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GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ Does Technique Limit Expression?

Posted by: lcsdds Nov 30 2008, 03:06 PM

What do you guys think about this? I know of a few artists that seem limited when it comes to certain techniques and it seems that they are still able to express themselves quite well. There are quite a few instructors on this board who seem to have limitless technical ablilities and it seems like they use it to really enhance their playing. What do you guys for instance think of the following players and their technical abilities:

Joe Satriani- Probably my favorite instrumentalist to listen to but I have never heard him do any sort of alternate picking or sweep picked arpeggios like most of us think of when we think of those techniques. Satch is probably the reason my legato/tapping is so far ahead of my alternate picking, LOL!!

Alan Holdsworth- Not super familiar with his playing but from what I have seen/heard it is all legato. Does anybody more familiar with his playing know if he uses alternate picking at all?

Bret Garsed- Same as Alan Holdsworth, never heard/seen any alternate picking runs in his playing.

Frank Gambale- I remember Emir saying that Frank is a true master of his instrument. Here is a guy that only economy picks from what I can gather from his playing. He has a good legato technique as well. One of the biggest knocks on economy picking that I have seen is that you have to "plan" out your licks more than if you alternate pick. This "technical deficiency" doesn't seem to have stopped his progress though.

All of these players don't seem to have problems expressing themselves but they all seem to be "technically limited" in some respects. What do you guys think?

Monte



Posted by: RandomVictim Nov 30 2008, 03:32 PM

Also alot of the great blues musicians lack many technical skills, but they still poor their heart out in their playing

Posted by: berko Nov 30 2008, 03:48 PM

If I get you right: what you mean under technical playing is fast (and strict) alternate picking and sweeping. Or fast playing altogether.

According to this, Satch does use some great alternate picking runs and really fast sweeps - time to time only. In his G3 Tokyo concert my eyes popped out when he did two sweeping arpeggios so FAST.

The others aren't those shreddy players who pick loads of notes in a song of their own. This is a matter of taste. It's sometimes nice to create contrast in a song by throwing in some crazy stuff. If you listen to Petrucci's solo album (Suspended Animation), then that shows a great example of mixing wild runs with melody. It's great too when shredding a bit sensibly during impro.

Personally, learning over the edge techniques also helps/ed me to take control of every note and to learn all possibilities on the fretboard better.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 30 2008, 04:28 PM

In general I think that there is way too much emphasis put on technique at the expense of expression. All the techniques out there are tools to get your ideas across, but we become slaves to them and they obscure the meaning of the music. I'd far rather listen to some soulful but dirty blues playing than a bunch of perfectly executed 16th triplet scalar runs.

Having said that however, the true master is one that has all the technique available, but uses it sparingly when it is appropriate and doesn't grandstand with it. He should be able to make his point with 2 or 3 notes played perfectly for the song, yet be able to play those 16th triplets at 170bpm if its right for the mood he is trying to portray.

This is one reason I admire Muris - he has technique in spades but is often happy to play simpler things and concentrate on one of the hardest techniques of all - phrasing, which I would describe as the art of making stuff sound good. The right phrasing can transform a lick and a performance into something amazing and for me, it is the hardest technique of all to master, the technique of expression!

Posted by: FrankW Nov 30 2008, 05:16 PM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Nov 30 2008, 03:06 PM) *
What do you guys think about this? I know of a few artists that seem limited when it comes to certain techniques and it seems that they are still able to express themselves quite well. There are quite a few instructors on this board who seem to have limitless technical ablilities and it seems like they use it to really enhance their playing. What do you guys for instance think of the following players and their technical abilities:

Joe Satriani- Probably my favorite instrumentalist to listen to but I have never heard him do any sort of alternate picking or sweep picked arpeggios like most of us think of when we think of those techniques. Satch is probably the reason my legato/tapping is so far ahead of my alternate picking, LOL!!

Alan Holdsworth- Not super familiar with his playing but from what I have seen/heard it is all legato. Does anybody more familiar with his playing know if he uses alternate picking at all?

Bret Garsed- Same as Alan Holdsworth, never heard/seen any alternate picking runs in his playing.

Frank Gambale- I remember Emir saying that Frank is a true master of his instrument. Here is a guy that only economy picks from what I can gather from his playing. He has a good legato technique as well. One of the biggest knocks on economy picking that I have seen is that you have to "plan" out your licks more than if you alternate pick. This "technical deficiency" doesn't seem to have stopped his progress though.

All of these players don't seem to have problems expressing themselves but they all seem to be "technically limited" in some respects. What do you guys think?

Monte


Interesting. I think what these players have done is maximize their particular playing styles within the confines of their limitations.
Satch may not be able to speed pick like Petrucci, but his lick vocabulary is virtually limitless.

