0 0

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Breaking Past Powerchords - Lesson Request
jer
post Sep 11 2008, 01:15 PM
Post #1


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.889
Joined: 3-September 08
From: Des Moines IA USA
Member No.: 5.836



Powerchords.

Love em. Hate em.

I'm stuck.

If I pick up the guitar to jam along with a drum track I fall back on powerchords every time. And guess what? All my riffs sound the same.

Then I turn on music by bands like Opeth, In Flames, Soilwork, Queensryche, & Iron Maiden and I hear rich full chords in parts that really make the bands sound.

I don't know how to do that. mad.gif

I know a lot of the "cowboy chords" but we all know you arent going to get a decent sound playing a full on open C chord with high gain. tongue.gif

So where do these other chords come from? This is what I fail to learn and add to my pallette.

So here is my idea for a lesson. huh.gif

QUOTE
*Take a powerchord riff. Any powerchord riff over a simple drum backing and show how you can use "other" chords in place of the powerchords to give it a different vibe.

Start with the powerchord version then begin changing it up wth other chord styles.


Thanks for listening!

cool.gif


--------------------
My Gear

Jackson SL-1 USA Soloist
Jackson DK2M
ESP LTD MH-400
ESP LTD EC-1000
Ibanez Custom S-Series
Martin 001 Acoustic

Handmade Marshall JCM800 50watt head (with mods)
Carvin 50x2 Stereo Tube Amp
Boss GT-10 Preamp/Effects Processor
Digitech GSP-1101 Preamp/Effects Processor
Behringer FCB1010 Midi Controlled Floorboard
Behringer Dualfex EX2200
Behinger Stereo EQ
Line 6 POD with 2.3 upgrade
Line 6 Floor Board
Line 6 Spider III Practice Amp
Nady UHF Wireless


"Who will eat the decay, when the worms have lost their sight?"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
audiopaal
post Sep 11 2008, 01:31 PM
Post #2


Competitions Coordinator - Up the Irons
Group Icon

Group: GMC Senior
Posts: 5.447
Joined: 17-February 08
From: Stavanger, Norway
Member No.: 4.276



I think this would be a great idea for a lesson smile.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
opeth.db
post Sep 11 2008, 01:40 PM
Post #3


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.156
Joined: 11-September 08
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Member No.: 5.886



That sounds like an awesome idea for a video lesson. I often wonder about that myself and yes I always do fall back on them standard power chords as well.


--------------------
My Gear
Ibanez RG570 Silver
Jackson Ofset V Randy Rhodes Signature
Mitchell Acoustic
Custom Ibanez S series (Currently working on)
X2 XDS95 Digital Wireless system
Line 6 MKII
8 Channel USB Roland Mixer

My Site
www.shredwork.com

Learn how to count. It's what separates the hack and the pros IMHO. -LCSDDS
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kjutte
post Sep 11 2008, 02:32 PM
Post #4


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.710
Joined: 17-July 07
From: Norway
Member No.: 2.337



Well, it depends on what you want.

Personally I always pick the chords first, depending on what flavor I want from the solo.
Your chord progression can either lock you into one scale, or free you toward alot.

A powerchord consists of two notes, so it opens pretty many doors. However, you're right, they're quite boring.
Take a look at the Cmajor scale, it's a diatonic scale, meaning it has 7 notes.

When it has 7 notes, it will also have 7 degrees. Each of these degrees have their own chord.
So,again, Cmajor.

C D E F G A B.

A basic triad consists of the 1, 3 and 5th note of the degree. And degrees are put like this I-VII, or I, II, III, IV, V, VI and VII. You get the point.

So, the chords:

I - C E G
II - D F A
III - E G B
IV - F A C
V - G B D
VI - A C E
VII - B D F

So, obviously you can see that each degree has their set of notes, derived straight from the scale.
Let's talk about how this work:

You see, it's all about the intervals.

The first degree is obviously major, because we're in C major.
So:

I - Cmaj
II - Dmin
III - Emin
IV - Fmaj
V - Gmaj
VI - Amin
VII - Bdim

These chords, is the modal progression of Cionian.
However you can swap them just as you wish, aslong as the intervals remain the same.

