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> Do You Believe In A God Or Gods?
Religion
Do you believe in a God or Gods?
Theist [ 47 ] ** [36.43%]
Agnostic [ 25 ] ** [19.38%]
Atheist [ 44 ] ** [34.11%]
Other [ 13 ] ** [10.08%]
Total Votes: 129
  
SLASH91
post Mar 21 2008, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE (Goliath @ Mar 21 2008, 03:24 PM) *
Religion in it's entirety is a way for man to come up with a back story for things he cannot readily explain. Could it be rooted in truth? Absolutely.

Evolution is not a "fact" it is an "accepted theory", there are COLOSSAL gaps in the fossil record that just cannot be explained. The evolution we know to be true would require DOZENS of intermediate steps between human and ape and magically not a single one we've been able to find and verify as authentic. In fact the only real argument for Evolution is "there's no proof for creation" which is a circular argument. Evolution can be looked at as likely, but is a far cry from definite. Creation could still be a definite, so it falls into a likely category as well.

I could just as easily say we were put on the planet by aliens and we wouldn't have proof either way.


Yep, agree %100.

Listen, Robin, I'm trying to side with Christianity in any way. I really can't stand having it forced down my throat all of the time. But still, any evidence that evolution ever occured is always being touted by scientists and every one else, while none of the evidence against it is EVER spoken about except in a Christian context. What we need is some kind of scientist who would be totally impartial, neither looking at the matter from a christian standpoint or an anti-christian standpoint. In that way we could really get a true answer, as to which is more likely.



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The Spartan
post Mar 21 2008, 10:13 PM
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Well,I'm Muslim so I'm a monothiest,I believe in one God. smile.gif


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fkalich
post Mar 21 2008, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE (Goliath @ Mar 21 2008, 03:24 PM) *

"Evolution is not a "fact" it is an "accepted theory", there are COLOSSAL gaps in the fossil record that just cannot be explained. The evolution we know to be true would require DOZENS of intermediate steps between human and ape and "

endquote


NAME ONE! There are not colossal gaps. It is very solid, only minor questions left.

I am a believer myself, but you just have to accept evolution and meld that into your beliefs. Seriously. Any of these guys trying to shoot it down are just bogus. One of those things you maybe just say, but then, if people are going to be stubborn about it, you give up. Like they are saying the sun really rises in the west, or pigs can fly. You just give up.


edit: also, there are no intermediate steps between us and apes, in fact, no steps at all. we have a common ancestor, but we are not descended from apes.


This post has been edited by fkalich: Mar 21 2008, 10:22 PM


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Goliath
post Mar 21 2008, 10:29 PM
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google works both ways friend.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/b...alcolm/evol.htm

http://www.straight-talk.net/evolution/arguments.shtml


in fact your whole website you keep pointing back to is quite clearly a website with an agenda, about half of the stuff I've read on it that "disproves" counterpoints is some fellow at his computer sitting down and really hashing out the semantics of the phrasing then proving the way it was phrased is somehow inaccurate, rarely does it address the actual issue with the argument.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

Seriously, this guy won't back up any of his claims but falls back on a lot of the "this argument shows a lack of understanding about x." or "if you rephrase this argument this way, then it's true". That's not proving anything. And his argument against the 2nd law is lacking. He pigeon holes the argument as saying "people are thinking this way but they are forgetting about the sun, duh" which doesn't even begin to address it and is pseudointellectualism at its best. Not one of those questions does he answer directly, he creates a frame for the question, shifts it then attempts to "disprove" it. Read his answer to each of those questions in the FAQ. Could I take that FAQ to task point by point like he does? Certainly, but it would require loads of research I'm not willing to do (nor have time) and lots of squabbling over semantics just like he does. I'm coping out of that one just like they cop out about REALLy addressing the fossil record. What cracks me up is he establishes this vague definition of evolution then faults the rest of the arguments "for not understanding evolution". His definition verbatim is : "Biologists define evolution as a change in the gene pool of a population over time" Bravo sir, if your goal is to prove that evolution DOES occur, then that's a fairly easy one and I don't think anyone is arguing that point. Pesticide and antibiotics losing effectiveness plainly prove that, but he skirts away from the argument of "Evolution is the explanation for how humans came to be".