Holdsworth has monster legato, and an extremely advanced playing style, like no other.

Brett can and does not only speed pick, but hybrid picks many of his melodic passages. It's the only way to play some of his cool lines.

And, Gambale is the sweep master. I do think that his economy picking style is so developed that he can play that way without concious effort.

The most important element of each of these players is their ability to be extremely musical, rather than just technically adept. That's what makes these guys stand out. smile.gif

Posted by: tommyboy Nov 30 2008, 05:24 PM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 30 2008, 09:28 AM) *
In general I think that there is way too much emphasis put on technique at the expense of expression. All the techniques out there are tools to get your ideas across, but we become slaves to them and they obscure the meaning of the music. I'd far rather listen to some soulful but dirty blues playing than a bunch of perfectly executed 16th triplet scalar runs.

Having said that however, the true master is one that has all the technique available, but uses it sparingly when it is appropriate and doesn't grandstand with it. He should be able to make his point with 2 or 3 notes played perfectly for the song, yet be able to play those 16th triplets at 170bpm if its right for the mood he is trying to portray.

This is one reason I admire Muris - he has technique in spades but is often happy to play simpler things and concentrate on one of the hardest techniques of all - phrasing, which I would describe as the art of making stuff sound good. The right phrasing can transform a lick and a performance into something amazing and for me, it is the hardest technique of all to master, the technique of expression!


Very eloquently put. smile.gif I agree with every word you wrote.

Nice Job

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Nov 30 2008, 06:25 PM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Nov 30 2008, 03:06 PM) *
All of these players don't seem to have problems expressing themselves but they all seem to be "technically limited" in some respects. What do you guys think?

Monte


They are not technically limited, they are masters of the instrument. They can play whatever they want flawlessly, and this enables them to forget about the technique and just express themselves on the instrument.

Posted by: Jose Mena Nov 30 2008, 06:32 PM

To me Frank Gambale's amazing economy picking technique requires as much development as alternate, maybe even more to make it sound like he does.

Satriani, all legato, but has some legato runs that require excellent left hand technique.

Allan Holdsworth, this guy's playing is unmatchable he seems to have 6 fingers, total instrument domination, you are probably right he is mostly legato, but my god, what a technique.

Garsed, all legato, but incredible phrasing, lots of expression in his playing.

I like to practice all techniques, but I am better at one more than the others. I guess you are concerned that you should master all to have different sounds and have more dynamics, the players mentioned above to me have lots of expression in their playing and I don't believe that not being alternate pickers limits them

Posted by: Oxac Nov 30 2008, 06:35 PM

As far as I know Allan Holdsworth likes the sound of his technique the best. Many of us classify legato as hammer ons and pull offs, which is a very essential part in allans technique. However legato is not the same as hammer on and pull offs. It's possible to sweep legato and it's possible to ap legato. It's possible to hammer on staccato etc. I think that sometimes allans hammer ons and pull offs sounds like they're picked. Of course, he's limited as far as it comes to metal riffing probably... but why would he need that? Isn't he a true master if he can play exactly what he wants but didn't bother to learn the stuff he doesn't want to play?

Posted by: kjutte Nov 30 2008, 10:49 PM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Nov 30 2008, 03:06 PM) *
What do you guys think about this? I know of a few artists that seem limited when it comes to certain techniques and it seems that they are still able to express themselves quite well. There are quite a few instructors on this board who seem to have limitless technical ablilities and it seems like they use it to really enhance their playing. What do you guys for instance think of the following players and their technical abilities:

Joe Satriani- Probably my favorite instrumentalist to listen to but I have never heard him do any sort of alternate picking or sweep picked arpeggios like most of us think of when we think of those techniques. Satch is probably the reason my legato/tapping is so far ahead of my alternate picking, LOL!!

Alan Holdsworth- Not super familiar with his playing but from what I have seen/heard it is all legato. Does anybody more familiar with his playing know if he uses alternate picking at all?

Bret Garsed- Same as Alan Holdsworth, never heard/seen any alternate picking runs in his playing.

Frank Gambale- I remember Emir saying that Frank is a true master of his instrument. Here is a guy that only economy picks from what I can gather from his playing. He has a good legato technique as well. One of the biggest knocks on economy picking that I have seen is that you have to "plan" out your licks more than if you alternate pick. This "technical deficiency" doesn't seem to have stopped his progress though.

All of these players don't seem to have problems expressing themselves but they all seem to be "technically limited" in some respects. What do you guys think?

Monte


Many answers. If your ear is telling you something you can't do, then you're limitted.

