. If you use ‘crackware’ then you can’t expect to be well received in the community. Take a look at the number of flames in the forums when someone using ‘crackware’ asks for help. Personally I never refuse to help but if I suspect the person is using ‘crackware’ then my help is restricted to advising them to read the manual or contact the software company.


Technical reasons not to use ‘crackware’
Most ‘crackware’ is downloaded from P2P sites. These sites often include items which contain viruses, Trojans and other malicious code. If you use ‘crackware’ you are actively choosing to download and run potentially malicious code.

Virus guards are not ideal for a DAW as most run in the background and monitor activity. Recording and mixing on a DAW takes time and an active, resident virus guard can have a detrimental affect on your pcs performance, slowing it down, reducing hard disc speed or activating when you least want it.

Because of theft most music software companies now protect their software either physically – ie via a dongle – or through software through some form of password code. I stopped using and buying software that is hardware protected partly because I got fed up with losing the dongles and having to spend time searching for them. In some instances hardware protection can cause incompatibility problems with pc hardware or other software that may result in a pc crash, poor performance or software that runs irratically or not at all. So my choice in software is restricted to those that do not use hardware protection.

Software protection is often some form of call and response system. For these systems I find that I have to keep a file of passwords, serial numbers and so on. Everytime I upgrade I have to dig the file out to find this information. Some of my software is locked to a pc component – the hard disc, network card and so on. If I change a component I then have to go through the task of re-authorising my software. Some software is coded to the original installation disc – lose the disc, or just don’t have it to hand, and the software won’t run. All of these methods require time that I would rather spend doing something else with.

So protecting software doesn’t just end up in additional development time and costs and therefore a more expensive product. It also results in inconvenience and may reduce choice and cause technical problems for the legitimate end-user.

Music software is in a state of continual development. The programs are often large and complicated and despite debugging a new version will often be followed up by a number of bug fixes and improvements or feature additions downloadable from the developer’s site. Access to these downloads nearly always requires product registration and so is not available to ‘crackware’ users. In a similar vein product registration is also nearly always required to access technical support. ‘Crackware’ has no technical support. Ironically ‘crackware’ that is ‘malware’ may actually cause technical problems.

Very recently there have some threads about whether we can download the backing tracks and/or lesson videos from GMC. These are both the exclusive intellectual property of, and copyrighted to, GMC and if someone pirated them it would result in lost income for GMC. Without this income GMC might cease to exist and we would all suffer as a result: we would lose the lessons, the instructors would lose an outlet for their lessons and skills and all the work that Kris, Henrik and Maria have put in would come to nothing. I’m sure that’s not an outcome any of us would want.

Software piracy is the theft of intellectual property and as such GMC cannot and will not condone it, or discussions of where to get or how to do file-sharing, cracked software and so on.[i]

Cheers,
Tony

ps - stickied but open for debate.

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Fsgdjv
Nov 13 2007, 02:36 AM
GMC:er
Posts: 1.255
Joined: 12-April 07
QUOTE (tonymiro @ Nov 12 2007, 11:25 PM) *
Why not to use pirated or cracked software
Or to put this another way: if I steal then I must accept it without complaint if someone broke in to my house and stole all my guitars. ‘Crackware’ is theft and I don’t want someone stealing my possessions.

...

Technical reasons not to use ‘crackware’
Most ‘crackware’ is downloaded from P2P sites. These sites often include items which contain viruses, Trojans and other malicious code. If you use ‘crackware’ you are actively choosing to download and run potentially malicious code.


First of all, good post with lots of valid arguments, however, there are some things I've got to say.

Filesharing is not like somebody going in and stealing all your guitars, it's more like someone coing in and copying your guitars and not paying you for it. (I personally wouldn't mind that)

And, you don't get viruses, trojans, etc from serious P2P sites, I'm not telling everybody do go and download everything, but I still want the truth to be told.