So let's say you wanna make a chord progression in Ephrygian.
Let's break this down and use Ephryg as root instead, so you can see the connection.

Firstly we will have the E as a root. So:

Emin
Fmaj
Gmaj
Amin
Bdim
Cmaj
Dmin

So, I hope you can see that the chords come from scales, but how you choose your progression is usually by which scales you want to use.
However, let's say you want to play a melodic feely piece.

Lydian is a good mode for this!

As with phrygian, we do it the same way. We will use Lydian as a root. Let's use C lydian this time.

C lydian will be:

Cmaj
Dmaj
Emin
F#dim
Gmaj
Amin
Bmin

Again, this is the full progression.

Try this:

Cmaj7, Dmaj, Cmaj7, Dmaj etc.
And play C lydian over it.

This will give you an idea of how this works.
The reason I picked these two chords is because lydian's second degree, namedly another major chord, will go good together with the root, to make a nice lydian feely progression.

Anyway, this may be a bit more than you asked for, but it will hopefully give you some insight to the whole chord progression subject.
Learn the scales, know their degrees, know the chords of each degree, to each scale you want to use.

When you can do this, you can easily mix up major scales with exotic scales like harmonic minor, et cetera!

Hope this helps!

Edit:
and to add a quick reply to the question, to break past powerchords you need scale knowledge.
The majorscale consists of 7 degrees, and each have its pattern. Pick the 1 3 5th note of each pattern, and you'll automatically know all the 7 chords without even trying smile.gif

This post has been edited by kjutte: Sep 11 2008, 02:33 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
RIP Dime
post Sep 11 2008, 02:34 PM
Post #5


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.063
Joined: 2-October 06
From: Hawaii
Member No.: 862



Yes, a lesson like this would help many people!


--------------------
IPB Image
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jer
post Sep 11 2008, 02:42 PM
Post #6


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.889
Joined: 3-September 08
From: Des Moines IA USA
Member No.: 5.836



QUOTE (RIP Dime @ Sep 11 2008, 08:34 AM) *
Yes, a lesson like this would help many people!


I'd like to keep it simple at first.

Lets say I'm writing a basic rock chord progression in Emin.

The minor scale formula is w,h,w,w,h,w,w So E min would be E,F#,G,A,B,C,D,E

What I would normally do is play 2 note powerchords (root and 5th - so they are not minor OR major) based on those notes.

E powerchord
F# powerchord
G powerchord

etc....

I ouldnt use all of them, but those are the 7 I'd have in my back pocket.

What I'm looking for are alternatives to these. I do relaize that by straying from root/5th powerchords (diads really) I'll be dictating what leads will fit nicely over the top. Since we'll be adding in notes that will steer this in a particular direction.

Am I thinking right here????



--------------------
My Gear

Jackson SL-1 USA Soloist
Jackson DK2M
ESP LTD MH-400
ESP LTD EC-1000
Ibanez Custom S-Series
Martin 001 Acoustic

Handmade Marshall JCM800 50watt head (with mods)
Carvin 50x2 Stereo Tube Amp
Boss GT-10 Preamp/Effects Processor
Digitech GSP-1101 Preamp/Effects Processor
Behringer FCB1010 Midi Controlled Floorboard
Behringer Dualfex EX2200
Behinger Stereo EQ
Line 6 POD with 2.3 upgrade
Line 6 Floor Board
Line 6 Spider III Practice Amp
Nady UHF Wireless


"Who will eat the decay, when the worms have lost their sight?"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kjutte
post Sep 11 2008, 02:46 PM
Post #7


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.710
Joined: 17-July 07
From: Norway
Member No.: 2.337



QUOTE (jer @ Sep 11 2008, 03:42 PM) *
I'd like to keep it simple at first.

Lets say I'm writing a basic rock chord progression in Emin.

The minor scale formula is w,h,w,w,h,w,w So E min would be E,F#,G,A,B,C,D,E

What I would normally do is play 2 note powerchords (root and 5th - so they are not minor OR major) based on those notes.

E powerchord
F# powerchord
G powerchord

etc....

I ouldnt use all of them, but those are the 7 I'd have in my back pocket.

