Minor Pentatonic Over Major Chords, How does it work? Options

[Matt23]

I've always wondered why in blues and i think in other styles the minor pentatonic or blues scale is played over major chords, when it has one note saying it is minor (minor 3rd) and another note suggesting it is minor (the dominant 7th which is in all the minor modes but also one major mode). Is it cos the minor 3rd is a 2nd in the pentatonic scale and the 7th is a 5th so they dont make the scale minor anymore? Thanks on advance to anyone who can explain this to me.

[Iluha]

I've always wondered why in blues and i think in other styles the minor pentatonic or blues scale is played over major chords, when it has one note saying it is minor (minor 3rd) and another note suggesting it is minor (the dominant 7th which is in all the minor modes but also one major mode). Is it cos the minor 3rd is a 2nd in the pentatonic scale and the 7th is a 5th so they dont make the scale minor anymore? Thanks on advance to anyone who can explain this to me.

That's because every minor scale has a relative major scale, for example A minor is the 6th mode of C major, meaning C major key = A minor Key, meaning you can solo using the A minor scale over major chords found in the C major scale.

I hope I made sense, if you want more indepth info check out Andrew's modes lessons.

EDIT: Since you are asking about the pentatonics I just want to point out that if you can use a minor scale, you can use a pentatonic minor scale =p

This post has been edited by Iluha: Jul 14 2008, 06:23 PM

[Andrew Cockburn]

In addition to what Iluha mentioned, the clash between the minor 3rd in the scale and the major 3rd in the chords has a name .... The Blues! This tension is an essential element.

Point of order as well - in your initial post you speculated that it was because the 2nd note of the pentatonic was clashing with the 3rd note of the major scale, and that there was therefore no problem becauise they weren't both 3rds - in fact the degrees of the scale don't matter here, it is the intervals from the roots that count, and they really are a minor 3rd vs a major 3rd.

In fact, intervals are based on the degrees of the major scale only, so it makes sense to talk of a 3rd being the 2nd note of a pentatonic scale because it is, in comparison to the notes used in a major scale ... hope that is clear

[Matt23]

Thanks guys for your help. Iluha i thought in blues if you have a backing in A major for example you would play a solo in A blues scale, not F# blues. And Andrew are you basically saying that the clash between minor and major 3rds is just what blues sounds like and even though in theory it shouldn't work it does.

[Andrew Cockburn]

And Andrew are you basically saying that the clash between minor and major 3rds is just what blues sounds like and even though in theory it shouldn't work it does.

Exactly!

[Muris Varajic]

I would add one thing if I may.

Many blues players play minor penta over major chord
but not so raw and pure,more smooth I would say.
Per example each minor 3rd ends up with tiny bend,
not even semi tone bend (to major 3rd) but just enough
to crashes the sound of pure minor 3rd.

[kjutte]

I would add one thing if I may.

Many blues players play minor penta over major chord
but not so raw and pure,more smooth I would say.
Per example each minor 3rd ends up with tiny bend,
not even semi tone bend (to major 3rd) but just enough
to crashes the sound of pure minor 3rd.

Can be played in Phrygian position too.

[Muris Varajic]

Can be played in Phrygian position too.

What is Phrygian position?
Must be honest with you,I haven't heard of it before

[kjutte]

What is Phrygian position?
Must be honest with you,I haven't heard of it before

You know, the phrygian modal box. third box of major scale. Walliman taught me.

[Muris Varajic]

You know, the phrygian modal box. third box of major scale. Walliman taught me.

Ahh,3rd box, got it, thanks.

[kjutte]

Ahh,3rd box, got it, thanks.

maybe I should have said starting from third note.

Edit:
well actually, from dorian's postion too...

This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 15 2008, 12:15 PM

[Muris Varajic]

maybe I should have said starting from third note.

Edit:
well actually, from dorian's postion too...

No problem at all,I see what you mean.

Actually I never thought of that this way,
I prefer to use name of the mode only when mode is in use,
otherwise it might confuse someone.

[kjutte]

No problem at all,I see what you mean.

Actually I never thought of that this way,
I prefer to use name of the mode only when mode is in use,
otherwise it might confuse someone.