And, a personal note to everything about this. I don't think you should download stuff illegaly if you don't have to, try to find shareware and so on, and for the love of god, buy it if you can! But if you're young and/or poor and it's the only way to get something done and you really wouldn't have been able to do it otherwise, I won't mind. Just once you have the money for it, buy it. That's my standpoint, and I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, but this is how I look at piracy. (But when it comes to downloading music, movies and especially tv-series I have a completely different view that won't be discussed here laugh.gif )

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swingline
Nov 13 2007, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 12 2007, 05:36 PM) *
Filesharing is not like somebody going in and stealing all your guitars, it's more like someone coing in and copying your guitars and not paying you for it. (I personally wouldn't mind that)

Your full of crap! You would care, its like in school you do your homework and everyone else copies it you feel screwed because your the only one who did it and everyone else got a free ride. If you bought a 1500 dollar guitar and every one else got it for free how would you feel. Its all the same say I buy Adobe Photoshop CS3 for upwards of 600 dollars, but you got it for free I'd be pissed and you would to if it was the other way around. So don't lie to me, yourself, or anyone else.

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blindwillie
Nov 13 2007, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (swingline @ Nov 13 2007, 03:08 PM) *
Your full of crap!

Please tone down this a bit. No need to insult anyone who has a different opinion.

QUOTE (DeepRoots @ Nov 13 2007, 02:54 AM) *
Crackware shouldnt:

...
be discussed
...

My brother designs software for a living, if due to piracy he was unable to find work..it would ruin his many years of education and would be unable to start a family with his girlfriend.

I'd feel crushed if that were me...

Big fat no as far as i'm concerned!


I disagree strongly with this. Of course it should be discussed. Everyone is entitled their opinion. If it wasn't for past piracy, would he even have the opportunity to develop software now?

QUOTE (tonymiro @ Nov 12 2007, 11:25 PM) *
Why not to use pirated or cracked software

Five reasons not to use cracked software:
1) It is theft and therefore illegal.
2) It results ultimately in fewer and more expensive software products.
3) It is a ‘poor’ way to repay the music community.
4) It is often ‘malware’ and can potentially damage your pc.
5) It is GMC policy not to condone the use or discussion of where and how to get/use ‘crackware’ and illegal filesharing.

...

Cheers,
Tony

ps - stickied but open for debate.


I'm uncertain about posting this because bottom line is you are right and I don't promote piracy in no way, which I suspect this post could look like. I do disagree on some points though and would like to vent my opinions because as I see it this is not a simple matter. It's not as easy as a legal/illegal situation. Many tend to apply their own moral and claim that this is the right way. I want people to look at all sides and you left the thread open for debating.

1) No. It's illegal but it's NOT theft. I don't know the english legal terms when it comes to intellectual property, it's copyright infringement or something like that . Might be that different countries have different definitons of it, but I don't know of any that defines it as theft.

2) This can be, and is argued about. I'm sure you know that. Without piracy computers wouldn't be in the homes of as many families as it is today. Computers and software wouldn't be available at the prices they are today. Without pirated software I'm sure computers would be a very exclusive, extremely high priced technology available only to a few. Piracy laid the ground for the computer and software business as it is today. And it is a HUGE market, increasing for every day.

3) Yes. It is. I agree on that.

4) Yes. This is true too.

5) And it's a good policy. Since it is illegal GMC should in no way condone it.

Piracy is a crime. It is illegal. There is nothing to argue about that.

What should be discussed is if the laws are up to date and valid today.
Discuss the morals of software companies and media companies and politicians. The EULAs that you "sign" by opening a box and puts responsibilitys on you without an opportunity to disagree. Often they are in direct conflict with (at least in Sweden) local laws. The disclaimers that frees the company from all responsabilty of their product.

The copyright laws weren't written to protect an outdated business model. They was to encourage creativity. The purpose was NOT to ensure payment to the creator. Having artistic work protected for, I think it's 70 years after the makers death in Sweden, is NOT encouraging creativity. The pace today is to high for a timespan like that.