What I'm looking for are alternatives to these. I do relaize that by straying from root/5th powerchords (diads really) I'll be dictating what leads will fit nicely over the top. Since we'll be adding in notes that will steer this in a particular direction.

Am I thinking right here????


If you stray off the rootscale with your P.chords, yes, that's modulating.

And, a powerchord won't work for every degree.
Locrian, because it has a diminished 5th.

So, anyway, you can use 6 powerchords and still stick to one scale. Naturally you can change octaves though.

And by the way, if you stick to the minor progression, it will sound minor even though you don't have a minor 3rd in your powerchord.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Sep 11 2008, 02:49 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jer
post Sep 11 2008, 02:53 PM
Post #8


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.889
Joined: 3-September 08
From: Des Moines IA USA
Member No.: 5.836



QUOTE (kjutte @ Sep 11 2008, 08:46 AM) *
And, a powerchord won't work for every degree.
Locrian, because it has a diminished 5th.


Bear with me, I'm new still. wink.gif

The Locrian reference is for the 7th degree yes?

The D?

Isnt a D powerchord just D and A?

And both notes are part of the Emin scale arent they?

So why wouldnt a powerchord work for the 7th degree too?




--------------------
My Gear

Jackson SL-1 USA Soloist
Jackson DK2M
ESP LTD MH-400
ESP LTD EC-1000
Ibanez Custom S-Series
Martin 001 Acoustic

Handmade Marshall JCM800 50watt head (with mods)
Carvin 50x2 Stereo Tube Amp
Boss GT-10 Preamp/Effects Processor
Digitech GSP-1101 Preamp/Effects Processor
Behringer FCB1010 Midi Controlled Floorboard
Behringer Dualfex EX2200
Behinger Stereo EQ
Line 6 POD with 2.3 upgrade
Line 6 Floor Board
Line 6 Spider III Practice Amp
Nady UHF Wireless


"Who will eat the decay, when the worms have lost their sight?"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kjutte
post Sep 11 2008, 02:58 PM
Post #9


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.710
Joined: 17-July 07
From: Norway
Member No.: 2.337



QUOTE (jer @ Sep 11 2008, 03:53 PM) *
Bear with me, I'm new still. wink.gif

The Locrian reference is for the 7th degree yes?

The D?

Isnt a D powerchord just D and A?

And both notes are part of the Emin scale arent they?

So why wouldnt a powerchord work for the 7th degree too?


Because the seventh degree has, IF we're in major (because only major has a diminished 7th degree. Minor (or aeolian) would have locrian to be its II degree.)

Anyway. Locrian, or the diminished chord degree, has a:

R, b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7.

And a powerchord is R+5, not b5.

So, what you could do is just lower the 5th note and make it a D/b5, instead of a D5. Get it?
Locrian is the only degree with a diminished 5th.

Edit:
OHH, and (D) is just a note. A powerchord is called X5, because it's the root and the fith note.

plus, in your minor progression, the F# is the diminished degree.
So it will be a F#/b5 chord. Which is a diminished chord.


Edit again:
and to make you uderstand the degree stuff...

Minor is the 6th degree of major, so if you wanna use minor as root, then it will be Imin, IIdim etc. the whole progression changes.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Sep 11 2008, 03:02 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jer
post Sep 11 2008, 03:04 PM
Post #10


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.889
Joined: 3-September 08
From: Des Moines IA USA
Member No.: 5.836



So if I want to stay within the key of Emin, I technically (yes, I know anything that sounds good is fine) cant play a D5?

Even though both notes, D and A are in the Emin scale?



--------------------
My Gear

Jackson SL-1 USA Soloist
Jackson DK2M
ESP LTD MH-400
ESP LTD EC-1000
Ibanez Custom S-Series
Martin 001 Acoustic

Handmade Marshall JCM800 50watt head (with mods)
Carvin 50x2 Stereo Tube Amp
Boss GT-10 Preamp/Effects Processor
Digitech GSP-1101 Preamp/Effects Processor
Behringer FCB1010 Midi Controlled Floorboard
Behringer Dualfex EX2200
Behinger Stereo EQ
Line 6 POD with 2.3 upgrade
Line 6 Floor Board
Line 6 Spider III Practice Amp
Nady UHF Wireless


"Who will eat the decay, when the worms have lost their sight?"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kjutte
post Sep 11 2008, 03:06 PM
Post #11


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.710
Joined: 17-July 07
From: Norway
Member No.: 2.337



QUOTE (jer @ Sep 11 2008, 04:04 PM) *
So if I want to stay within the key of Emin, I technically (yes, I know anything that sounds good is fine) cant play a D5?