Posted by: Emir Hot Nov 30 2008, 11:28 PM

I think you can still keep a good feel with a difficult technical stuff. In order to go for that you should be 100% confident that you can execute it like any other simple thing without too much thinking. Only that way your feel won't struggle but it's a more difficult aproach for sure.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Nov 30 2008, 11:58 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Nov 30 2008, 11:28 PM) *
I think you can still keep a good feel with a difficult technical stuff. In order to go for that you should be 100% confident that you can execute it like any other simple thing without too much thinking. Only that way your feel won't struggle but it's a more difficult aproach for sure.


That is true, no matter if it is 2 or 200 notes, player should play it effortlessly in order to keep a feel. But playing effortlessly is not the only thing that is needed of course. The feel is the "feel".

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 1 2008, 01:02 AM

QUOTE (FrankW @ Nov 30 2008, 05:16 PM) *
Interesting. I think what these players have done is maximize their particular playing styles within the confines of their limitations.
Satch may not be able to speed pick like Petrucci, but his lick vocabulary is virtually limitless.

Holdsworth has monster legato, and an extremely advanced playing style, like no other.

Brett can and does not only speed pick, but hybrid picks many of his melodic passages. It's the only way to play some of his cool lines.

And, Gambale is the sweep master. I do think that his economy picking style is so developed that he can play that way without concious effort.

The most important element of each of these players is their ability to be extremely musical, rather than just technically adept. That's what makes these guys stand out. smile.gif


Frank,
I've never heard Brett speedpick. Could you point me to some of his music where he does this as I am not really familiar with his music other than what is on youtube biggrin.gif biggrin.gif He does have some really cool hybid passages from what I have seen.


QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Nov 30 2008, 06:25 PM) *
They are not technically limited, they are masters of the instrument. They can play whatever they want flawlessly, and this enables them to forget about the technique and just express themselves on the instrument.


I agree with you Ivan that they are Masters of their instruments. Do yo think that Holdsworth just never hears alternate picked lines in his head or why do you think he never uses this technique? I guess it is just a conscious decision.


QUOTE (Jose Mena @ Nov 30 2008, 06:32 PM) *
To me Frank Gambale's amazing economy picking technique requires as much development as alternate, maybe even more to make it sound like he does.

Satriani, all legato, but has some legato runs that require excellent left hand technique.

Allan Holdsworth, this guy's playing is unmatchable he seems to have 6 fingers, total instrument domination, you are probably right he is mostly legato, but my god, what a technique.

Garsed, all legato, but incredible phrasing, lots of expression in his playing.

I like to practice all techniques, but I am better at one more than the others. I guess you are concerned that you should master all to have different sounds and have more dynamics, the players mentioned above to me have lots of expression in their playing and I don't believe that not being alternate pickers limits them


Jose,
Do you think Frank's decision to use economy picking limits his vocabulary at all? Meaning that he has to "plan" his licks/lines a little more than if he was just using alternate picking?

Posted by: Gus Dec 1 2008, 01:23 AM

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Nov 30 2008, 06:25 PM) *
They are not technically limited, they are masters of the instrument. They can play whatever they want flawlessly, and this enables them to forget about the technique and just express themselves on the instrument.

I am with Ivan. These guys you mentioned can't be called limited at all.

The point is that once you reach good level you can focus in whatsoever technique is needed to express yourself the way you want. Getting from your example, it doesn't mean Joe Satriani can not speed pick. It means he prefers to use legato. If he does not do ultra fast speed picking, I am quite sure he would if he focus his practicing on that.

I think techniques are like tools in your toolbox. The more tools you have the more you are prepared for any situation. But you should not expect to use all tools in one song(style) only. There are tools you may rarely use actually.

Posted by: FrankW Dec 1 2008, 01:44 AM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 1 2008, 01:02 AM) *
Frank,
I've never heard Brett speedpick. Could you point me to some of his music where he does this as I am not really familiar with his music other than what is on youtube biggrin.gif biggrin.gif He does have some really cool hybid passages from what I have seen.