Of course the producer should get paid if you use their product (and they want payment) but as it is today it is getting more and more ridiculous. Dongles and software protection, EULA's. You are only "leasing" the product. It's not your own to do as you please with. Stealthy installed root-kits. Stealthy installed copy protection mechanisms that not only affects the application but your whole computer with slowdowns, phoning home, makes your CD/DVD useless, occupies memory and CPU resources. And so on.

All they are accomplishing is problems for the paying customer. The ones who download pirated software aren't affected since this stuff gets removed. There are plenty of examples of software that, to the customer, works better if it's cracked.

I'll just give one live example of this.
My wife loves games like Settlers, the MS one (can't remember the name now) and Sims.
She's bought every single game and addon in those series.

After awhile she started to complain that her computer was slow and sluggish. I knew about EA's (Electronic Arts) copy protection and told her so. Mail them and tell them and don't buy their stuff. But she really wants to play them. She mailed them and got a standard disclaimer auto response.

Then she bought Black and White 2 and now the fun starts. The game never starts. Ever.
Some research show that it installs a protection against virtual drives which was incompatible with her DVD drive. And The Sims stopped working too. Software from the same company, and their protection excluded each other. More mailing and non sense responses. EA ,officially, knew nothing about any copy protection that could cause that. Probably that's true. First Lionhead make the game, then an outside company is contracted for the protection then EA distributes it. So I guess technically EA wasn't responsible. EAs answer was "upgrade the graphics driver(duh!)". OK I've done that. "upgrade the sound driver". OK I've done that. "Replace the DVD drive". No way! I've traced it down to your copy protection, you turned down the proof I sent you without any explanation. I was active mailing them for 2 - 3 weeks and in their forums, together with others with the same problem and pinpointed down the problem but as soon as copy protection was mentioned it was met with dead silence from EA.
To put it mildly, that kind of ticked me off. Yes, that's the way to treat your customers.
Luckily we still had two choises. Return it or crack it, a game we paid for, to get what we paid for.
Actually we did neither. The game just lays in a shelf. No one has ever played it, I never got to going through the trouble of returning it.

Don't make this a black or white discussion (no pun intened) or a legal/illegal discussion. It's not that easy.
Don't follow laws blindly. Change them. Make the laws reasonable for the intended purpose. Not to protect a business model that's outdated.

In these kind of discussions sooner or later the argument comes along that the creator should be able to make a living of his/her work.
NO! That's not valid! Nothing is worth more then someone else is willing to pay for it. That's a basic commercial rule. If I can't make a living of what I'm doing I'd better start looking for another job.
If you write songs or play guitar but you can't make a living of it... tough luck. Get a job. I had too. Most people have to. If I write software (well, in most cases I'm probably employed and get paid for that) why should that be a guarantee to a secured future fro me, my family and future kids of kids?
Note: I was a software developer and I do play guitar.

Art and creativity in all forms should be encouraged and there have to be laws regulating it, but that's not equal to "I have the right to be rich on this". Or "The company representing me have the right to be rich on this". The laws are outdated and not valid anymore. What needs to be done is a complete remake. We need to decide what we want to achive and how the laws could support that. Do we want to encourage creativity? Do we want to protect the right to be paid when someone else uses it? Do we want to ensure the profit for a huge industry? Then set the laws accordingly.

And artists, don't be fooled. You sell your soul to the media company when you sign up. I don't think that's the best thing for an artist nor that it is good for art.

These are my opinions.

/edited for some spelling and also I misread an earlier post.

