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> Theory Disscusion, Feel free to ask, blues, jazz, funk, rock,...
Coram Deo
post Feb 1 2008, 08:16 PM
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Got it! Thanks man! You don't have to keep the chords in that order do you, that seems boring! And can you add more chords from the same progression or just use the 1-4-5?
And not to change topic but in the posts before mine, are you saying if I play an A minor pentatonic scale but don't start my run on the root note it is not in A minor?

This post has been edited by Coram Deo: Feb 1 2008, 08:55 PM


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 1 2008, 09:37 PM
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The progression for the blues is usually a 12 bar blues progression. It goes like this:

I - IV - I - I - IV - IV - I - I - V - IV - I - V

Every roman number represents a chord played over one bar (four beats). In blues you can put other chords off course, but classic blues progression involves only these three chords.


If you play a run from other note than A over Aminor scale, it will be a mode of that scale. A scale is an array of notes played from the first one, to the same one in a higher registry (octave higher).

I will ask you to please go and read the post about modes more carefully and see if it makes some sense, because I explained there pretty well how the modes are built.


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Coram Deo
post Feb 2 2008, 03:23 AM
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OK, I have read your post and also read Andrews posts on modes and its starting to become more clear......now I can see the importance of memorizing the fret board!! It sounds like modes are based on a seven note scale, so does that mean you cant apply them to the pentatonic scales, since they only have 5? And thanks for all your help!!


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Andrew Cockburn
post Feb 2 2008, 03:28 AM
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(Sorry to butt in Ivan!)

The modes we talk about are generaly more accurately called "Modes of the major scale" - other scales such as pentatonic have their own completely separate modes, some have names other just numbers. E.g Mode II of the pentatonic minor scale is actually Penatatonic Major, then you have Mode III, Mode IV and Mode V.


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Coram Deo
post Feb 2 2008, 04:02 AM
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Right on! I'll try to get a handle on the major modes first, but thats good to know. I don't think I have ever seen a post or lesson on the pentatonic modes, are there any? If not maybe there should be. Thanks for the response!


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 2 2008, 11:26 AM
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No problem at all Andrew, a help from an expert is always needed smile.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Feb 2 2008, 01:54 PM
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QUOTE (Milenkovic Ivan @ Feb 2 2008, 05:26 AM) *
No problem at all Andrew, a help from an expert is always needed smile.gif


Thanks Ivan you are a gentleman!

QUOTE (Coram Deo @ Feb 1 2008, 10:02 PM) *
Right on! I'll try to get a handle on the major modes first, but thats good to know. I don't think I have ever seen a post or lesson on the pentatonic modes, are there any? If not maybe there should be. Thanks for the response!


Modes of the pentatonic scale are generally less musically useful than the major modes so you don't see much of the apart from the Major Pentatonic. However, some modes of other scales are in somewhat more common use, for instance, Phrygian Dominant, which is used occasionally in neo classical and progressive is actually Mode V of the Harmonic minor scale.

There are literally hundreds of modes and scale sout there, its fun to pick one and write a song around it - an interesting way to get some inspiration smile.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 2 2008, 02:25 PM
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Ah yes, the good ol` Phrygian/Dominant scale smile.gif I call it Phrygian/Mixolydian since I learned that way out of local theory books, but it's the same thing basically. I've just done a little lesson using this one in one Macedonian folklore song, it should be out pretty soon.


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Andrew Cockburn
post Feb 2 2008, 02:40 PM
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Yes, I don't think there are set names for some of these - Dominant means minor 7th, and Mixolydian has a minor 7th as well, so it is just as good a name smile.gif

Looking forward to that lesson, should be very cool!!


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kjutte
post Sep 29 2008, 12:08 PM
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QUOTE (Moon Boots @ Jan 13 2008, 09:17 PM) *
oooooooooooohhhhhh...I seeee!!! So that's what modes are! I was actually playing different modes without even realising laugh.gif

Your post encouraged me to slow down and think about the notes of the scale, and what I was actually doing when I was playing it, that's definatly much better than just speeding through everything as fast possible and not really understanding it. And after reading what you said about modes I checked out Andrews theory lesson on modes and things are really starting to make sense now.

