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> Does Technique Limit Expression?, what does everybody think?
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post Dec 1 2008, 02:12 AM
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Allan Holdsworth and Frank Gambale are gods lol. They are inhuman biggrin.gif


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post Dec 1 2008, 02:23 AM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Dec 1 2008, 02:11 AM) *
Well I certainly don't know what he hears in his head mate, let alone what alternate picked lines sound for him anyway. I don't even know if I ever think about alternate picking runs in that way. Technique is just something that doesn't cross my mind a lot when playing. The reason Allan doesn't uses alternate is unknown to me, it could be anything really. Maybe he can alternate pick but he doesn't or maybe he didn't practiced and played with this technique a lot, so he doesn't use it while playing, you know what I mean?
About a conscious decision, my guess is that he doesn't really think what techniques he will use, he just use whatever he finds most suitable to expresses himself.


Thanks for the response Ivan!! When I am improvising on my own I never alternate pick, but I think it is because I can't not because I don't want to. I think you are right that these players haven't focused on picking techniques much but I don't know. When I see someone like Muris, Emir or Jose who can seemingly do any technique it is easy for me to believe that they truly chose to alternate pick a line over playing it legato because they wanted the sound of one over the other. But when I see players like Holdsworth, Satch or Garsed I wonder if they play the way they do because they are limited in what techniques they can do or if they truly just want to play everything legato. Interesting debate anyways. laugh.gif laugh.gif

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FrankW
post Dec 1 2008, 02:28 AM
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I think that when you consider the playing level of players like Holdsworth and Garsed, it's just a matter of choice. I think they prefer the smoother legato sound as it suits their guitar style. If they wanted to use other techniques, I'm sure they could if it suited them.
Does that mean that right at this moment they could play staccato as well as they play legato? I couldn't say. But considering the genius of their level of playing, I don't think it would take too long to develope any technique they so desired.
I've seen John Petrucci demonstrate incredible legato technique, even though he obviously prefers the more staccato effect.
I'd be happy being good at one technique, whatever it is. smile.gif
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lcsdds
post Dec 1 2008, 02:41 AM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Dec 1 2008, 02:28 AM) *
.
I'd be happy being good at one technique, whatever it is. smile.gif



Amen to that!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

One thing that got me thinking about this topic was an interview I read with Greg Howe. He said that his "hammer-on from nowhere" technique came about because he didn't want to spend the time required to develop his alternate picking technique so he use this technique as an alternative. He said he would love to alternate pick like Paul Gilbert but didn't want to spend the time Paul Gilbert spent to develop it. It seems to me that anybody who can alternate pick well spent TONS of time to develop it.

Here is a link to the article.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summa...86-31897531_ITM


Monte

This post has been edited by lcsdds: Dec 1 2008, 02:44 AM
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FrankW
post Dec 1 2008, 02:52 AM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 1 2008, 02:41 AM) *
Amen to that!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

One thing that got me thinking about this topic was an interview I read with Greg Howe. He said that his "hammer-on from nowhere" technique came about because he didn't want to spend the time required to develop his alternate picking technique so he use this technique as an alternative. He said he would love to alternate pick like Paul Gilbert but didn't want to spend the time Paul Gilbert spent to develop it. It seems to me that anybody who can alternate pick well spent TONS of time to develop it.

Here is a link to the article.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summa...86-31897531_ITM


Monte


I read the same article. Greg Howe is another monster! If you've heard any of his older stuff, you've heard a developed picking hand for sure. I do notice that his style has evolved to a more legato/finger tapping one interspersed with monster picking. His style has progressed from neo-classical and blues-based shred to fusion. I love that guy. I wonder how many guitar players can alternate pick like Paul Gilbert. All these monsters have their individual strengths. They're all great. smile.gif
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Resurrection
post Dec 1 2008, 08:36 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Dec 1 2008, 01:04 AM) *
Holdsworth is an interestng example - he has very deliberately set out to get the sound he has, not least because he never liked the sound of guitar, the story is that he always wanted to be a trumpeter (or so I heard, maybe I got the instrument wrong!). Holdsworth has a vision of the sound he wants to make and bends all of his technique to get there - that is a good lesson to learn, he is workimg from the sound back, not from the technique forward.