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This post has been edited by blindwillie: Nov 13 2007, 08:52 PM


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Posts in this topic
- tonymiro   Why Not To Use Pirated Software   Nov 12 2007, 11:25 PM
- - Owen   Well said. EDIT - duplicate post deleted Owen ...   Nov 13 2007, 01:21 AM
|- - fkalich   QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 12 2007, 07:36 PM) Fi...   Nov 13 2007, 04:10 AM
||- - Fsgdjv   QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 13 2007, 04:10 AM) A...   Nov 13 2007, 04:19 AM
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|- - radarlove1984   QUOTE (swingline @ Nov 13 2007, 06:08 AM)...   Nov 14 2007, 05:04 AM
|- - ActiveX   QUOTE (radarlove1984 @ Nov 13 2007, 08:04...   Nov 14 2007, 07:01 AM
|- - radarlove1984   QUOTE (ActiveX @ Nov 13 2007, 10:01 PM) I...   Nov 14 2007, 10:14 AM
|- - blindwillie   QUOTE (ActiveX @ Nov 14 2007, 07:01 AM) I...   Nov 14 2007, 03:57 PM
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- - DeepRoots   Crackware shouldnt: be used be discussed exist. ...   Nov 13 2007, 02:54 AM
- - Cherio   Very well said And I agree with all of you. Cheri...   Nov 13 2007, 03:05 AM
|- - muris   Try before buy. Sadly,many stay off buying   Nov 13 2007, 03:37 AM
|- - Andrew Cockburn   QUOTE (muris @ Nov 12 2007, 09:37 PM) Try...   Nov 13 2007, 03:47 AM
|- - Fsgdjv   QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 13 2007, 03...   Nov 13 2007, 04:01 AM
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- - The Uncreator   Excellent Tony, very well put   Nov 13 2007, 03:44 AM
- - The Uncreator   Plus its way cooler to have a CD Collection than a...   Nov 13 2007, 03:51 AM
- - Vinicitur   I won't insult everyone by saying that I'v...   Nov 13 2007, 04:02 AM
- - fkalich   It is not like the kid is stealing bread because h...   Nov 13 2007, 04:39 AM
- - FretDancer69   There's an interesting point of view about pir...   Nov 13 2007, 04:43 AM
- - Fsgdjv   to fkalich: Even though he isn't hungry, he...   Nov 13 2007, 04:44 AM
|- - fkalich   QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 12 2007, 09:44 PM) to...   Nov 13 2007, 05:00 AM
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- - Fsgdjv   fkalich: Good for you, but I don't follow laws...   Nov 13 2007, 05:04 AM
- - tonymiro   QUOTE (FretDancer69 @ Nov 12 2007, 09:43 ...   Nov 13 2007, 05:59 AM
- - Animosity   QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 12 2007, 10:04 PM) fk...   Nov 13 2007, 06:33 AM
|- - Fsgdjv   QUOTE (Animosity @ Nov 13 2007, 06:33 AM)...   Nov 13 2007, 06:52 AM
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- - Animosity   QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 12 2007, 11:52 PM) I ...   Nov 13 2007, 09:04 AM
|- - Fsgdjv   QUOTE (Animosity @ Nov 13 2007, 09:04 AM)...   Nov 13 2007, 02:51 PM
|- - MickeM   QUOTE (Animosity @ Nov 13 2007, 09:04 AM)...   Nov 13 2007, 07:52 PM
|- - fkalich   QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 13 2007, 12:52 PM) Wh...   Nov 14 2007, 05:31 AM
||- - MickeM   QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 14 2007, 05:31 AM) G...   Nov 14 2007, 07:58 AM
||- - fkalich   QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 14 2007, 12:58 AM) St...   Nov 14 2007, 09:15 AM
|||- - MickeM   QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 14 2007, 09:15 AM) T...   Nov 14 2007, 04:21 PM
|||- - fkalich   QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 14 2007, 09:21 AM) Th...   Nov 15 2007, 03:36 AM