You know Monte, I can't find any video of Brett strictly speedpicking aside from his hybrid technique. His legato is so developed that it sometimes sounds like he is picking. He is a legato master, but his hybrid picking ability does lead me to believe that he can do whatever he wants with a pick. smile.gif

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 1 2008, 01:54 AM

QUOTE (FrankW @ Dec 1 2008, 01:44 AM) *
You know Monte, I can't find any video of Brett strictly speedpicking aside from his hybrid technique. His legato is so developed that it sometimes sounds like he is picking. He is a legato master, but his hybrid picking ability does lead me to believe that he can do whatever he wants with a pick. smile.gif



I believe you Frank, I only asked because I have never seen him do it either biggrin.gif biggrin.gif I brought this topic up because I have spent most of my time over the years trying to develop my legato/tapping. I think I have done pretty well but I have always felt like I am lacking as a guitarist because I don't have very good picking chops, even though it is a sound I don't particularly care for. I don't know if it is because I am lazy and don't want to spend the amount of time required to develop my picking chops or if I truly don't care enough for the sound of it in my playing to develop it. I singled out these players because I didn't think any of them really alternate pick very much in their playing, yet alot of people think they are awesome players!!! I still debate whether or not I want to develop my picking or if I should just stick to what I really like and that is legato/tapping. The debate in my head rages on laugh.gif laugh.gif Thanks for the all the responses guys. They are very helpful!!

Monte

Posted by: FrankW Dec 1 2008, 02:03 AM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 1 2008, 01:54 AM) *
I believe you Frank, I only asked because I have never seen him do it either biggrin.gif biggrin.gif I brought this topic up because I have spent most of my time over the years trying to develop my legato/tapping. I think I have done pretty well but I have always felt like I am lacking as a guitarist because I don't have very good picking chops, even though it is a sound I don't particularly care for. I don't know if it is because I am lazy and don't want to spend the amount of time required to develop my picking chops or if I truly don't care enough for the sound of it in my playing to develop it. I singled out these players because I didn't think any of them really alternate pick very much in their playing, yet alot of people think they are awesome players!!! I still debate whether or not I want to develop my picking or if I should just stick to what I really like and that is legato/tapping. The debate in my head rages on laugh.gif laugh.gif Thanks for the all the responses guys. They are very helpful!!

Monte


I hear you, man. If I were you I wouldn't even bother debating the issue. I would continue what I was doing, but I would work on picking also, just to add another technique to your arsenal. It sounds like your left hand is already pretty developed, so you have more than half the problem solved. Paul Gilbert talks about most problems speed pickers have as being the fretting hand keeping up. I know that's part of my problem. I'll bet you learn to like speed picking over time, once you develope the technique. Just my opinion... smile.gif

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Dec 1 2008, 02:04 AM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Nov 30 2008, 07:02 PM) *
I agree with you Ivan that they are Masters of their instruments. Do yo think that Holdsworth just never hears alternate picked lines in his head or why do you think he never uses this technique? I guess it is just a conscious decision.


Holdsworth is an interestng example - he has very deliberately set out to get the sound he has, not least because he never liked the sound of guitar, the story is that he always wanted to be a trumpeter (or so I heard, maybe I got the instrument wrong!). Holdsworth has a vision of the sound he wants to make and bends all of his technique to get there - that is a good lesson to learn, he is workimg from the sound back, not from the technique forward.

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 1 2008, 02:11 AM

QUOTE (FrankW @ Dec 1 2008, 02:03 AM) *
I hear you, man. If I were you I wouldn't even bother debating the issue. I would continue what I was doing, but I would work on picking also, just to add another technique to your arsenal. It sounds like your left hand is already pretty developed, so you have more than half the problem solved. Paul Gilbert talks about most problems speed pickers have as being the fretting hand keeping up. I know that's part of my problem. I'll bet you learn to like speed picking over time, once you develope the technique. Just my opinion... smile.gif



I think you are right too Frank. I am going to start working on my picking even if I don't use it that much. See, I don't know if I don't use it because I CAN'T do it or I really don't want to do it. Maybe when I get somewhat proficient with it I will use it. Time will tell. Again, that is why I brought up these specific players. Do they focus on legato because they CAN"T alternate pick so they use what tools they do have or do they choose not to alternate pick because they don't like the sound of it and choose not to use it in their playing? I think I am just going to try and develop my picking and see where it goes laugh.gif laugh.gif

Monte

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Dec 1 2008, 02:11 AM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 1 2008, 01:02 AM) *
I agree with you Ivan that they are Masters of their instruments. Do yo think that Holdsworth just never hears alternate picked lines in his head or why do you think he never uses this technique? I guess it is just a conscious decision.


