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GMC Forum _ GEAR & PRODUCTION _ Cheap Amp For Metalcore? (practice + Small Gigs)

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 6 2010, 07:42 PM

Well its time for me, to stop using my Pod as an amp and buy myself something (its too much of hassle to carry it around week after week). Problem is, I am on really short budget. On the other hand, I dont really need stack or even valvestate.. I just want it to have a nice distorted tone.

Are there any options?

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jan 6 2010, 08:06 PM

There is the perfect, I would say the one and only option coming out this month!

The Peavey 6505 112 60 Watt combo!!!

http://www.thomann.de/de/peavey_6505_112_combo.htm

The 6505 (previously 5150) is a metal weapon and nearly every Metal(core) band uses them! The distorted tone is just Insane!
This amp will now be available as a really cheap (considering the value for money) 1x12 combo with 60 watts, which is a bit much for homeuse but perfect for small gigs and rehearsals!

It's a bit over your budget but considering how good this offer is, I would rather sell my organs then settle for a cheaper Bugera or Line 6 if I was in your position.

Did I mention that I will buy one if I find someone to sell my liver to?!? (I am broke -.-)

Posted by: shredmaster1393 Jan 6 2010, 08:50 PM

yea i would say try out some peavey's, i really like them. Maybe the Peavy vypyr 30, 75 or 100. but thats just my preference!!!

peavy vypyr 30

http://www.samash.com/p/VYPYR30%20Modeling%20Guitar%20Combo%20Amp_-49955403

peavey vypyr 75

http://www.samash.com/p/VYPYR%2075%20Modeling%20Guitar%20Combo%20Amp_-49955402

peavey vypyr 100

http://www.samash.com/p/VYPYR%20100%20Modeling%20Guitar%20Combo%20Amp_-49955401

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 6 2010, 08:57 PM

Hmm do you think that 30W will be enough to outscream drummer and other band members (another guiter, bass and vocals)? Note that we play loud music biggrin.gif

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jan 6 2010, 09:02 PM

Maybe 30 watt tube in a Blues or Jazz Band but certainly not 30 watt solid state in a Metal band tongue.gif

You will need atleast 50 watt tube amp or 100 watt solid state power to compete with a loud metal drummer

Also tube distortion>Digital Modeling

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 6 2010, 09:08 PM

yeah, sure I know, that tube distortion is better, but I cant really choose... we are gonna hit the stage in two months so I'll try to fundraise as much money as possible but still... the vypyr looks like solid solution - at least for now smile.gif

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 6 2010, 09:17 PM

What's your budget Jakub ??

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jan 6 2010, 09:22 PM

The viper is the cheaper solution for now but you won't be happy with a digital modeling combo for too long, especially not if you are going to gig soon and you are going down in the mix between all the others instruments (not to mention other guitarists and their halfstacks^^).

If you spend some more money on the 6505 combo or a similiar tube combo you get an amp that will satisfy you for years as it sounds really good, it will give you a professional tone for the gigs and future recordings. You will propably not even need a halfstack later because this combo is basicly a smaller 6505 head that can be used with a 4x12 cab!

Better to scrape together some more money now then getting frustrated over an amp that you will propably sell anyway if you continue to play concerts!

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 6 2010, 09:39 PM

To Ivan:

As I said around 500$, but really, the less the easier it will be for me smile.gif

QUOTE (ZakkWylde @ Jan 6 2010, 09:22 PM) *
The viper is the cheaper solution for now but you won't be happy with a digital modeling combo for too long, especially not if you are going to gig soon and you are going down in the mix between all the others instruments (not to mention other guitarists and their halfstacks^^).

If you spend some more money on the 6505 combo or a similiar tube combo you get an amp that will satisfy you for years as it sounds really good, it will give you a professional tone for the gigs and future recordings. You will propably not even need a halfstack later because this combo is basicly a smaller 6505 head that can be used with a 4x12 cab!

Better to scrape together some more money now then getting frustrated over an amp that you will propably sell anyway if you continue to play concerts!



Well this other guitarist has ENGL Blackmoore signature with Marshall 4x12 biggrin.gif Well I might sell my pod... that would give me enough funds for that 6505.. but will leave me with crappy behringer 10W amp :-/

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jan 6 2010, 09:49 PM

Here is what would happen when you play a modeling combo and the other guitarist has a Engl Stack:



tongue.gif tongue.gif

You might aswell stay with your pod into the pa because honestly, the viper is nothing more than a pod with a speaker!