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||- - shredmandan   QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 14 2007, 01:58 AM) ch...   Nov 14 2007, 09:37 AM
||- - fkalich   QUOTE (shredmandan @ Nov 14 2007, 02:37 A...   Nov 14 2007, 10:04 AM
||- - blindwillie   QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 14 2007, 10:04 AM) T...   Nov 14 2007, 06:12 PM
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|- - shredmandan   QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 13 2007, 01:52 PM) Wh...   Nov 14 2007, 05:32 AM
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- - ActiveX   I don't know if this is coincidence or not, bu...   Nov 13 2007, 12:40 PM
- - tonymiro   ***Impartial moderator voice on** * Guys keep it c...   Nov 13 2007, 06:59 PM
- - The Uncreator   Valid argument, BUT, Still, this is something cons...   Nov 13 2007, 08:11 PM
- - DeepRoots   i think its ridiculous to try to justify pirated s...   Nov 13 2007, 08:55 PM
|- - blindwillie   QUOTE (DeepRoots @ Nov 13 2007, 08:55 PM)...   Nov 13 2007, 09:02 PM
|- - MickeM   QUOTE (DeepRoots @ Nov 13 2007, 08:55 PM)...   Nov 13 2007, 10:47 PM
|- - Andrew Cockburn   QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 13 2007, 04:47 PM) I ...   Nov 13 2007, 11:17 PM
|- - blindwillie   QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 13 2007, 11...   Nov 13 2007, 11:49 PM
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- - tonymiro   QUOTE (blindwillie @ Nov 13 2007, 01:40 P...   Nov 14 2007, 12:11 AM
- - Fsgdjv   I said I wouldn't post any more that wasn...   Nov 14 2007, 01:45 AM
- - ibanezkiller   QUOTE (swingline @ Nov 13 2007, 09:08 AM)...   Nov 14 2007, 01:56 AM
- - tonymiro   QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 13 2007, 06:45 PM) Fi...   Nov 14 2007, 02:06 AM
- - Fsgdjv   Yeah Tony, I'm aware of that, and that's o...   Nov 14 2007, 02:13 AM
- - tonymiro   np mate - it was sort of less to you and more a ge...   Nov 14 2007, 02:16 AM
|- - Andrew Cockburn   And for the record, my edit was more about the big...   Nov 14 2007, 02:34 AM
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- - Owen   First of all, Kudos to blindwillie, his post made ...   Nov 14 2007, 02:32 AM
- - tonymiro   Apologies Andrew - my mistake. Cheers, Tony   Nov 14 2007, 04:33 AM
- - Animosity   QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 13 2007, 12:52 PM) Wh...   Nov 14 2007, 04:51 AM
|- - Fsgdjv   QUOTE (Animosity @ Nov 14 2007, 04:51 AM)...   Nov 14 2007, 06:22 AM
|- - MickeM   QUOTE (Animosity @ Nov 14 2007, 04:51 AM)...   Nov 14 2007, 07:37 AM
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- - steve25   Interesting discussion. I'm not going to take ...   Nov 14 2007, 05:14 AM
- - FretDancer69   Really good post radarlove. I agree with you on ma...   Nov 14 2007, 05:19 AM
- - bad_tel   im all for it sving money why pay £££££ when ...   Nov 14 2007, 05:30 AM
- - bad_tel   1 question have none of you ever downloaded a song...   Nov 14 2007, 05:49 AM
|- - Vinicitur   QUOTE (bad_tel @ Nov 14 2007, 12:49 AM) 1...   Nov 14 2007, 02:51 PM
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- - radarlove1984   While I agree with that basic principle of breakin...   Nov 14 2007, 05:52 AM
- - Owen   QUOTE (bad_tel @ Nov 14 2007, 04:49 AM) 1...   Nov 14 2007, 05:56 AM
|- - steve25   QUOTE (Owen @ Nov 14 2007, 06:56 AM) The ...   Nov 14 2007, 06:54 AM
