Modal Playing Question Options

[fatb0t]

Okay, another question for you experts out there =) More of a reinforcement thing I suppose...

The A Major scale - I want to have a Phygian feel to it but still play the same notes in the A major scale.

So if I'm playing a A Major then switch to C#m7 but continue to play the A Major scale it will sound phygian?
Does this mean if I play A Major then switch to G#dim but continue to play the A Major scale it will sound locrian?
A Major to F#m will sound aeolian?

Is this how it works? Kindaaaaaa confused.

This post has been edited by fatb0t: Jul 24 2008, 03:11 PM

[kjutte]

Okay, another question for you experts out there =) More of a reinforcement thing I suppose...

The A Major scale - I want to have a Phygian feel to it but still play the same notes in the A major scale.

So if I'm playing a A Major then switch to C#m7 but continue to play the A Major scale it will sound phygian?
Does this mean if I play A Major then switch to G#dim but continue to play the A Major scale it will sound locrian?
A Major to F#m will sound aeolian?

Is this how it works? Kindaaaaaa confused.

Correct, it will get that sound. But remember that you're only litterally modulating when you change the rootnotes.
But again, yes, you will get its sound. Record it and try!

This is called a modal chordprogression by the way

Edit:
Remember that this is just the mode's characteristic sounds.
Actually modulating gives the whole idea even more character. You can play a cool lick all over the neck, in a symmetrical way, if you just follow up with the chords. It can make it alot more spaced out.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 24 2008, 03:30 PM

[fatb0t]

Cool, can't wait to go home and try this out.

Second question!

How do you modulate when there is distortion on the guitars and 1-3-5, 1-3-5-7, 1-b3-5, 1-b3-b5, 1-b3-b5-b7, ect... chords sound like poop? And basically all you can get out is a 1-5 chord?

For instance, in the band Testament, Alex Skolnick kicks so much ass with the phygian mode...

Just change to the mode you want it to sound like?

This post has been edited by fatb0t: Jul 24 2008, 07:35 PM

[Andrew Cockburn]

Okay, another question for you experts out there =) More of a reinforcement thing I suppose...

The A Major scale - I want to have a Phygian feel to it but still play the same notes in the A major scale.

So if I'm playing a A Major then switch to C#m7 but continue to play the A Major scale it will sound phygian?
Does this mean if I play A Major then switch to G#dim but continue to play the A Major scale it will sound locrian?
A Major to F#m will sound aeolian?

Is this how it works? Kindaaaaaa confused.

Lets be careful here ...

What you are talking about is really barely modes at all - it is the norm to play notes out of a particular scale and switch to different chords within that scale, yet still play notes out of the original scale, that is business as usual, and isn't particularly modal. You can analyze it in this way but you are really missing the benefits of modes and not really learning their sound too well. When doing this, I don;t think you really get the feel of the various modes unless you play a run of notes that starts on the root of the chord you are playing - in this case the C#m, and that is a fairly artificial way of playing although it can be effective.

Think of this as "modes light" - whern you really want to understand modal playing the best thing to do is to compare 2 modes with the ame root note, for instance A Ionian and A Phrygian.

This is called a modal chordprogression by the way

Actually it isn't really a modal chord progression (well it is, its Ionian of course) but to get a modal chord progression you really need to start with the chord in question as the root chord. So, to make a Phrygian progression out of the example above, you would need to start with C#m and play other chords such as A out of that scale. Why does that make it modal? Well, if you started with C#m, on its own it doesn't tell you much except that the root is C#, and the notes of C#, E and G# are in the scale. That could equally apply to C# dorian, C# minor(Aeolian) or C# phrygian. Your next chord will probably cement the mode - if you picked an A that could only be Phrygian. If you picked an E it could be Dorian or Phrygian, but if you picked D#Minor, it could only be Dorian.

[fatb0t]

Think of this as "modes light" - whern you really want to understand modal playing the best thing to do is to compare 2 modes with the ame root note, for instance A Ionian and A Phrygian.

Ok:

Ionian: 1 2 34 5 6 7
Phrygian: 1b2 b3 4 5b6 b7

I'm comparing. Now what =) How does one modulate?

This post has been edited by fatb0t: Jul 24 2008, 08:16 PM

[Andrew Cockburn]

Ok:

Ionian: 1 2 34 5 6 7
Phrygian: 1b2 b3 4 5b6 b7

I'm comparing. Now what =) How does one modulate?