With a 60 watt tube combo you can easily compete with a Engl stack. Ofcourse the 4x12 will have a fuller and bigger sound but 60 watt tube are almost 90% as loud as 100 watts so the loudness is not the problem (because nobody cranks 100 watt^^)

Also the peavey sounds middier compared to the more scooped sounding Engl so you will cut through the mix very well!


You are 19 years old, can't you ask your parents to give you a little credit that you will pay off later?

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 6 2010, 10:03 PM

Well this is what I am gonna most probably do... try to ask my parents, if nothing, Ill try to find some part time job and if nothing, Ill try to sell my Pod... but it will hurt :-/ biggrin.gif

Posted by: MickeM Jan 6 2010, 10:07 PM

The Peavey sounds like a good suggestion. Just wanted to add another suggestion more based on your budget issue.

A solid state amp where you don't have to worry about maintenance costs. I'm more of a tube purist myself but anyway, how about the new Line6 Spider IV combo?

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 6 2010, 10:13 PM

Yeah I was considering some line 6 too.. I play two and half years, so I dont feel the need to have tube amp right now... but maybe it would be better... I will check that Spider IV wink.gif

Well theoretically speaking, I could sell my pod, buy 120W Line 6 Spider IV (120w should be enough I guess...) and Ill have money left for some decent home practice amp smile.gif

Posted by: audiopaal Jan 6 2010, 11:08 PM

I have to agree with Zakk here smile.gif
The 6505 is a great amp with a solid metal tone,
and you'll be able to compete with the Engl and a loud drummer smile.gif

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 6 2010, 11:14 PM

Sorry, I didn't see the budget limit in the topic title. I can recommend Randall RG75DG3. I know that you may feel that the brand is not that famous, but I've recorded my first album on that amp, it's a hybrid and it has awesome tones. Crank it, and you will get a great roar, it has plenty of drive. Even the smaller 50W version is great, but this one is really one of the best metal amps I've heard in that price range.

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 6 2010, 11:19 PM

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Jan 6 2010, 11:14 PM) *
Sorry, I didn't see the budget limit in the topic title. I can recommend Randall RG75DG3. I know that you may feel that the brand is not that famous, but I've recorded my first album on that amp, it's a hybrid and it has awesome tones. Crank it, and you will get a great roar, it has plenty of drive. Even the smaller 50W version is great, but this one is really one of the best metal amps I've heard in that price range.



Duuuuude Randall? Man Dimebag Darrel played those beasts! Kirk Hammet has signature Randall smile.gif Ill check that one out! Btw. hybrid is more like tube or more like valvestate? I know they have one or two tubes in preamp, but I don really know, how much does that matter and how much does it actually do...

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 6 2010, 11:24 PM

QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Jan 6 2010, 11:19 PM) *
Duuuuude Randall? Man Dimebag Darrel played those beasts! Kirk Hammet has signature Randall smile.gif Ill check that one out! Btw. hybrid is more like tube or more like valvestate? I know they have one or two tubes in preamp, but I don really know, how much does that matter and how much does it actually do...


Randall yeah, many great players used it, Dimebag being on of the most famous. It's a great brand, metal oriented, but the amp can pull out great clean sounds.

Hybrid means it has one 12AX7 tube in preamp section. So very much like valvestate. Valvestate is term used by Marshall, Randall calls it ValveDynamics (VD).

In general it is better for the amp to have 2-3 preamp tubes if the amp has two channels for example, this way less diode clippin is being used and more of the signal is being clipped with the tubes. But usually they just put one tube that is being used for all channels cause they want to cut down the price probably.
More tubes is not always better, but in a good tube 100W amp you need at least 2 preamp (or even 1 - not sure?) tubes and 4 power tubes, and transformers to support them with current, but in general all components in the circuit affect the tone, poor connections, cheap caps, transistors, clipping diode circuits, transformers, tubes, FX loops, reverbs etc.. everything affects the signal coming through. In general you don't have to worry about it, usually hybrid amps have 1 preamp tube and that's it. It's good to have a hybrid amp over solid state, the tone is indeed a bit warmer, if you don't crank it. When you crank it, solid state power amp section will start to buzz, how much, it depends on the particular model and brand, and other mentioned factors in the box itself. Tube amps are better in terms of response and creating a softer and more pleasant sound, but they cost more, and it's better to get a good hybrid amp then a bad tube amp for the same money.