Well I certainly don't know what he hears in his head mate, let alone what alternate picked lines sound for him anyway. I don't even know if I ever think about alternate picking runs in that way. Technique is just something that doesn't cross my mind a lot when playing. The reason Allan doesn't uses alternate is unknown to me, it could be anything really. Maybe he can alternate pick but he doesn't or maybe he didn't practiced and played with this technique a lot, so he doesn't use it while playing, you know what I mean?
About a conscious decision, my guess is that he doesn't really think what techniques he will use, he just use whatever he finds most suitable to expresses himself.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Dec 1 2008, 02:12 AM

Allan Holdsworth and Frank Gambale are gods lol. They are inhuman biggrin.gif

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 1 2008, 02:23 AM

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Dec 1 2008, 02:11 AM) *
Well I certainly don't know what he hears in his head mate, let alone what alternate picked lines sound for him anyway. I don't even know if I ever think about alternate picking runs in that way. Technique is just something that doesn't cross my mind a lot when playing. The reason Allan doesn't uses alternate is unknown to me, it could be anything really. Maybe he can alternate pick but he doesn't or maybe he didn't practiced and played with this technique a lot, so he doesn't use it while playing, you know what I mean?
About a conscious decision, my guess is that he doesn't really think what techniques he will use, he just use whatever he finds most suitable to expresses himself.


Thanks for the response Ivan!! When I am improvising on my own I never alternate pick, but I think it is because I can't not because I don't want to. I think you are right that these players haven't focused on picking techniques much but I don't know. When I see someone like Muris, Emir or Jose who can seemingly do any technique it is easy for me to believe that they truly chose to alternate pick a line over playing it legato because they wanted the sound of one over the other. But when I see players like Holdsworth, Satch or Garsed I wonder if they play the way they do because they are limited in what techniques they can do or if they truly just want to play everything legato. Interesting debate anyways. laugh.gif laugh.gif

Monte

Posted by: FrankW Dec 1 2008, 02:28 AM

I think that when you consider the playing level of players like Holdsworth and Garsed, it's just a matter of choice. I think they prefer the smoother legato sound as it suits their guitar style. If they wanted to use other techniques, I'm sure they could if it suited them.
Does that mean that right at this moment they could play staccato as well as they play legato? I couldn't say. But considering the genius of their level of playing, I don't think it would take too long to develope any technique they so desired.
I've seen John Petrucci demonstrate incredible legato technique, even though he obviously prefers the more staccato effect.
I'd be happy being good at one technique, whatever it is. smile.gif

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 1 2008, 02:41 AM

QUOTE (FrankW @ Dec 1 2008, 02:28 AM) *
.
I'd be happy being good at one technique, whatever it is. smile.gif



Amen to that!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

One thing that got me thinking about this topic was an interview I read with Greg Howe. He said that his "hammer-on from nowhere" technique came about because he didn't want to spend the time required to develop his alternate picking technique so he use this technique as an alternative. He said he would love to alternate pick like Paul Gilbert but didn't want to spend the time Paul Gilbert spent to develop it. It seems to me that anybody who can alternate pick well spent TONS of time to develop it.

Here is a link to the article.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-31897531_ITM


Monte

Posted by: FrankW Dec 1 2008, 02:52 AM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 1 2008, 02:41 AM) *
Amen to that!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

One thing that got me thinking about this topic was an interview I read with Greg Howe. He said that his "hammer-on from nowhere" technique came about because he didn't want to spend the time required to develop his alternate picking technique so he use this technique as an alternative. He said he would love to alternate pick like Paul Gilbert but didn't want to spend the time Paul Gilbert spent to develop it. It seems to me that anybody who can alternate pick well spent TONS of time to develop it.

Here is a link to the article.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-31897531_ITM


Monte


I read the same article. Greg Howe is another monster! If you've heard any of his older stuff, you've heard a developed picking hand for sure. I do notice that his style has evolved to a more legato/finger tapping one interspersed with monster picking. His style has progressed from neo-classical and blues-based shred to fusion. I love that guy. I wonder how many guitar players can alternate pick like Paul Gilbert. All these monsters have their individual strengths. They're all great. smile.gif

Posted by: Resurrection Dec 1 2008, 08:36 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Dec 1 2008, 01:04 AM) *
Holdsworth is an interestng example - he has very deliberately set out to get the sound he has, not least because he never liked the sound of guitar, the story is that he always wanted to be a trumpeter (or so I heard, maybe I got the instrument wrong!). Holdsworth has a vision of the sound he wants to make and bends all of his technique to get there - that is a good lesson to learn, he is workimg from the sound back, not from the technique forward.


When I heard the story, it was the saxophone that Holdsworth was trying to emulate - not that it changes the point that was being made. In addition to crazy legato, he also gets involved in the creative use of techniques like volume swells to change the usual attack that you hear on a picked string. Such an innovative guy!