When I heard the story, it was the saxophone that Holdsworth was trying to emulate - not that it changes the point that was being made. In addition to crazy legato, he also gets involved in the creative use of techniques like volume swells to change the usual attack that you hear on a picked string. Such an innovative guy!


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Noangels
post Dec 1 2008, 09:10 AM
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Brett Garsed normaly picks the 1st two notes on any 3 note per string(or 4!)line he plays,its a system that works very well for him.His use of fingers on pick hand for runs and arps works for him too,but I prefer the tone of the pick

Bretts a very dynamic player as he can bring the pick into the licks unlike Holdsworth who is godly in his lines but lacks dynamics(imo)that other world class players have

Paul Gilbert is another monster player with dynamic playing,and chops galore-I saw his band recently playing near me and he never hit a wrong note all night!
The thing with paul is he is a very scaler player and his practise sessions over the years have shaped his sound with his 3 note per string boxes all over the neck.I love his playing to death but (imo)a Greg Howe/garsed/holdsworth fusion voice would be a great addition to his style,likeways those other players could do with his distinct playing chops in their vocab

also a side note here.A lot of great pickers out there can legato just as well.Thier left hands are already forming the shapes over the neck so they can ease off the pick any time they want and still sound great.Now the Legato players havnt got there picking hands into sync so they cant add that tone to their playing.

The new breed of players coming out today do it all as the technical bar has risen

This post has been edited by Noangels: Dec 1 2008, 09:16 AM


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Muris Varajic
post Dec 1 2008, 11:47 AM
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That's pretty interesting list of players you pulled out Monte!
All of them are top class players but somehow devoted
to only one or maybe 2 techniques in general.
But I don't think it's limitation at all,
those guys have their own sound signatures
and techniques they use most of the time
have a very important roll in that.
Now,if you're looking for technique versatile players
then those guys you mentioned are surely not one of those
but on the other hand you can recognize them very easily
cause techniques they use give them that special
and unique sound. smile.gif


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post Dec 1 2008, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE (Noangels @ Dec 1 2008, 12:10 AM) *
Brett Garsed normaly picks the 1st two notes on any 3 note per string(or 4!)line he plays,its a system that works very well for him.His use of fingers on pick hand for runs and arps works for him too,but I prefer the tone of the pick

Bretts a very dynamic player as he can bring the pick into the licks unlike Holdsworth who is godly in his lines but lacks dynamics(imo)that other world class players have

Paul Gilbert is another monster player with dynamic playing,and chops galore-I saw his band recently playing near me and he never hit a wrong note all night!
The thing with paul is he is a very scaler player and his practise sessions over the years have shaped his sound with his 3 note per string boxes all over the neck.I love his playing to death but (imo)a Greg Howe/garsed/holdsworth fusion voice would be a great addition to his style,likeways those other players could do with his distinct playing chops in their vocab

also a side note here.A lot of great pickers out there can legato just as well.Thier left hands are already forming the shapes over the neck so they can ease off the pick any time they want and still sound great.Now the Legato players havnt got there picking hands into sync so they cant add that tone to their playing.

The new breed of players coming out today do it all as the technical bar has risen



That is true. I mean I dont really think technique limits expression, but then again I dont really think you Need great technique to be a great musician. Regardless of some of these "Legato/Economy" Monsters, like others said they can probably still play other techniques just aswell. It really all flows back to what kind of sound you want. Agressive and Articulate? Your thinking a Paul Gilbert type sound. Which is funny because he wasnt a very good picker for awhile. Which is why you see him incorporating alot of hammer-ons and pull-offs in his speedy runs. Paul openly says that he developed his Legato technique first. Why? He wasnt a very good picker ! He says that he was pretty much practicing Alt. Picking wrong for about 8 years. He also used alot of hammer-ons and pulloffs to help achieve that fast sound he was looking for. We have to keep in mind though, hes been playing for about 30 years. To be as technically precise as he is, is a feat that isnt accomplished overnight.