Modulating is easy - deciding where to modulate to is harder

Ionian to Phrygian modulation is like any other modulation - you start a phrase in one key and end it in the second, or even just shift at the beginning of a particular bar, and of course your chords have to shift at the same time, so in the key of C ionian, you might move from a 5th (G7 chord), and then hit a note in a chord out of the C Phrygian scale, lets say you choose C minor. Pick one of the strong notes to hit - either root or 5th work well. So, the following happens:

1. In C major, play chords out of C Dm Em F G Am Bdim
2. Have a phrase that ends on G
3. We modulate to CPhyrg - probably best to make the chord Cminor to cement the root note
4. Your phrasing plays through one bar using the major scale, and at the beginning of the next, you change chord to Cminor, and in the melody hit either a C or G (both notes out of the chord of C minor),
5. Start playing in C phrygian, use chords out of this list : Cm Db Eb Fm Gdim Ab Bbm

Thats the basis - however, that modulation is not a common one, for the reason that the best modulations are those in which only a few notes are changed at once, for instance Major to Lydian (one note), Minor to Dorian (1 note) or even Dorian to Mixolydian (1 note). Major to Phrygian is a change of 4 notes so is a bit of a stretch, but could be cool for the right kind of effect. Most important though, on the side of this modulation is that the root stays the same which helps a lot, and so does the 5th - these are good strong notes to throw the others around.

[kjutte]

Modulating is easy - deciding where to modulate to is harder

Ionian to Phrygian modulation is like any other modulation - you start a phrase in one key and end it in the second, or even just shift at the beginning of a particular bar, and of course your chords have to shift at the same time, so in the key of C ionian, you might move from a 5th (G7 chord), and then hit a note in a chord out of the C Phrygian scale, lets say you choose C minor. Pick one of the strong notes to hit - either root or 5th work well. So, the following happens:

1. In C major, play chords out of C Dm Em F G Am Bdim
2. Have a phrase that ends on G
3. We modulate to CPhyrg - probably best to make the chord Cminor to cement the root note
4. Your phrasing plays through one bar using the major scale, and at the beginning of the next, you change chord to Cminor, and in the melody hit either a C or G (both notes out of the chord of C minor),
5. Start playing in C phrygian, use chords out of this list : Cm Db Eb Fm Gdim Ab Bbm

Thats the basis - however, that modulation is not a common one, for the reason that the best modulations are those in which only a few notes are changed at once, for instance Major to Lydian (one note), Minor to Dorian (1 note) or even Dorian to Mixolydian (1 note). Major to Phrygian is a change of 4 notes so is a bit of a stretch, but could be cool for the right kind of effect. Most important though, on the side of this modulation is that the root stays the same which helps a lot, and so does the 5th - these are good strong notes to throw the others around.

When you're playing a Gmaj chord, how can the Eminor scale not sound major?
I think I need some focus here too.

Cool, can't wait to go home and try this out.

Second question!

How do you modulate when there is distortion on the guitars and 1-3-5, 1-3-5-7, 1-b3-5, 1-b3-b5, 1-b3-b5-b7, ect... chords sound like poop? And basically all you can get out is a 1-5 chord?

For instance, in the band Testament, Alex Skolnick kicks so much ass with the phygian mode...

Just change to the mode you want it to sound like?

Well, phrygian I find hard to manage too. I think you gotta make an exotic chord progression to really get there. Not sure really. Check the lessons on gmc and check which chords were used.

[Andrew Cockburn]

When you're playing a Gmaj chord, how can the Eminor scale not sound major?
I think I need some focus here too.

That's a very good question and gets right to the heart of it!

You are absolutely right, when playing an E minor scale over a G major chord it does sound major, and taken strictly in isolation, that scale over that chord can be viewed as a piece of modal playing - G is the relative Ionian of E Aeolian as I am sure you are aware.

What I am trying to explain here, so bear with me, is that looking at things in that way in isolation is of very limited use, although interesting in a theoretical kind of way.

Say we have a chord progression that goes C F G, the scale is C major.

There are 2 ways to look at it.

Firstly you could say that it is C ionian followed by F Lydian followed by G Mixolydian - you wouldn't be wrong in this analysis but what you are doing is splitting out each chord individually and analysing it in isolation, and you can't really say anything about a progression when you look at each chord individually.