Posted by: shredmaster1393 Jan 6 2010, 11:40 PM

QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Jan 6 2010, 11:57 AM) *
Hmm do you think that 30W will be enough to outscream drummer and other band members (another guiter, bass and vocals)? Note that we play loud music biggrin.gif


i think it will because i have a 15 watt and i have to keep volume on level 1 and if i put it on 10, i am pretty sure i could break a window or somethin. and thats just the 15 watt viper, it would be alot louder if i had the 30 or 75 watt viper.

Posted by: Tomas Santa Clara Jan 7 2010, 12:51 AM

doesnt 500$ buy a PEAVEY VK212???

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 7 2010, 01:07 AM

QUOTE (shredmaster1393 @ Jan 6 2010, 11:40 PM) *
i think it will because i have a 15 watt and i have to keep volume on level 1 and if i put it on 10, i am pretty sure i could break a window or somethin. and thats just the 15 watt viper, it would be alot louder if i had the 30 or 75 watt viper.


30W amp is not enough to compete in the club, I've gigged with 25W all tubber once in a small club, and it worked miced, but I could barely hear myself, and the amp didn't have any headroom, it was cranked.

On the other hand, I have a wish to play with one of these on the gig just to see if it works, mic it and let it in monitors biggrin.gif


Posted by: Daniel Realpe Jan 7 2010, 04:09 PM

QUOTE (ZakkWylde @ Jan 6 2010, 09:49 PM) *



hhahahah biggrin.gif

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jan 7 2010, 08:09 PM

QUOTE (shredmaster1393 @ Jan 6 2010, 11:40 PM) *
i think it will because i have a 15 watt and i have to keep volume on level 1 and if i put it on 10, i am pretty sure i could break a window or somethin. and thats just the 15 watt viper, it would be alot louder if i had the 30 or 75 watt viper.


No it will certainly not!
No offense but volume can't be set into relation. For example your 15 watts are way to loud cranked in your home but that is in relation to the loudness level you have at home: None.

While 15 watt seem to be too loud at home, next to a drummer they are barely hearable! Now add another guitar, bass and a singer - maybe an audiance of a couple of hundred people and you wont be able to tell if you amp is on or not!
Also Solid State Amps of the same wattage are not as loud as Tube amps, dunno why, maybe the tube amps just cut better and feel louder but not really are...

Posted by: MickeM Jan 7 2010, 08:34 PM

QUOTE (ZakkWylde @ Jan 7 2010, 08:09 PM) *
Also Solid State Amps of the same wattage are not as loud as Tube amps, dunno why, maybe the tube amps just cut better and feel louder but not really are...

watts is just a measure so 100 watts from a solid state or tube amp is infact the same.
The sound wave is built up differently between the two so the tube sound is picked up by the ear in another way than the solid state sound.
Interpreted as louder though it's not. I suppose the dynamic and harmonic tones makes the sound wider and fuller hence picked up as louder as far as I can understand.

One other reason that I never seen debated but I can think if is that the cranked 100 watt solid state puts out 100 watt through the speakers while a cranked and distorted tube amp puts out something like a maximum of 150-180 watts or so. AB testing the two with the same volume dialed in could be misleading. Needs a measuring instrument to determine the output for a fair comparance. Still ith the instrument measuring an equal output the tube amp would be understood as louder by ones ear.
A win win situation for the tube amp. smile.gif


And true. 30 watts is too little. I've played a 30 watter in a ~30 sqm room which was alright. Also in a 100 sqm room where it was way too weak, + the single 12" speaker didn't spread the sound well at all.
50 w tube amp (concidering it'll put out more wattage than the stamped lable says) or a 100 watt SS I guess would be fine.

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jan 7 2010, 09:18 PM

QUOTE (MickeM @ Jan 7 2010, 08:34 PM) *
50 w tube amp (concidering it'll put out more wattage than the stamped lable says) or a 100 watt SS I guess would be fine.


Pretty much what I said 20 posts ago! It feels good to have you oppinion supported by a pro biggrin.gif

Randall will work in the Metal Ballpark for sure although I haven't played that model - the bigger heads sure do!
I suggested the 6505 because I just love the amp for Metal (I am going to buy the combo as soon as it is released) and so many great Metal and Metalcore bands get their sound from the Peavey 5150/6505 amps:

Arch Enemy
Killswitch Engage
Machine Head
In Flames
Bullet For My Vallentine
Trivium
Gojira
Soulfly
Chimaira
August Burns Red

And many more!