And as for other players ( Howe, Holds, Garsed). There not limited. They just express based on the sounds that there looking for out of the instrument.


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lcsdds
post Dec 1 2008, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Dec 1 2008, 02:44 PM) *
Paul openly says that he developed his Legato technique first. Why? He wasnt a very good picker ! He says that he was pretty much practicing Alt. Picking wrong for about 8 years.


What was he doing wrong in his alternate picking practice?
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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 1 2008, 03:36 PM
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It all comes down to what your personal style and taste is.
There is many versatile musicians that can play lots of styles with lots of different techniques. Guthrie Govan is one of them for example.
Now , is there any way we could compare Guthrie with Holdsworth ?
I don't think so. Totally different guys, Holdsworth is creator of rock fusion style with jazz elements in a sense and his legato technique with some "weird" harmonies is just out of this world.

Again, comes down to what you are working on. I am assuming Alan played a lot of legato and just that and it grew into his playing so much that he created his original voice in music with that technique.

Techniques should be just tools to help you express yourself. Nothing more nothing less.
Original players restrict them selves to couple of techniques and do it really well. That way it becomes easier for listener to recognize their voice in music and immediately know who they are listening to.
Of course Sound as well as Phrasing/Rhythm/Time feel plays another important role here along with melodic choices player makes.

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Jose Mena
post Dec 1 2008, 03:41 PM
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I guess you simply choose not to develop a certain technique because you are not interested, I guess lcdds is wondering if he should develop his alternate picking, or simply concentrate on the technique he already dominates.


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Muris Varajic
post Dec 1 2008, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE (Jose Mena @ Dec 1 2008, 03:41 PM) *
I guess you simply choose not to develop a certain technique because you are not interested, I guess lcdds is wondering if he should develop his alternate picking, or simply concentrate on the technique he already dominates.


Developing by all means,
latter on it's easy to throw something away if you REALLY don't need it. smile.gif


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post Dec 1 2008, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (Jose Mena @ Dec 1 2008, 03:41 PM) *
I guess you simply choose not to develop a certain technique because you are not interested, I guess lcdds is wondering if he should develop his alternate picking, or simply concentrate on the technique he already dominates.


I think you are right on the money Jose!! I think I really asking myself if I don't develop my alternate picking because I don't like the sound or is it that I don't want to spend the time to do it ?


QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Dec 1 2008, 03:45 PM) *
Developing by all means,
latter on it's easy to throw something away if you REALLY don't need it. smile.gif


This is probably a good idea. I think I am going to commit to develop a decent alternate picking technique and see where it takes me. Thanks for the input everybody!!

Monte
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post Dec 1 2008, 03:52 PM
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You should develop alternate but again depends until what level you want to develop it !
My opinion is you should have grasps of as many techniques as possible. In your case alternate is your spot... So I would practice until I could play 16th notes at 100 bpm for example and stop there - if I don't like the sound of that technique I would leave it aside and work to perfection legato economy harmonics whatever is the sound you are aiming for.


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lcsdds
post Dec 1 2008, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Dec 1 2008, 03:52 PM) *
You should develop alternate but again depends until what level you want to develop it !
My opinion is you should have grasps of as many techniques as possible. In your case alternate is your spot... So I would practice until I could play 16th notes at 100 bpm for example and stop there - if I don't like the sound of that technique I would leave it aside and work to perfection legato economy harmonics whatever is the sound you are aiming for.



That is good advice Pedja!! I actually can do this, I guess I am wondering if I should take it to the next level or not. I think I am going to commit to develop it as much as possible this next year and see where it takes me. Thanks for the advice.

Monte
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post Dec 1 2008, 05:54 PM
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Great topic Monte.

Reading all posts now I wonder a few things. All the guys you mention are true masters and what I think is most important is that they create great music in their own styles. In my case thats why I am a member of GMC , I want to create gret music, in order to do that I need to have a good and strong technique. Now reading all of your posts I wonder , should I concentrate on one techinque more tahn another. Im a beginner so I really have a long way to have a decent alternate picking, legato, sweeping, hybrif picking etc.....