The second way is to say that it is played in the key of C major, and the progression is simple C, F and G - that is what we normally do, nothing here is mysterious, and that is because this kind of playing is not really modal at all, we are merely using chords built out of a scale. (If you want to split hairs you can say that it is modal, since it is in Ionian mode but this doesn't really prove anything since everything we play is in one mode or another, we just don't usually mention it for the simpler and more common scales such as pentatonic, major minor etc.)

So given the above, in order to build a truly modal chord progression (and let me be precise here, by modal I mean use of a mode other than Aeolian or Ionian since we tend to do these without thinking about it), you need to look at the progression as a whole, including the root note/chord, and only then can you figure out that it is modal. There are a few easy ones that it pays to learn:

Im7 - V7 is distinctively Dorian
Imaj7 - II7 is distinctly Lydian
Idim will always be Locrian
Im - bIIm will always be Phrygian

As you can see, its about picking out the unusual chord relationships from a progression that make them part of a distinctive mode and you can only do this when you look at all of the chords together.

So, to sumarize - whilst its not strictly speaking wrong to look at the chords in isolation and talk about relative modes, that doesn't really get you very far, and is not truly modal.

Well, phrygian I find hard to manage too. I think you gotta make an exotic chord progression to really get there. Not sure really. Check the lessons on gmc and check which chords were used.

Its a tough one - a lot of people will instinctively use Ionian, Aeolian, Dorian and Mixolydian, also Lydian at a stretch, however Phrygian and Locrian you usually have to mean it, and this is simply because few common chord progressions derive from these modes and therefore drive the use of the modes themselves.

[kjutte]

That's a very good question and gets right to the heart of it!

You are absolutely right, when playing an E minor scale over a G major chord it does sound major, and taken strictly in isolation, that scale over that chord can be viewed as a piece of modal playing - G is the relative Ionian of E Aeolian as I am sure you are aware.

What I am trying to explain here, so bear with me, is that looking at things in that way in isolation is of very limited use, although interesting in a theoretical kind of way.

Say we have a chord progression that goes C F G, the scale is C major.

There are 2 ways to look at it.

Firstly you could say that it is C ionian followed by F Lydian followed by G Mixolydian - you wouldn't be wrong in this analysis but what you are doing is splitting out each chord individually and analysing it in isolation, and you can't really say anything about a progression when you look at each chord individually.

The second way is to say that it is played in the key of C major, and the progression is simple C, F and G - that is what we normally do, nothing here is mysterious, and that is because this kind of playing is not really modal at all, we are merely using chords built out of a scale. (If you want to split hairs you can say that it is modal, since it is in Ionian mode but this doesn't really prove anything since everything we play is in one mode or another, we just don't usually mention it for the simpler and more common scales such as pentatonic, major minor etc.)

So given the above, in order to build a truly modal chord progression (and let me be precise here, by modal I mean use of a mode other than Aeolian or Ionian since we tend to do these without thinking about it), you need to look at the progression as a whole, including the root note/chord, and only then can you figure out that it is modal. There are a few easy ones that it pays to learn:

Im7 - V7 is distinctively Dorian
Imaj7 - II7 is distinctly Lydian
Idim will always be Locrian
Im - bIIm will always be Phrygian

As you can see, its about picking out the unusual chord relationships from a progression that make them part of a distinctive mode and you can only do this when you look at all of the chords together.

So, to sumarize - whilst its not strictly speaking wrong to look at the chords in isolation and talk about relative modes, that doesn't really get you very far, and is not truly modal.



Its a tough one - a lot of people will instinctively use Ionian, Aeolian, Dorian and Mixolydian, also Lydian at a stretch, however Phrygian and Locrian you usually have to mean it, and this is simply because few common chord progressions derive from these modes and therefore drive the use of the modes themselves.

GREAT explanation!
I have indeed noticed that Phrygian haven't really sounded too phrygian when I just pick some random chords.

What do you mean by Flat IIminor by the way? because phrygian has a flat 2nd?

Edit:

Im7 - V7 is distinctively Dorian
Imaj7 - II7 is distinctly Lydian
Idim will always be Locrian
Im - bIIm will always be Phrygian

You emphasize that it will always be that progression. Why? I'd like to know the maths behind!

Edit again:
And what do you mean Im bIIm anyway? Phrygian is followed by a lydian (major). Am I thinking wrong?

AND another edit:
What do you mean that few chords derive from locrian and phrygian? the scale patterns still remain the same, and so will the chords just in another startingpoint, right? This is getting really weird.

feeeeeeeeedback please!