Posted by: Noangels Dec 1 2008, 09:10 AM

Brett Garsed normaly picks the 1st two notes on any 3 note per string(or 4!)line he plays,its a system that works very well for him.His use of fingers on pick hand for runs and arps works for him too,but I prefer the tone of the pick

Bretts a very dynamic player as he can bring the pick into the licks unlike Holdsworth who is godly in his lines but lacks dynamics(imo)that other world class players have

Paul Gilbert is another monster player with dynamic playing,and chops galore-I saw his band recently playing near me and he never hit a wrong note all night!
The thing with paul is he is a very scaler player and his practise sessions over the years have shaped his sound with his 3 note per string boxes all over the neck.I love his playing to death but (imo)a Greg Howe/garsed/holdsworth fusion voice would be a great addition to his style,likeways those other players could do with his distinct playing chops in their vocab

also a side note here.A lot of great pickers out there can legato just as well.Thier left hands are already forming the shapes over the neck so they can ease off the pick any time they want and still sound great.Now the Legato players havnt got there picking hands into sync so they cant add that tone to their playing.

The new breed of players coming out today do it all as the technical bar has risen

Posted by: Muris Varajic Dec 1 2008, 11:47 AM

That's pretty interesting list of players you pulled out Monte!
All of them are top class players but somehow devoted
to only one or maybe 2 techniques in general.
But I don't think it's limitation at all,
those guys have their own sound signatures
and techniques they use most of the time
have a very important roll in that.
Now,if you're looking for technique versatile players
then those guys you mentioned are surely not one of those
but on the other hand you can recognize them very easily
cause techniques they use give them that special
and unique sound. smile.gif

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Dec 1 2008, 02:44 PM

QUOTE (Noangels @ Dec 1 2008, 12:10 AM) *
Brett Garsed normaly picks the 1st two notes on any 3 note per string(or 4!)line he plays,its a system that works very well for him.His use of fingers on pick hand for runs and arps works for him too,but I prefer the tone of the pick

Bretts a very dynamic player as he can bring the pick into the licks unlike Holdsworth who is godly in his lines but lacks dynamics(imo)that other world class players have

Paul Gilbert is another monster player with dynamic playing,and chops galore-I saw his band recently playing near me and he never hit a wrong note all night!
The thing with paul is he is a very scaler player and his practise sessions over the years have shaped his sound with his 3 note per string boxes all over the neck.I love his playing to death but (imo)a Greg Howe/garsed/holdsworth fusion voice would be a great addition to his style,likeways those other players could do with his distinct playing chops in their vocab

also a side note here.A lot of great pickers out there can legato just as well.Thier left hands are already forming the shapes over the neck so they can ease off the pick any time they want and still sound great.Now the Legato players havnt got there picking hands into sync so they cant add that tone to their playing.

The new breed of players coming out today do it all as the technical bar has risen



That is true. I mean I dont really think technique limits expression, but then again I dont really think you Need great technique to be a great musician. Regardless of some of these "Legato/Economy" Monsters, like others said they can probably still play other techniques just aswell. It really all flows back to what kind of sound you want. Agressive and Articulate? Your thinking a Paul Gilbert type sound. Which is funny because he wasnt a very good picker for awhile. Which is why you see him incorporating alot of hammer-ons and pull-offs in his speedy runs. Paul openly says that he developed his Legato technique first. Why? He wasnt a very good picker ! He says that he was pretty much practicing Alt. Picking wrong for about 8 years. He also used alot of hammer-ons and pulloffs to help achieve that fast sound he was looking for. We have to keep in mind though, hes been playing for about 30 years. To be as technically precise as he is, is a feat that isnt accomplished overnight.

And as for other players ( Howe, Holds, Garsed). There not limited. They just express based on the sounds that there looking for out of the instrument.

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 1 2008, 03:35 PM

QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Dec 1 2008, 02:44 PM) *
Paul openly says that he developed his Legato technique first. Why? He wasnt a very good picker ! He says that he was pretty much practicing Alt. Picking wrong for about 8 years.


What was he doing wrong in his alternate picking practice?

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 1 2008, 03:36 PM

It all comes down to what your personal style and taste is.
There is many versatile musicians that can play lots of styles with lots of different techniques. Guthrie Govan is one of them for example.
Now , is there any way we could compare Guthrie with Holdsworth ?
I don't think so. Totally different guys, Holdsworth is creator of rock fusion style with jazz elements in a sense and his legato technique with some "weird" harmonies is just out of this world.

Again, comes down to what you are working on. I am assuming Alan played a lot of legato and just that and it grew into his playing so much that he created his original voice in music with that technique.

Techniques should be just tools to help you express yourself. Nothing more nothing less.
Original players restrict them selves to couple of techniques and do it really well. That way it becomes easier for listener to recognize their voice in music and immediately know who they are listening to.
Of course Sound as well as Phrasing/Rhythm/Time feel plays another important role here along with melodic choices player makes.

