Harmonic Minor Scale. Options

[Jesse]

I really enjoy neo classical , and im interested in Yngwie and such too! In neo-clas, they use the Harmonic Minor Scale alot! So my question is. What' s the formula for the harmonic Minor Scale? E.X. For Major scale it is 2212221 .

Thanks!

[Disturbed21]

I really enjoy neo classical , and im interested in Yngwie and such too! In neo-clas, they use the Harmonic Minor Scale alot! So my question is. What' s the formula for the harmonic Minor Scale? E.X. For Major scale it is 2212221 .

Thanks!

I'm pretty sure it's 2122131

[Rated Htr]

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...?showtopic=8244

[Pedja Simovic]

Interesting , you guys are using half steps as formula - haven't seen that in a while !

Try like this : 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 (8)
These are all the notes in the scale related to Root of the scale.

1 = Root
2 = Major 2nd
b3= Minor 3rd
4= Perfect 4th
5= Perfect 5th
b6= Minor 6th
7 = Major 7th
8= Octave

That should help you for future scales and interval study

[Emir Hot]

This is a great scale. Its 5th mode is called Phrygian Dominant - no neoclassical solo without this one I also use its 4th mode a lot, it is called Dorian #4. Somebody calls it Hungarian Minor and it sounds very eastern.

[wrk]

This is a great scale. Its 5th mode is called Phrygian Dominant - no neoclassical solo without this one I also use its 4th mode a lot, it is called Dorian #4. Somebody calls it Hungarian Minor and it sounds very eastern.

Hi Emir,

I do a lot of "paperwork" lately to understand the different modes of major and minor scales and there differences and i wanted to check back if i understood this above right.

Based on the A harmonic minor scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G# (raised 7 of natural minor)

The 5th mode: E, F, G#, A, B, C, D is called Phrygian Dominant, because it is similar to Phrygian mode (r, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7) but has a raised 3rd (major 3rd) instead of minor 3rd.

The 4th mode : D, E, F, G#, A, B, C is similar to dorian mode (r, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) but has a raised 4th instead of a perfect 4th.

Is this more or less correct?

[Fsgdjv]

Hi Emir,

I do a lot of "paperwork" lately to understand the different modes of major and minor scales and there differences and i wanted to check back if i understood this above right.

Based on the A harmonic minor scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G# (raised 7 of natural minor)

The 5th mode: E, F, G#, A, B, C, D is called Phrygian Dominant, because it is similar to Phrygian mode (r, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7) but has a raised 3rd (major 3rd) instead of minor 3rd.

The 4th mode : D, E, F, G#, A, B, C is similar to dorian mode (r, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) but has a raised 4th instead of a perfect 4th.

Is this more or less correct?

I'm not emir, but that is most definetly correct.

[Pedja Simovic]

Great observation Andy, you are on the right track there

[berko]

Interesting , you guys are using half steps as formula - haven't seen that in a while !

Well, Andrew uses this approach a lot on his theory board - but as 1st approach I think it's quite useful

However I got confused a bit by the hungarian minor mode:

- according to Emir it's the same as the Dorian #4 (4th mode of the basic harmonic minor), just given a different name

- in Ramiro's exotic scale list the exact same name (Hungarian minor) is applied to this scale: C D Eb F# G Ab B (which has 2 other different notes modified)

- in my Hungarian language theory book it's defined as a harmonic minor with a raised 4th (#4)

So the Dorian #4 has a raised 4th but thats the raised seven of the basic harmonic minor. According to the hungarian theory book: other than the raised seven the Hungarian minor has a raised 4th (again). If we are looking at the A harmonic minor this 4th note in Ramiro's chart would be the D# (enharmonic of Eb), but Ramiro has an extra F# too (so his scale is like a melodic minor with an extra raised 4th).

Am I correct when thinking this way? Or is this just another name-confusion when we use different names for different scales according to different approaches (Ramiro did mention this chaotic naming system in his new scale lesson...)
So is it correct to name this scale that way and vice versa?

At this particular example the issue is about the raised 4th. So according to this, the simple Dorian with a raised 4th as well as the harmonic and the melodic minors with a raised 4th can be considered as Hungarian minors...

This post has been edited by berko: Jan 5 2009, 12:57 PM

[wrk]

Thanks Fsgdjv and Pedja ... good to get confirmation sometimes.


@ berko : hm true, thats confusing. I guess that the name "Hungarian minor" is maybe not that clearly defined, but if i get this right, they have in common a raised 4th on a minor scale, means, the step between the minor 3rd and the augmented 4th has 3 half-tone steps, what creates of course a specific sound. Interesting point .. maybe a pro can explain this better

[Pedja Simovic]

@Berko

Hungarian minor is not the same scale as Dorian #4. Dorian #4 is 4th mode of Harmonic minor scale and it has following formula 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7 8
Hungarian minor is like you mentioned and Ramiro said, Harmonic minor scale with raised 4th scale degree.
Its important to mention that Hungarian minor is scale on its own and fits in the exotic type scales (standard scales are major, natural harmonic and melodic minor - everything else is exotic
So for Hungarian minor you get now 1 2 b3 #4 5 b6 7 8 !