His argument about transitional fossils is absurd and doesn't even begin to confront the issue and is really just approaching it as in "There are these fossils we have found with very slight differences, so there ARE transitional fossils", but what he fails to mention is the lack of any SIGNIFICANT transitional fossils, clear benchmarks along the way form one lineage to the next.

If you dig deeper and look in the "talkorigin.org" archive it pretty much admits that while they have found SOME fossils that show somewhat of a transition, then this supposes that there are LOTS of transitional fossils, they have just not been discovered yet, because it is "excruciatingly boring, soul destroying work".

Basically I submit to you cannot know evolution to be true based on the body of evidence currently available. When you boil it down you have used science to justify a secular belief that you desire to be true yet still lack the proper body of evidence for it to be accepted as truth, which shows an act of "faith" on your behalf that somehow the rest of the information that's missing will fill itself in to support your claim.

EDIT: and now you prove my point with your edit. There is a "missing link" and given the extremely patient nature of the rest of the fossils to suppose that "well maybe it was only around for one generation and no fossils were preserved" is to defeat the entire chain of logic used to develop the argument. I'm not disagreeing that evolution did not/does not happen, but merely acceptance this theory as absolute truth is closing your mind to additional information that may surface, which is not a very scholarly attitude to keep about it. You must always accept the possibility that you may be wrong until all doubt is removed, is basically what I am advocating.

This post has been edited by Goliath: Mar 21 2008, 10:34 PM


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Smikey2006
post Mar 21 2008, 10:40 PM
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[/quote]

NAME ONE! There are not colossal gaps. It is very solid, only minor questions left.

I am a believer myself, but you just have to accept evolution and meld that into your beliefs. Seriously. Any of these guys trying to shoot it down are just bogus. One of those things you maybe just say, but then, if people are going to be stubborn about it, you give up. Like they are saying the sun really rises in the west, or pigs can fly. You just give up.


edit: also, there are no intermediate steps between us and apes, in fact, no steps at all. we have a common ancestor, but we are not descended from apes.
[/quote]

I agree.. evolution as a theory is sort of like gravity.. gravity is also a theory.. but.. when you jump.. you come down.. its the same situation..


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shellshock1911
post Mar 21 2008, 10:46 PM
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To put and end to the arguement that it is either a theory or fact...A theory is the highest level of scientific truth, which says a lot. It is out to prove anything, just there to offer a possible explanation based on studies.


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Siggum
post Mar 21 2008, 10:48 PM
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Personally i am a non beliver, i respect all religions and that people chooses to belive is their own personal cause. I like to say that i dont belive in anything that i cant see or havent experienced.


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ActiveX
post Mar 21 2008, 11:23 PM
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I was raised in a very strict Christian home, and I attended a private Christian school
for many years. I wasn't allowed to do anything...listening to rock music was a sin, dancing was a sin,
movies and tv were tools of the devil, etc, etc. All of this really turned me off of religion, and when I was about 16 I
stopped going to church, and kind of went down a different path. As I got older I realized that it wasn't God that I had lost
faith in, but in the people who claimed to be speaking for Him. This is why I hate the term "religion". "Religion" as I
see it is just a bunch of rules made up by MEN; not by God. I still believe in God, and I still hold on to many of the core
Christian values that I was taught: being honest, being compassionate, and treating others the way that I would like to be treated.