Thanks

Posted by: Jose Mena Dec 1 2008, 03:41 PM

I guess you simply choose not to develop a certain technique because you are not interested, I guess lcdds is wondering if he should develop his alternate picking, or simply concentrate on the technique he already dominates.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Dec 1 2008, 03:45 PM

QUOTE (Jose Mena @ Dec 1 2008, 03:41 PM) *
I guess you simply choose not to develop a certain technique because you are not interested, I guess lcdds is wondering if he should develop his alternate picking, or simply concentrate on the technique he already dominates.


Developing by all means,
latter on it's easy to throw something away if you REALLY don't need it. smile.gif

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 1 2008, 03:50 PM

QUOTE (Jose Mena @ Dec 1 2008, 03:41 PM) *
I guess you simply choose not to develop a certain technique because you are not interested, I guess lcdds is wondering if he should develop his alternate picking, or simply concentrate on the technique he already dominates.


I think you are right on the money Jose!! I think I really asking myself if I don't develop my alternate picking because I don't like the sound or is it that I don't want to spend the time to do it ?


QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Dec 1 2008, 03:45 PM) *
Developing by all means,
latter on it's easy to throw something away if you REALLY don't need it. smile.gif


This is probably a good idea. I think I am going to commit to develop a decent alternate picking technique and see where it takes me. Thanks for the input everybody!!

Monte

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 1 2008, 03:52 PM

You should develop alternate but again depends until what level you want to develop it !
My opinion is you should have grasps of as many techniques as possible. In your case alternate is your spot... So I would practice until I could play 16th notes at 100 bpm for example and stop there - if I don't like the sound of that technique I would leave it aside and work to perfection legato economy harmonics whatever is the sound you are aiming for.

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 1 2008, 03:56 PM

QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Dec 1 2008, 03:52 PM) *
You should develop alternate but again depends until what level you want to develop it !
My opinion is you should have grasps of as many techniques as possible. In your case alternate is your spot... So I would practice until I could play 16th notes at 100 bpm for example and stop there - if I don't like the sound of that technique I would leave it aside and work to perfection legato economy harmonics whatever is the sound you are aiming for.



That is good advice Pedja!! I actually can do this, I guess I am wondering if I should take it to the next level or not. I think I am going to commit to develop it as much as possible this next year and see where it takes me. Thanks for the advice.

Monte

Posted by: coffeeman Dec 1 2008, 05:54 PM

Great topic Monte.

Reading all posts now I wonder a few things. All the guys you mention are true masters and what I think is most important is that they create great music in their own styles. In my case thats why I am a member of GMC , I want to create gret music, in order to do that I need to have a good and strong technique. Now reading all of your posts I wonder , should I concentrate on one techinque more tahn another. Im a beginner so I really have a long way to have a decent alternate picking, legato, sweeping, hybrif picking etc.....

I think it really depends on the spot you are at the moment , I really want to focus on fusion , I want to have a very smooth sound , but if at this moment I only concentrate les's on legato and hybrid picking , I think Im going to have an unbalanced playing in the future , another thing it would be if a this moment my techinque were very strong in all fields , and I would like to develope a smoother sound.

So my conclusion is , if you are a beginner like me , firts concentrate on developing a strong techinque , when you reach that, go for your favourite one.

After reading my post, I said a lot of things and said nothing at the same time, anyway just wanted to share my point of view.

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Dec 1 2008, 09:15 PM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 1 2008, 06:35 AM) *
What was he doing wrong in his alternate picking practice?


The way he was holding the pick, and the way he was attacking the string.

QUOTE (coffeeman @ Dec 1 2008, 08:54 AM) *
Great topic Monte.

Reading all posts now I wonder a few things. All the guys you mention are true masters and what I think is most important is that they create great music in their own styles. In my case thats why I am a member of GMC , I want to create gret music, in order to do that I need to have a good and strong technique. Now reading all of your posts I wonder , should I concentrate on one techinque more tahn another. Im a beginner so I really have a long way to have a decent alternate picking, legato, sweeping, hybrif picking etc.....

I think it really depends on the spot you are at the moment , I really want to focus on fusion , I want to have a very smooth sound , but if at this moment I only concentrate les's on legato and hybrid picking , I think Im going to have an unbalanced playing in the future , another thing it would be if a this moment my techinque were very strong in all fields , and I would like to develope a smoother sound.

So my conclusion is , if you are a beginner like me , firts concentrate on developing a strong techinque , when you reach that, go for your favourite one.

After reading my post, I said a lot of things and said nothing at the same time, anyway just wanted to share my point of view.



You actually said alot, and I enjoyed the post smile.gif

I know what you mean and I do think at a certain point Brett Garsed said " Well I have a basic foundation in alot of techniques, but I want to be able to focus on Legato for a smooth sound, and focus on Hybrid picking to add some flavor to my runs.