Lots of cool half steps in Hungarian minor, very gypsy sounding scale and beautiful to use when least expected

Hope that works out for you Berko


Edit : Hungarian minor is also known as Gypsy minor

This post has been edited by Pedja Simovic: Jan 5 2009, 01:32 PM

[berko]

Thanks Pedja. So it's not the raised 4th issue then. And the Hungarian/Gypsy scale is considered to be "exotic" and a separate scale. (IMO the Gypsy scale could be a more appropriate name because Hungarian folk music is one the purest pentatonic stuff ever. More likely the Gypsy immigration brought this oriental feel with itself from the east).

Still, Ramiro's version is different (found in the exotic scale list on his board and also in his 101 exotic scale lesson 6th video where hungarian/gypsy is mentioned as the 4th relative mode of the neapolitan minor scale). I checked it again. I said in the previous post that it's like a melodic minor type of minor with a raised 4th. It's not, according to Ramiro it's an Aeolian (natural minor) mode with a raised 4th...

So even though I've known this scale as separate (and you also said this and I'll believe you), maybe a this Hungarian/gypsy kind of feel to a scale can be considered as more general. As wrk said, the minor 3rd and augmented 4th bares a 3 semitone gap which emphasizes the main characteristic of the scale. (Actually it completely alters even the natural minor scale 2122122 to 2131122 if counting semitones).

So I'm not saying that either your or Ramiro (or Ramiro's theory book) are wrong, but we are not talking about the same scale.

Should I stay with the classical term that Hun. minor is a harmonic minor with a raised 4th - and then when it is said to be natural minor (or even a melodic) minor with a raised 4th then that's just because the raised 4th is important? In Ramiros video lesson the 4th mode of the Neapolitan minor still bares the Hungarian minor feel but there the harmonic minor does not fit, but it doesn't seem to be important either...

thanks in advance

[Pedja Simovic]

@Berko

Lots of information
As I suggested harmonic minor with raised 4th is gypsy minor.

Let me do some research , I might even scan some pages from books and notes I have from Berklee and upload them here - that could be very useful I hope

For now Dorian #4 is 4th mode of Harmonic minor.
Gypsy minor is scale by itself and its harmonic minor with raised 4th scale degree

[berko]

@Berko

Lots of information
As I suggested harmonic minor with raised 4th is gypsy minor.

Let me do some research , I might even scan some pages from books and notes I have from Berklee and upload them here - that could be very useful I hope

For now Dorian #4 is 4th mode of Harmonic minor.
Gypsy minor is scale by itself and its harmonic minor with raised 4th scale degree

So far so good! Thanks Pedja, you're my man!

Lots of names and approaches towards scales, I think I'm driving it over a bit. For me these exotic scales are pure abstractions yet, it helps me to understand the standard ones better. I'm not planning to improvise in a neapolitan major in the near future ... although it wouldn't do any harm as far as I know...

cheers

[Emir Hot]

Sorry guys I lost this topic on my "new posts" list. Pedja explained it well. A little tip about Dorian and Minor scale would help. Every time you hear "Dorian" you should know that there is natural 6th *Dorian strongest note". Dorian is also a minor scale because it has minor 3rd but if you say Dorian it must have natural 6th while natural or harmonic minor scales have b6 in the formula.

[Ramiro Delforte]

Here's a Wiki entry about the scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_minor_scale.
It has the same notes that I took from the Befumo book.
Here's the Mathias Eklundh site and it has the same notes http://www.freakguitar.com/hungarianmin.html.
And in this link http://jguitar.com/scale/C/Hungarian%20Gypsy they named as Pedja said but the notes are the same.

[IDontWantMyUsern...]

Will for example harmonic minor with an augmented fourth also have the possibility of being named Harmonic Minor #4?
Just want to see if I got everything right




This post has been edited by IDontWantMyUsername: Jan 5 2009, 06:03 PM

[Pedja Simovic]

Will for example harmonic minor with an augmented fourth also have the possibility of being named Harmonic Minor #4?
Just want to see if I got everything right

Yes !
You can call it Gypsy Minor , Harmonic minor #4 or Harmonic minor with augmented 4th !

Either of these works and end up being the same thing

Here's a Wiki entry about the scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_minor_scale.
It has the same notes that I took from the Befumo book.
Here's the Mathias Eklundh site and it has the same notes http://www.freakguitar.com/hungarianmin.html.
And in this link http://jguitar.com/scale/C/Hungarian%20Gypsy they named as Pedja said but the notes are the same.

Awesome links Ramiro !
I was about to post Wiki entry and another website.

This pretty much clears all the clouds around the scales.

Hungarian minor = Gypsy minor = Harmonic minor #4 = Harmonic minor with augmented 4th !

Hope I didn't leave any term out