Even though both notes, D and A are in the Emin scale?


Read again, I made some edits to my post. then make a new question. D isn't the diminished degree of minor.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kapto
post Sep 11 2008, 03:10 PM
Post #12


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 211
Joined: 9-December 07
From: Spain
Member No.: 3.479



I recently took this lesson up http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/rhythm-gu...er-chords/which has quite a few positions of power chords. It made me think out of the box.
Maybe you have seen it maybe not . Don't know if this is what you're looking for.


--------------------
"It's a long way to the top..."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jer
post Sep 11 2008, 03:13 PM
Post #13


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.889
Joined: 3-September 08
From: Des Moines IA USA
Member No.: 5.836



I did read it again.

I was under the understanding that to play in the key of Emin you have the notes of the Emin scale to use.

So chords made up of those notes are ok as well.

Not true?



--------------------
My Gear

Jackson SL-1 USA Soloist
Jackson DK2M
ESP LTD MH-400
ESP LTD EC-1000
Ibanez Custom S-Series
Martin 001 Acoustic

Handmade Marshall JCM800 50watt head (with mods)
Carvin 50x2 Stereo Tube Amp
Boss GT-10 Preamp/Effects Processor
Digitech GSP-1101 Preamp/Effects Processor
Behringer FCB1010 Midi Controlled Floorboard
Behringer Dualfex EX2200
Behinger Stereo EQ
Line 6 POD with 2.3 upgrade
Line 6 Floor Board
Line 6 Spider III Practice Amp
Nady UHF Wireless


"Who will eat the decay, when the worms have lost their sight?"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kjutte
post Sep 11 2008, 03:16 PM
Post #14


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.710
Joined: 17-July 07
From: Norway
Member No.: 2.337



QUOTE (jer @ Sep 11 2008, 04:13 PM) *
I did read it again.

I was under the understanding that to play in the key of Emin you have the notes of the Emin scale to use.

So chords made up of those notes are ok as well.

Not true?


True, the notes ARE in the scale, but the interval between R and 5 will be different in the diminished position, because the fith note from this degree is flattened compared to all the others. Lemme upload a diagram to show you. give me a minute.

Edit:
Ok, so here you see a diagram of all the patterns in their correct order. This is Cmajor.
If you compare Ionian, the first degree here, to all the other degrees, with 1 and 5th note the the box, you'll see that ONLY the 7th, locrian, strays off the usual powerchord pattern. this is because it's the only degree with a flat5.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Sep 11 2008, 03:22 PM
Attached image(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Toroso
post Sep 11 2008, 03:17 PM
Post #15


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 653
Joined: 26-August 08
From: Kingston, TN USA
Member No.: 5.779



Hmmmmm..... mellow.gif (Cogitating on all this....)


--------------------
Live well, and live often!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jer
post Sep 11 2008, 03:19 PM
Post #16


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.889
Joined: 3-September 08
From: Des Moines IA USA
Member No.: 5.836



QUOTE (Kapto @ Sep 11 2008, 09:10 AM) *
I recently took this lesson up http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/rhythm-gu...er-chords/which has quite a few positions of power chords. It made me think out of the box.
Maybe you have seen it maybe not . Don't know if this is what you're looking for.


That shows me how to play the same powerchords I'm trying to get away from, but in not so "usual" ways.

Interesting for sure. But in the end, the same sounds that I am trying to shake up.

Thanks for the link though and trying to help me. I want to move past powerchords at times and go for something with more flavor. But in the type of music where powerchords roam free.



QUOTE (kjutte @ Sep 11 2008, 09:16 AM) *
True, the notes ARE in the scale, but the interval between R and 5 will be different in the diminished position, because the fith note from this degree is flattened compared to all the others. Lemme upload a diagram to show you. give me a minute.