However if there are any 2 Techniques that are the MOST IMPORTANT Imo, It would be Bending and Vibrato.

Gary Moore can play one note, and you know its him.
That is really something amazing.

B.B King can play one quick Bending Lick,
And you know its him.

Of course that can be obtained with every other technique. But I do feel they are by far the most important.

Posted by: Lian Gerbino Dec 1 2008, 09:45 PM

QUOTE (coffeeman @ Dec 1 2008, 01:54 PM) *
Great topic Monte.

Reading all posts now I wonder a few things. All the guys you mention are true masters and what I think is most important is that they create great music in their own styles. In my case thats why I am a member of GMC , I want to create gret music, in order to do that I need to have a good and strong technique. Now reading all of your posts I wonder , should I concentrate on one techinque more tahn another. Im a beginner so I really have a long way to have a decent alternate picking, legato, sweeping, hybrif picking etc.....

I think it really depends on the spot you are at the moment , I really want to focus on fusion , I want to have a very smooth sound , but if at this moment I only concentrate les's on legato and hybrid picking , I think Im going to have an unbalanced playing in the future , another thing it would be if a this moment my techinque were very strong in all fields , and I would like to develope a smoother sound.

So my conclusion is , if you are a beginner like me , firts concentrate on developing a strong techinque , when you reach that, go for your favourite one.

After reading my post, I said a lot of things and said nothing at the same time, anyway just wanted to share my point of view.


well, I think there´re more than one way to reach that goal: create great , music/songs.
even if you are perfect on your techniques, that not ensure you can create great songs

one point of view could be: if you play many techniques in a high level you can use all your technical resources in your guitar composition. (solos-riffes) but what really give you awesome results is the song or piece you compose.
that´s what is behind Satriani, Holdsworth, even VAI.
they are not only awesome guitar players.

great thread!!!

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Dec 1 2008, 10:03 PM

QUOTE (Resurrection @ Dec 1 2008, 02:36 AM) *
When I heard the story, it was the saxophone that Holdsworth was trying to emulate - not that it changes the point that was being made. In addition to crazy legato, he also gets involved in the creative use of techniques like volume swells to change the usual attack that you hear on a picked string. Such an innovative guy!


Yes, Sax, that was it - sorry!

Posted by: Noangels Dec 2 2008, 03:15 PM

I think you have to be an all rounded player these days,and back from my early days with no teacher for many years i naturaly worked alternate,economy,sweeping and legato into my playing without devoting a lot of time to each style.There not realy that hard to do,to be honest!So theres no excuse to not adding those sounds/styles to your playing.
The hard part comes in note choice and timing

one thing I am very weak on is tapping as I havnt realy learnt a great deal in the past with that style as I kind of done the same sounding stuff with out it-but its a cool sound,another colour to use so when I get the time I will have to dig out the lessons here from the dudes who slip it into their playing from time to time with great results

Posted by: Daniel Robinson Dec 2 2008, 07:42 PM

I kind of think that limitation can sometimes be the catalyst for creating your own sound or style.

Take a player for example like Reb Beach, he has stated on numerous occasion that he had trouble with position shifting for fast ascending runs. He wanted to do them but his index finger always wanted to be anchored to the fretboard. Instead of banging his head on a wall to fix the problem he found a way around it and created his own style to do it, thats why he has a unique tapping style when soloing because he couldnt do it the other way.


Do i think that Satriani or Holdsworth or Gambale have limitations? I sure do...everyone is human there are things that are just beyond someone no matter if its mental or physical. I am not so sure that Satriani is limited in alternate picking though. If you listen to alot of his early work there is alot of alternate picking style stuff. I just think as time went by he felt that his fretboard touch was more important than his picking.

I also think that certain skills can limit you in expressing yourself. Yngwie comes to mind, i think he has been playing fast for so many years his muscle memory is addicted to it. I think he can play slow if he really really concentrates on it but his hands always want to move to lightning speed. Its like an addiction.

On the other hand you look at someone like Andy Timmons, he can do it all. But i think this stems from the fact that for years and years before his playing in a band or solo career he was a session player. When your a studio musician your skills have to run the gambit if you want to be in demand. Even to this day Andy Timmons is the most sought after and one of the highest paid studio musicians.

Or all of this could just come down to who influenced them, Eric Johnson said that he feels that someones style is the absorbtion and reguritation of all the people who are your biggest influences. You may start out playing someone note for note but after awhile it changes into something new because of your own ideas.

I can definately see this in my own playing and hear all the influences when i listen for them, but you the listener don't hear them all.

Daniel

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