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- - Animosity   QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 13 2007, 11:22 PM) De...   Nov 14 2007, 06:27 AM
|- - Hemlok   QUOTE (Animosity @ Nov 14 2007, 05:27 AM)...   Nov 14 2007, 06:44 AM
|- - Fsgdjv   QUOTE (Animosity @ Nov 14 2007, 06:27 AM)...   Nov 14 2007, 08:00 AM
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- - The Uncreator   QUOTE (bad_tel @ Nov 13 2007, 08:49 PM) 1...   Nov 14 2007, 07:59 AM
- - The Uncreator   I saw a few other posts saying the real problem is...   Nov 14 2007, 08:07 AM
|- - blindwillie   QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Nov 14 2007, 08:07...   Nov 14 2007, 04:40 PM
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- - jeff   I just spent 1/2 hour reading this thread. Damn, ...   Nov 14 2007, 08:11 AM
- - Fsgdjv   fast answer to the uncreator: I think the one who ...   Nov 14 2007, 08:13 AM
- - The Uncreator   I can see that being a point, but hell, computers ...   Nov 14 2007, 08:14 AM
- - Fsgdjv   Agreed, but it was what I could think of.   Nov 14 2007, 08:17 AM
- - The Uncreator   Anyone else got any theories?   Nov 14 2007, 08:22 AM
|- - FretDancer69   QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Nov 14 2007, 01:22...   Nov 14 2007, 08:32 AM
||- - ActiveX   QUOTE (FretDancer69 @ Nov 13 2007, 11:32 ...   Nov 14 2007, 08:59 AM
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|- - MickeM   QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Nov 14 2007, 08:22...   Nov 14 2007, 03:41 PM
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- - steve25   Here's a thought. Is it ok to download music t...   Nov 14 2007, 08:27 AM
- - Zephyr   Hmm... my opinion on downloading free music is tha...   Nov 14 2007, 08:32 AM
- - swingline   Sorry about being so aggressive before I'm jus...   Nov 14 2007, 08:44 AM
- - tonymiro   Thanks Swingline, the topic seems to be 'close...   Nov 14 2007, 08:53 AM
- - jeff   I think the guys at Reaper have a good thing going...   Nov 14 2007, 09:07 AM
|- - fkalich   QUOTE (jeff @ Nov 14 2007, 02:07 AM) I do...   Nov 14 2007, 09:27 AM
|- - jeff   QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 14 2007, 03:27 AM) A...   Nov 14 2007, 08:07 PM
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- - The Uncreator   QUOTE (FretDancer69 @ Nov 13 2007, 11:32 ...   Nov 14 2007, 09:57 AM
- - Layzer   I'm not too knowledgeable in this area, that s...   Nov 14 2007, 04:20 PM
- - Vinicitur   QUOTE (blindwillie @ Nov 14 2007, 11:40 A...   Nov 14 2007, 04:55 PM
- - blindwillie   And I do agree with MickeM. Revolt! It isn...   Nov 14 2007, 06:36 PM
|- - MickeM   QUOTE (blindwillie @ Nov 14 2007, 06:36 P...   Nov 15 2007, 12:51 AM
|- - blindwillie   QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 15 2007, 12:51 AM) I ...   Nov 15 2007, 01:45 AM
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- - blindwillie   Here is a twist on piracy. Not software but it rel...   Nov 14 2007, 10:38 PM
- - tonymiro   Just to clarify some points in my OP and some of t...   Nov 15 2007, 12:35 AM
|- - blindwillie   QUOTE (tonymiro @ Nov 15 2007, 12:35 AM) ...   Nov 15 2007, 02:18 AM
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- - tonymiro   I do that all the time MickeM   Nov 15 2007, 12:54 AM
|- - MickeM   QUOTE (tonymiro @ Nov 15 2007, 12:54 AM) ...   Nov 15 2007, 02:10 AM
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- - Pavel   5 pages of discussion, already?? WOW!!   Nov 15 2007, 01:36 AM
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