This post has been edited by ActiveX: Mar 21 2008, 11:24 PM
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kivler
post Mar 21 2008, 11:35 PM
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biggrin.gif believer biggrin.gif
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Smikey2006
post Mar 22 2008, 02:15 AM
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QUOTE (ActiveX @ Mar 21 2008, 06:23 PM) *
I was raised in a very strict Christian home, and I attended a private Christian school
for many years. I wasn't allowed to do anything...listening to rock music was a sin, dancing was a sin,
movies and tv were tools of the devil, etc, etc. All of this really turned me off of religion, and when I was about 16 I
stopped going to church, and kind of went down a different path. As I got older I realized that it wasn't God that I had lost
faith in, but in the people who claimed to be speaking for Him. This is why I hate the term "religion". "Religion" as I
see it is just a bunch of rules made up by MEN; not by God. I still believe in God, and I still hold on to many of the core
Christian values that I was taught: being honest, being compassionate, and treating others the way that I would like to be treated.



this statement gets 5 smilies outta 5

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Muris Varajic
post Mar 22 2008, 02:50 AM
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Here's how I see things,could be a bit odd tho.
Holy Books are saying about creation by Him,
in school they teach us about Evolution,even Big Bang etc.

I support all of this,creation,evolution,Big Bang... smile.gif

There are no videos of creation,no videos of evolution(long therm process),no snapshots of Big Bang. wink.gif

But I do know few things.
I cannot create life on my own,I cannot start or irritate evolution and I would need tons of C4 to have a Small Bang. laugh.gif

So it tells me something about force around us,it doesn't mater how we call it. smile.gif


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Tuubsu
post Mar 22 2008, 06:39 AM
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QUOTE (ActiveX @ Mar 22 2008, 12:23 AM) *
I was raised in a very strict Christian home, and I attended a private Christian school
for many years. I wasn't allowed to do anything...listening to rock music was a sin, dancing was a sin,
movies and tv were tools of the devil, etc, etc. All of this really turned me off of religion, and when I was about 16 I
stopped going to church, and kind of went down a different path. As I got older I realized that it wasn't God that I had lost
faith in, but in the people who claimed to be speaking for Him. This is why I hate the term "religion". "Religion" as I
see it is just a bunch of rules made up by MEN; not by God. I still believe in God, and I still hold on to many of the core
Christian values that I was taught: being honest, being compassionate, and treating others the way that I would like to be treated.


Once again I'm an atheist, but thats one good thing I like about religions, they teach good values, all of them, heck even Satanism.

But still to fkalich: You do realize that if people are capable of killing others and not feel bad about it.... my guess would go their mentally ill, not atheists.


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leedbreak
post Mar 22 2008, 07:32 AM
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Yes, I Praise Him as well.

Its like having Flowers at your door...
Could be luck or maybe chance even a wrong address, but we all rather think some body loves us. A perfect sunset, shooting star, babbling brook, laugh of our child, yeah, If you don't mind me saying, I think somebody loves us.

I have more to say.

I love to look at everything from just what if....

Take humans for instance. We went from riding horses to the space shuttle in less than 100 years. From the printing press to the internet in about the same time.

So lets say you take human advancement up say 100,000 or shoot lets just go for 50M years. I feel it is very possible that we will be able to create new life, add a balance to an other wise, void planet. And so on. Even rebuild the body to give ever lasting life.

Thinking this way just means that it is very possible for there to be something that could have created us and this planet maybe even the whole universe.

I love how science and the bible both start at Nothing then something. BANG, here we are? Gee now what?

So yes, I believe in God, since it is very possible.

More from IMHO


I feel that He wants all of us to go to heaven but yet he does not come back yet, for his own fear of who will reject Him. Just like choosing which kid you will save and which one you will not. The one that ran to you for love, advise and mostly listened to the advise, will be the one you bring up with both hands. But it will still tear your heart apart. When the end is here, God maybe crying since some may not want his love.
A Testimony:

One day about 3 years ago I was out in my boat fishing, go figure. There is a nice sized mountain next to the lake. The bible says God will move that mountain, not because we ask Him to but because we believe He will, after we ask. It is not how you ask but how you believe.