This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 25 2008, 02:41 PM

[Andrew Cockburn]

GREAT explanation!
I have indeed noticed that Phrygian haven't really sounded too phrygian when I just pick some random chords.

What do you mean by Flat IIminor by the way? because phrygian has a flat 2nd?

Yes, exatly that - lets look at C major (my favourite scale as it has no sharps and flats!)

C D E F G A B

Its relative phrygian is E:

E F G A B C D

E to F is a flat 2nd interval, and we can describe phrygian as:

1 (root),b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7

So, the chords we would also name using that scheme, so in our example,

1 is E minor
b2 is F minor

The only one of the major modes that allows a b2 (major) as a valid chord with a minor as the root is Phrygian.

Locrian allows a b2 (major) as well, but in this case the root is diminished so you can easily tell the difference.

Edit:

Im7 - V7 is distinctively Dorian
Imaj7 - II7 is distinctly Lydian
Idim will always be Locrian
Im - bIIm will always be Phrygian

You emphasize that it will always be that progression. Why? I'd like to know the maths behind!

I actually said it the other way around - each of those progressions will always be that particular mode. You can figure out many progressions that could be a number of modes, for instance, Imajor, Vmajor could be Major, Lydian (notice I am not adding the 7ths here as they would actually distinguish between the 2 as I-V7 is major, I-Vmaj7 is lydian)

However, the progressions I picked out above were carefully chosen to illustrate the modes I listed unambiguously - you will never get a Im7 - V7 in anything else but Dorian, however that is only one of a huge number of possible dorian progressions.

Make the chords even simpler and you end up with even more leeway. For instance, Smoke on the water is played with power chords. Ignoring the accidental shift in there, it is:

I IV V

In the key of C it has the notes:

I - C G
IV - F C
V - G D

so:

C D F G

So, it could be:

Ionian
Dorian
Not Phrygian (as it would need a Db)
Mixolydian
Not Lydian (as it would need an F#)
Aeolian
Not Locrian as it would need a Gb and a Db

Edit again:
And what do you mean Im bIIm anyway? Phrygian is followed by a lydian (major). Am I thinking wrong?

bIIm is relative to the root of the phrygian scale which is 1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7

So the chord on the 2nd degree would be a bII minor - lydian doesn;t enter into it.

AND another edit:
What do you mean that few chords derive from locrian and phrygian? the scale patterns still remain the same, and so will the chords just in another startingpoint, right? This is getting really weird.

feeeeeeeeedback please!

Phrygian and Locrian both have chord constructs in them that are a little unusual to western ears. Phrygian has that bII, and locrian has that as well as a diminished chord on the root - these ore unusual enough that they don;t tend to be chord sequences that people happen upon naturally, you usually end up with these because you are trying to play in that specific mode. On the other hand, chords that belong to the rest of the modes tend to pop up more easily without any specific modal intentions so people often find themselves putting together a modal chord progression in say Dorian or Mixolydian without really intending to.

[kjutte]

So you're saying that the Rootchord is alpha omega?

Ok, I had to read it like 5 times, but I understand now.
Gonna experiment with my loop pedal!

Thanks andrew!

Edit:
What do you mean Phrygian's second degree is minor?
:S:S:S:S::S

This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 25 2008, 06:35 PM

[Andrew Cockburn]

So you're saying that the Rootchord is alpha omega?

Ok, I had to read it like 5 times, but I understand now.
Gonna experiment with my loop pedal!

Thanks andrew!

Edit:
What do you mean Phrygian's second degree is minor?
:S:S:S:S::S

The root chord is certainly very important, but is not essential - its just a lot harder to work with a mode in which the root chord isn't present, so my advice is don't!

Regarding your second question, I should have said "The chord constructed from a phyrgian mode in which the root note (of that chord) is the 2nd degree (of the phrygian mode) is minor"

[kjutte]

The root chord is certainly very important, but is not essential - its just a lot harder to work with a mode in which the root chord isn't present, so my advice is don't!

Regarding your second question, I should have said "The chord constructed from a phyrgian mode in which the root note (of that chord) is the 2nd degree (of the phrygian mode) is minor"

Yes you should

So, if I got Emin Fmaj G maj Amin Bdim C maj Dmin
I will get the phrygian that I want?

[fatb0t]

http://www.theshredzone.com/content/article.asp?pageid=221