Yeah I agree, that's why I said position. I learnt from Vinnie moore, becuase he clearly says "A mode is just adifferent position of the scale"

[Muris Varajic]

Yeah I agree, that's why I said position. I learnt from Vinnie moore, becuase he clearly says "A mode is just adifferent position of the scale"

Oups,I cannot agree with that,
if you see mode as only position than you're
missing the whole point I'm afraind

[DeepRoots]

I think its important to see modes as a seperate flavour with their own set of chords and characteristic note etc.
However- i do find it alot easier that when i think in terms of 3nps scale or even the 7 box shapes you can make from the major scale and its modes i can think in terms of "mode shapes".

So if im playing through A major ill go to B dorian, C phrygian--not on purpose really- i just kind of think that if the start note of the position was the root note then it'd be C phrygian (or whatever).

So im just using the concept of modes to help my remember the shapes etc and i can then use this concept (see 7 modal positions in a scale) for each of the modes- so for all that i only need to remember 7 shapes.

Having said that- I know thats not modal playing, i'm just using that concept to help map out the fetboard (until i can stop thinking in terms of boxes and see the neck as a whole scale diagram, which hasn't happened yet).

Just my 2 cents, though each has its own flavour- i can use the "shape" as an advantage.

edit: Also i find it important to remember that though im using perhaps B dorian shape- im still using A as root note when playing in A major

This post has been edited by DeepRoots: Jul 15 2008, 12:52 PM

[kjutte]

I think its important to see modes as a seperate flavour with their own set of chords and characteristic note etc.
However- i do find it alot easier that when i think in terms of 3nps scale or even the 7 box shapes you can make from the major scale and its modes i can think in terms of "mode shapes".

So if im playing through A major ill go to B dorian, C phrygian--not on purpose really- i just kind of think that if the start note of the position was the root note then it'd be C phrygian (or whatever).

So im just using the concept of modes to help my remember the shapes etc and i can then use this concept (see 7 modal positions in a scale) for each of the modes- so for all that i only need to remember 7 shapes.

Having said that- I know thats not modal playing, i'm just using that concept to help map out the fetboard (until i can stop thinking in terms of boxes and see the neck as a whole scale diagram, which hasn't happened yet).

Just my 2 cents, though each has its own flavour- i can use the "shape" as an advantage.

edit: Also i find it important to remember that though im using perhaps B dorian shape- im still using A as root note when playing in A major

I also remember the modal patterns when swapping, because I don't have the ear to unvisualize yet.

Oups,I cannot agree with that,
if you see mode as only position than you're
missing the whole point I'm afraind

No no. But if you play the C major scale,and start with the note of D, you will get the startingpoint of dorian.

I know that Cmin + b3b7 = dorian.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 15 2008, 02:22 PM

[Muris Varajic]

No no. But if you play the C major scale,and start with the note of D, you will get the startingpoint of dorian.

I know that Cmin + b3#7 = dorian.

Absolutely,but idea is not the get starting point
but the whole sound,each mode has its own sound as you know.
I remember that many of my class mates in high school
had troubles to understand modes just because of approach like that
"you start from 2nd degree and you have Dorian,from 3rd and you have Phrygian etc"

[Ivan Milenkovic]

Blues is somewhat similar to dorian. Dorian mode has notes from minor and major pentatonic. Blues scale is basically just a minor scale with one note added - the blue note. It represents some sort of ''compromise'' between western (american country) and eastern (african etno) music.

Also true blues masters rely heavily on both minor and major pentatonic harmonies around one root note and mix them seamlessly. That is one of the essence of the blues, other than blue note..

[kjutte]

Absolutely,but idea is not the get starting point
but the whole sound,each mode has its own sound as you know.
I remember that many of my class mates in high school
had troubles to understand modes just because of approach like that
"you start from 2nd degree and you have Dorian,from 3rd and you have Phrygian etc"

I know it's all about each mode's characteristic, but to truly apply it, I have to have a very good ear, and also have very good knowledge of notes. At the moment I know the rules, but not all the notes of fretboard. If I did, it would be much easier.

As Eric Johnson said "What I think is very important, is the ability to point somewhere at the fretboard, and instantly know which note it is."

Edit:
Oh, and I know that the whole scale changes when you modulate. I know that each scale box ain't a mode

This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 15 2008, 02:23 PM

[Muris Varajic]

As Eric Johnson said "What I think is very important, is the ability to point somewhere at the fretboard, and instantly know which note it is."

Edit:
Oh, and I know that the whole scale changes when you modulate. I know that each scale box ain't a mode

Yep,locating all the notes on the fretboard,specially root, is most important.