On that day I looked up at the mountain and Told God to move that mountain just to prove to me that He was there. I was over run with emotion and really believed he would move it. But it did not move. The very next day I as looked at the mountain and saw a clearing in the tress that was not there the day before. Since then they have continued clearing trees bulldozing and building subdivisions. Every time I look at that mountain I feel His presence run all over me and he says, Look here you believed I would move it, so I am. Every Single time I see that mountain there is a noticeable a change.


Most of what we ask/pray for is already done, it is just not reveled to us and until it is, it is not there.

This post has been edited by leedbreak: Mar 22 2008, 07:49 AM


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swingline
post Mar 22 2008, 08:15 AM
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I'm a believer, a Roman Catholic. I don't have a beef with people of other or no religion, I firmly believe its their choice and that it should stay that way.
P.S. Last day of Lent now I can have meat on Fridays, Yay!!


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swingline
post Mar 22 2008, 08:18 AM
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QUOTE (Tuubsu @ Mar 21 2008, 10:39 PM) *
Once again I'm an atheist, but thats one good thing I like about religions, they teach good values, all of them, heck even Satanism.


The US government is based heavily on the Chritian faith.


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Tuubsu
post Mar 22 2008, 08:24 AM
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QUOTE (swingline @ Mar 22 2008, 09:18 AM) *
The US government is based heavily on the Chritian faith.


hmmmm.... Your point being...?


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Robin
post Mar 22 2008, 12:29 PM
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QUOTE (Goliath @ Mar 21 2008, 10:29 PM) *
but merely acceptance this theory as absolute truth is closing your mind to additional information that may surface, which is not a very scholarly attitude to keep about it. You must always accept the possibility that you may be wrong until all doubt is removed, is basically what I am advocating.

I agree a 100%. As i said earlier, of course i dont accept it as absolute truth. But i still believe that we know it to a high degree of certainty that evolution is the explanation for the complexity and diversity of life. But i will not try to continute this discussion because you obviously know alot more than me about this. I should thank you, because you encouraged me to start reading more, from both sides.


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The Uncreator
post Mar 22 2008, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 21 2008, 05:50 PM) *
But I do know few things.
I cannot create life on my own,I cannot start or irritate evolution and I would need tons of C4 to have a Small Bang. laugh.gif


laugh.gif

Hahaha, thats the best post so far
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at lights end
post Mar 22 2008, 09:18 PM
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i was brought up into the church of england. but as i've grown older and more intelligent i've started to question christianity. big questions like "where did god come from?" and there are also aspects that i disagree with. i ticked theist, as i believe in a god or some sort of spiritual thing, but not so much the religion to which i am part of. im not really sure of my beliefs at the moment.


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David Wallimann
post Mar 22 2008, 11:03 PM
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It's always a little delicate to share your beliefs with others.
I think mostly because when you have strong beliefs about something, which are certitudes for you, you sound intolerant with others...

But I guess since the topic is clear, it's appropriate to tell what your beliefs are here and I would feel wrong not sharing with you. I don't want to sound like I know it all, because I don't. I also don't want to sound like I am better than anyone else. I think quite the opposite.

I'm a Christian. I think there are a lot of misunderstanding on what that means. The Church is to blame too. I think even in the Church, there are a lot of misunderstanding here.

Here what being Christian means to me on a daily basis from my personal experience. I am a sinner. No matter how hard I try, I always end up to that conclusion, I am a sinner and I do what is hurtful. Even when I think I am doing good, I realize that my motives are not pure. I know that the concept of sin is not very popular, and many say that sin is relative.. But from my experience it's not. Guilt is not something that my brain just makes up.. I think it's proof that man has that knowledge of good and evil.

Because of that sin which we chose, there is a separation between us and God. There is nothing I can do to get back in the right place, nothing I can do to deserve God's favor. But I believe with all my heart that because God loved us so much, he gave his only son Jesus to take the punishment of our sin on himself. Accepting that free gift by giving our hearts to Jesus means that we are no longer living enslaved to sin and its punishment which is death. But it means that we now belong to Christ, hence the name "Christian". That does not make me good or better, not at all.. But that makes Him in me shine.

Those are my beliefs and only hope. :-)


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