Thanks a lot Ivan biggrin.gif

Jason


Would like to add that even though you start on another note, you aren't really modulating until you change the root notes.

Edit: sorry for hijacking aswell tongue.gif

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kevvyg
post Jan 27 2009, 01:13 PM
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Hi Ivan,
As you're discussing modes, can I just ask something? The triads build on the Ionian mode (major scale) are MmmMMmd.
Are the chords built on the other modes altered because of the different interval patterns or are they the same, but just in a different order? (Could we have a theory section on 'Modes for Dummies'?).
Modes were a bit of a mystery to me, but they are beginning to make sense.
I couldn't get my head around the fact that all of the modes contain the same notes given one particular tonality (ie C major, D dorian, E phrygian etc). These all contain the notes CDEFGAB, so I thought, how can we know when we're playing in a certain mode, we seem to be playing in ALL modes simultaneously!!
It seems that it's the emphasis of the root note, and its relationship with the other notes in the scale, especially the 3rd and 5th, and the chords built on the scale notes - see above!
On the subject of blues, I've got my work cut out at the moment, as I've started concentrating on mastering the blues lessons in GMC, and this has made me realise blues is not just a minor pentatonic played ad-lib over a I-IV-V chord sequence. More's the pity!!
I let Ivan know in a separate thread, but if anyone's interested, check out http://12bar.de/index.php for a really helpful site about all things blues, including some note for note analysis of some classic blues songs.
I've discovered from studying the GMC blues lessons and this other site that it's a REALLY GOOD IDEA to learn the notes on the fretboard, along with the minor AND major pentatonic patterns, so that you can swap between the two at will. Anybody out there got any suggestions how to speed up the process of learning the fret notes?! I'm trying to do it a string at a time, but it's really easy just to sit there going "B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B...". Not that helpful, as I'm just reciting the alphabet!!
Any help will be greatly appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about hypnotism?


Thanks!
Kevin
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jan 29 2009, 11:52 PM
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QUOTE
As you're discussing modes, can I just ask something? The triads build on the Ionian mode (major scale) are MmmMMmd.
Are the chords built on the other modes altered because of the different interval patterns or are they the same, but just in a different order? (Could we have a theory section on 'Modes for Dummies'?).
Modes were a bit of a mystery to me, but they are beginning to make sense.

They are the same, only in a different order. Different interval patterns don't affect the chordal build in that way that they chords are changed. Chords shift along with the intervals in parallel, so they remain the same.

QUOTE
I couldn't get my head around the fact that all of the modes contain the same notes given one particular tonality (ie C major, D dorian, E phrygian etc). These all contain the notes CDEFGAB, so I thought, how can we know when we're playing in a certain mode, we seem to be playing in ALL modes simultaneously!!
It seems that it's the emphasis of the root note, and its relationship with the other notes in the scale, especially the 3rd and 5th, and the chords built on the scale notes - see above!

That's exactly right mate. The emphasis is on the strong notes of the scale - the notes that are building the harmony. Different voicings of the modes can help you create different vibes on top of the harmony, so you can mix modes in different keys to create modal solo. If you have major chord, there are three major modes that you can use, so you mix, and see where it takes you. And yes - you have to know all the modes in all the keys perfectly!
QUOTE
On the subject of blues, I've got my work cut out at the moment, as I've started concentrating on mastering the blues lessons in GMC, and this has made me realise blues is not just a minor pentatonic played ad-lib over a I-IV-V chord sequence. More's the pity!!
I let Ivan know in a separate thread, but if anyone's interested, check out http://12bar.de/index.php for a really helpful site about all things blues, including some note for note analysis of some classic blues songs.

You are on the right path mate, your conclusions are good! Blues is definitely not all about minor pentatonic scale! it's about expressing your feelings and making a positive stand about life, although life is hard. You tell that story, a blues story of yours so the audience can hear it. Blues is the feeling, the vibe, it is connected by the name with the "blues" music, but blues is something more than that. Traditional to modern blues music has changed and evolved a lot, and you can check out the blues article on wikipedia, it is great for knowing the essence of the blues music.