I think it really depends on the spot you are at the moment , I really want to focus on fusion , I want to have a very smooth sound , but if at this moment I only concentrate les's on legato and hybrid picking , I think Im going to have an unbalanced playing in the future , another thing it would be if a this moment my techinque were very strong in all fields , and I would like to develope a smoother sound.

So my conclusion is , if you are a beginner like me , firts concentrate on developing a strong techinque , when you reach that, go for your favourite one.

After reading my post, I said a lot of things and said nothing at the same time, anyway just wanted to share my point of view.


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post Dec 1 2008, 09:15 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 1 2008, 06:35 AM) *
What was he doing wrong in his alternate picking practice?


The way he was holding the pick, and the way he was attacking the string.

QUOTE (coffeeman @ Dec 1 2008, 08:54 AM) *
Great topic Monte.

Reading all posts now I wonder a few things. All the guys you mention are true masters and what I think is most important is that they create great music in their own styles. In my case thats why I am a member of GMC , I want to create gret music, in order to do that I need to have a good and strong technique. Now reading all of your posts I wonder , should I concentrate on one techinque more tahn another. Im a beginner so I really have a long way to have a decent alternate picking, legato, sweeping, hybrif picking etc.....

I think it really depends on the spot you are at the moment , I really want to focus on fusion , I want to have a very smooth sound , but if at this moment I only concentrate les's on legato and hybrid picking , I think Im going to have an unbalanced playing in the future , another thing it would be if a this moment my techinque were very strong in all fields , and I would like to develope a smoother sound.

So my conclusion is , if you are a beginner like me , firts concentrate on developing a strong techinque , when you reach that, go for your favourite one.

After reading my post, I said a lot of things and said nothing at the same time, anyway just wanted to share my point of view.



You actually said alot, and I enjoyed the post smile.gif

I know what you mean and I do think at a certain point Brett Garsed said " Well I have a basic foundation in alot of techniques, but I want to be able to focus on Legato for a smooth sound, and focus on Hybrid picking to add some flavor to my runs.

However if there are any 2 Techniques that are the MOST IMPORTANT Imo, It would be Bending and Vibrato.

Gary Moore can play one note, and you know its him.
That is really something amazing.

B.B King can play one quick Bending Lick,
And you know its him.

Of course that can be obtained with every other technique. But I do feel they are by far the most important.


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post Dec 1 2008, 09:45 PM
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QUOTE (coffeeman @ Dec 1 2008, 01:54 PM) *
Great topic Monte.

Reading all posts now I wonder a few things. All the guys you mention are true masters and what I think is most important is that they create great music in their own styles. In my case thats why I am a member of GMC , I want to create gret music, in order to do that I need to have a good and strong technique. Now reading all of your posts I wonder , should I concentrate on one techinque more tahn another. Im a beginner so I really have a long way to have a decent alternate picking, legato, sweeping, hybrif picking etc.....

I think it really depends on the spot you are at the moment , I really want to focus on fusion , I want to have a very smooth sound , but if at this moment I only concentrate les's on legato and hybrid picking , I think Im going to have an unbalanced playing in the future , another thing it would be if a this moment my techinque were very strong in all fields , and I would like to develope a smoother sound.

So my conclusion is , if you are a beginner like me , firts concentrate on developing a strong techinque , when you reach that, go for your favourite one.

After reading my post, I said a lot of things and said nothing at the same time, anyway just wanted to share my point of view.


well, I think there´re more than one way to reach that goal: create great , music/songs.
even if you are perfect on your techniques, that not ensure you can create great songs

one point of view could be: if you play many techniques in a high level you can use all your technical resources in your guitar composition. (solos-riffes) but what really give you awesome results is the song or piece you compose.
that´s what is behind Satriani, Holdsworth, even VAI.
they are not only awesome guitar players.

great thread!!!


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post Dec 1 2008, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE (Resurrection @ Dec 1 2008, 02:36 AM) *
When I heard the story, it was the saxophone that Holdsworth was trying to emulate - not that it changes the point that was being made. In addition to crazy legato, he also gets involved in the creative use of techniques like volume swells to change the usual attack that you hear on a picked string. Such an innovative guy!


Yes, Sax, that was it - sorry!


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