Posted by: superize Jan 7 2010, 09:43 PM

Reading this i am really considering buying a 6505 combo

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jan 7 2010, 10:23 PM

QUOTE (superize @ Jan 7 2010, 09:43 PM) *
Reading this i am really considering buying a 6505 combo


I am going to buy one for home use and to have a portable amp for jam sessions as it really is a pain in the lower back to move my halfstack arround for just a quick jam with a drummer or so...

60 Watt tube is really loud though! It is too loud for using it at home when you have picky neighbours, even on volume one!
I will use it only on daytime and switch to guitar-rig and headphones for the evenings...

Posted by: audiopaal Jan 7 2010, 10:30 PM

QUOTE (superize @ Jan 7 2010, 09:43 PM) *
Reading this i am really considering buying a 6505 combo

Me too... If they make a 5 watter for home recording laugh.gif

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 7 2010, 10:54 PM

QUOTE (MickeM @ Jan 7 2010, 08:34 PM) *
watts is just a measure so 100 watts from a solid state or tube amp is infact the same.
The sound wave is built up differently between the two so the tube sound is picked up by the ear in another way than the solid state sound.
Interpreted as louder though it's not. I suppose the dynamic and harmonic tones makes the sound wider and fuller hence picked up as louder as far as I can understand.

One other reason that I never seen debated but I can think if is that the cranked 100 watt solid state puts out 100 watt through the speakers while a cranked and distorted tube amp puts out something like a maximum of 150-180 watts or so. AB testing the two with the same volume dialed in could be misleading. Needs a measuring instrument to determine the output for a fair comparance. Still ith the instrument measuring an equal output the tube amp would be understood as louder by ones ear.
A win win situation for the tube amp. smile.gif


And true. 30 watts is too little. I've played a 30 watter in a ~30 sqm room which was alright. Also in a 100 sqm room where it was way too weak, + the single 12" speaker didn't spread the sound well at all.
50 w tube amp (concidering it'll put out more wattage than the stamped lable says) or a 100 watt SS I guess would be fine.

True. Tube amp is not louder than SS one (if we presume that the cabinet used for both is the same). It just produces more pleasant harmonic overtones so it sounds better on high volumes, thus allowing the players to crank it and still sound good. SS amp would be just as loud, but nobody wants to use it cranked, this is the main reason it's "less loud". So, some headroom is needed on the SS one, I would agree 100% with the 50W tube/100W SS statement, it's a good comparison.


Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 8 2010, 01:10 AM

Well... the 6505 looks like very decent choice... I might even wait for a while and go right for it, but the problem is, it costs twice the price in Czech Republic (neighbouring country..... what the hell???)

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jan 8 2010, 01:19 AM

QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Jan 8 2010, 01:10 AM) *
Well... the 6505 looks like very decent choice... I might even wait for a while and go right for it, but the problem is, it costs twice the price in Czech Republic (neighbouring country..... what the hell???)


Make sure you are looking at the 1x12 Combo! There is also a 2x12 combo which has 120watt and costs 1100 Euros!

I am pretty sure Thomann ships to Czech Republic!
Also there are no taxes or customs within Europe, why not take a trip over the border and just buy it in Germany and drive right back?

EDIT:

Just checked, Thomann ships to the Chzech Republik, shipping is 15 Euros!

http://www.thomann.de/de/peavey_6505_112_combo.htm

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 9 2010, 05:19 PM

If you can wait for a while to get a hold of the 6505, I also advise this, because it's a great tube metal amp. I haven't tested the combo, I only played 6505+ head into JSX cab, and that indeed grinds.

Posted by: MickeM Jan 9 2010, 05:55 PM

Throwing in another amp for you to concider, preamp tube in it, Randall RG200 G3 Plus. Listend to a few sound clips and it sounds pretty metal core to me cool.gif I was a little bit surprised over how mean-good it sounds, the sound clips I mean.

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 10 2010, 01:22 AM

Well that Randall is even more expensive than that peavey and its way over my budget biggrin.gif

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 10 2010, 01:25 AM

I agree with Micke, although the 200W version is a 212 combo, which means it is a bit heavier, so it may be a bit of a transporting problem. It will give away more fuller range than 112 combo on the other hand.

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