QUOTE
I've discovered from studying the GMC blues lessons and this other site that it's a REALLY GOOD IDEA to learn the notes on the fretboard, along with the minor AND major pentatonic patterns, so that you can swap between the two at will. Anybody out there got any suggestions how to speed up the process of learning the fret notes?! I'm trying to do it a string at a time, but it's really easy just to sit there going "B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B...". Not that helpful, as I'm just reciting the alphabet!!
Any help will be greatly appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about hypnotism?

Learning notes on the neck requires time and patience, so I suggest you spend some time learning the notes horizontally and vertically, and then try to nail the tone you want. It may take several months but it is well worth it, just like you said mate.



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GOGG
post Feb 6 2009, 04:43 PM
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Hello Ivan,

i have a question about the minor third interval in the D minor chord/ C major scale...
Why is the A on the 3rd string a minor note? Why can't it be a major note?
I will send you the link:
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/chords...rd-basics/#last

It's in the 5th video,1:51minutes.

Thanks and sorry if there was the same question earlier!

Best regards,
Goran


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 9 2009, 01:15 AM
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This A note in the D major chord is not a minor or major interval. Chord is made from:

1. Root
2. Third
3. Fifth


In D minor chord we have:

1. D
2. F
3. A

F is the third interval and it can be major or minor. A is the fifth interval and it a perfect interval that doesn't have a major or minor character.

Check out this theory article about intervals it may clarify some things a bit mate. If yo have any questions please ask.


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sted
post Feb 9 2009, 12:13 PM
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Hey Ivan!

Being a budding blues man tongue.gif im always trying to incorporate new things into my free form playing, i always seem to revert to minor pentatonic because its so familiar, what other scales etc go nicely with Blues style playing? Im ok with modes but just cant seem to get them into the playing effectively even though something like Dorian is a minor scale which should sit pretty well, it just doesnt "feel" right?

Any tips would be appreciated.
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 10 2009, 01:47 AM
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Hey man,

Dorian mode, and blues scale are the ones that you can use very effectively in the blues.

Also blues is about mixing the major and minor pentatonic scales together. Have you tried that perhaps?


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kevvyg
post Feb 16 2009, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE (sted @ Feb 9 2009, 01:13 PM) *
Hey Ivan!

Being a budding blues man tongue.gif im always trying to incorporate new things into my free form playing, i always seem to revert to minor pentatonic because its so familiar, what other scales etc go nicely with Blues style playing? Im ok with modes but just cant seem to get them into the playing effectively even though something like Dorian is a minor scale which should sit pretty well, it just doesnt "feel" right?

Any tips would be appreciated.


Hi, hope you don't mind me sticking my oar in, but a good site I can recommend (if that's ok), is one I've already mentioned to Ivan. Google 'Slowhand Blues Guitar'. It answered a lot of my questions...
You can also check out this thread that I started: Ask an Instructor>Ivan Milenkovic>Theory(Ivan)>Blues!How to sound more bluesy!!
Hope that helps! laugh.gif

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Figon
post Jun 23 2010, 04:47 PM
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Hello,any exemple for mixolydian mode over menor chord? very thanks.
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jun 27 2010, 08:10 PM
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Hello,

Mixolydian mode has major third interval, and minor chord has minor third interval. Using the specific mixolydian note array over minor chord, will shift the focus out of the mixolydian root note to 2nd, 5th and 6th degree of the scale, depending what note of these is the base for forming the minor chord.

For example take C major key:

V degree is G, mixolydian mode

minor chord in C major key: Dm, Em, Am

Play Am chord and over that mixolydian up and down and you will see that the focus will shift from G to A (2nd degree of mixo mode). It's natural that we perceive music like that, chords are guiding us to certain notes, and vice versa - certain melodies guide us to certain chords.

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: Jun 27 2010, 08:12 PM


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