I understand what you are saying.

I just dont see how playing a powerchord contining the notes of Emin, would be incorrect when playing in Emin.



--------------------
My Gear

Jackson SL-1 USA Soloist
Jackson DK2M
ESP LTD MH-400
ESP LTD EC-1000
Ibanez Custom S-Series
Martin 001 Acoustic

Handmade Marshall JCM800 50watt head (with mods)
Carvin 50x2 Stereo Tube Amp
Boss GT-10 Preamp/Effects Processor
Digitech GSP-1101 Preamp/Effects Processor
Behringer FCB1010 Midi Controlled Floorboard
Behringer Dualfex EX2200
Behinger Stereo EQ
Line 6 POD with 2.3 upgrade
Line 6 Floor Board
Line 6 Spider III Practice Amp
Nady UHF Wireless


"Who will eat the decay, when the worms have lost their sight?"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kjutte
post Sep 11 2008, 03:24 PM
Post #17


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.710
Joined: 17-July 07
From: Norway
Member No.: 2.337



QUOTE (jer @ Sep 11 2008, 04:19 PM) *
That shows me how to play the same powerchords I'm trying to get away from, but in not so "usual" ways.

Interesting for sure. But in the end, the same sounds that I am trying to shake up.

Thanks for the link though and trying to help me. I want to move past powerchords at times and go for something with more flavor. But in the type of music where powerchords roam free.





I understand what you are saying.

I just dont see how playing a powerchord contining the notes of Emin, would be incorrect when playing in Emin.


It's not incorrect!
What I'm saying is that you will only get 6 powerchords out of the diatonic scale, because the 7th mode is diminished. Rb5, instead of R5. Look at the diagram I editted into my last post.

And a powerchord is just two notes in this context, don't forget that. they HAVE to be degreeroot+5, or else it's no powerchord. that's what I'm trying tot ell you.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Sep 11 2008, 03:25 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jer
post Sep 11 2008, 03:36 PM
Post #18


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.889
Joined: 3-September 08
From: Des Moines IA USA
Member No.: 5.836



OK.

Let me re-word the lesson then.

QUOTE
I want to find alternatives to the standard powerchord shape. What I normally do is fall back on playing this shape:

----------
----------
----------
----------
---4------
---2------

With the bottom note on the root.

In the key of Emin I'd play that shape on these roots.

E
F#
G
A
B
C
D

I know doing this keeps me in key since I'm only playing the notes of the Emin scale.

What other chords can I use to "flavor up" chord patterns found in most rock/metal?

I know that full open "cowboy chords" don't sound right with higher gain applied. They tend to get very cloudy and garbly.


Thanks for the help!!!


--------------------
My Gear

Jackson SL-1 USA Soloist
Jackson DK2M
ESP LTD MH-400
ESP LTD EC-1000
Ibanez Custom S-Series
Martin 001 Acoustic

Handmade Marshall JCM800 50watt head (with mods)
Carvin 50x2 Stereo Tube Amp
Boss GT-10 Preamp/Effects Processor
Digitech GSP-1101 Preamp/Effects Processor
Behringer FCB1010 Midi Controlled Floorboard
Behringer Dualfex EX2200
Behinger Stereo EQ
Line 6 POD with 2.3 upgrade
Line 6 Floor Board
Line 6 Spider III Practice Amp
Nady UHF Wireless


"Who will eat the decay, when the worms have lost their sight?"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kjutte
post Sep 11 2008, 03:38 PM
Post #19


GMC:er
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 1.710
Joined: 17-July 07
From: Norway
Member No.: 2.337



QUOTE (jer @ Sep 11 2008, 04:36 PM) *
OK.

Let me re-word the lesson then.



Thanks for the help!!!


Easy question. Add more than just R and 5th.
For example, you can add octaves to your powerchords, meaning R 5 8 13.

Edit:
Muris has a lesson like this btw.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Sep 11 2008, 03:39 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Sep 11 2008, 06:07 PM
Post #20


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



I suggest learning a catchy melody and add fifths to the notes from your melody, this way you will make a nice powerchord progression to work around.


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Fast ReplyReply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 21st October 2014 - 09:46 AM