Chord Substitution? Options

[Frederik]

How does it work? i've heard the term, but i dont understand how other chords can sound like another chord in a cadense (and which chords, that u can substitute)
Can anybody explain to me how this works, and how i can use it? (pedja ?)

-frederik

[Jerry Arcidiacon...]

Usually you can substitute a chord with another one which shares some common notes with the first one.
One of the most used substitution is the tritone substitution.
Let's look at the classic G7 - Cmaj7 progression.
You have a tritone in G7 - B and F.
There's another chord which share the same tritone interval, the Db7 chord.
Here you have F and Cb. Cb is the same sound of B, just spelled different - enharmonically.

So, try to play Db7 Cmaj7 instead of G7 Cmaj7 and you'll get the feel of this substitution.

I'll do a lesson about this topic in my Jazz Notes series.

[Frederik]

Usually you can substitute a chord with another one which shares some common notes with the first one.
One of the most used substitution is the tritone substitution.
Let's look at the classic G7 - Cmaj7 progression.
You have a tritone in G7 - B and F.
There's another chord which share the same tritone interval, the Db7 chord.
Here you have F and Cb. Cb is the same sound of B, just spelled different - enharmonically.

So, try to play Db7 Cmaj7 instead of G7 Cmaj7 and you'll get the feel of this substitution.

I'll do a lesson about this topic in my Jazz Notes series.

Thanks for the answer
what are the other substitutions besides tritone resolving to major third.
and most importantly what effect does the substitution give ?

[Jerry Arcidiacon...]

Well, it depends from context.
As example if you're in the key of C major and you have a Cmaj7 chord - which is C-E-G-B - you can substitute it with a Em7 chord - E-G-B-D - or an Am7 chord - A-C-E-G.
Notice the common notes between these chords. The substitution also depends on what the melody is doing.

You can substitute also a dominanth chord with a diminished chord.
As example take a look at the C7 chord which is C-E-G-Bb.
If you extend this chord with a b9 you have C-E-G-Bb-Db, called C7b9, often used to resolve in a minor key.
Leaving out the root you have a E diminished seventh chord, a good substitution for the C7b9.

About the effect... I think you should sit down on the piano and experiment to get the best answer!
Otherwise, it's like talking about wines

[Frederik]

Well, it depends from context.
As example if you're in the key of C major and you have a Cmaj7 chord - which is C-E-G-B - you can substitute it with a Em7 chord - E-G-B-D - or an Am7 chord - A-C-E-G.
Notice the common notes between these chords. The substitution also depends on what the melody is doing.

You can substitute also a dominanth chord with a diminished chord.
As example take a look at the C7 chord which is C-E-G-Bb.
If you extend this chord with a b9 you have C-E-G-Bb-Db, called C7b9, often used to resolve in a minor key.
Leaving out the root you have a E diminished seventh chord, a good substitution for the C7b9.

About the effect... I think you should sit down on the piano and experiment to get the best answer!
Otherwise, it's like talking about wines

I will do so i think i get the pricipal, but i'll have to experiment with the harmonic effect. . im very interested in cadences ATM especially cadences with non diatonic notes/chords

[Ramiro Delforte]

There are a lot of chord substitutions but I like some easy ones that Joe Pass gives in his clinic "Jazz solo guitar".

He takes a typical turnaround: VI-II-V-I = Am7-Dm7-G7-C

First you can add some tensions: Am7,13-Dm7,9-G7#9-C
Then you can make them dominants A7-D7-G7-C
Then replace in a way that you get all dominants: E7-Bb7-D7-G7-C (the E replaces the I -C- but it's in the beginning to show how the voices conduct themselves)
Then you can get this variation: B7-Bb7-A7-Ab7-G7-C (it's like the previous one but the bass line is chromatic while the upper voices are the same)
Another variation is: E7-Eb7-D7-Db7-C (it's like the previous one but this time the chromati bass line is different)

Those are just some of the substitutions that Joe passes on the video, there are a few more.

[Frederik]

Sweet ramiro:)

[kjutte]

There are a lot of chord substitutions but I like some easy ones that Joe Pass gives in his clinic "Jazz solo guitar".

He takes a typical turnaround: VI-II-V-I = Am7-Dm7-G7-C

First you can add some tensions: Am7,13-Dm7,9-G7#9-C
Then you can make them dominants A7-D7-G7-C
Then replace in a way that you get all dominants: E7-Bb7-D7-G7-C (the E replaces the I -C- but it's in the beginning to show how the voices conduct themselves)
Then you can get this variation: B7-Bb7-A7-Ab7-G7-C (it's like the previous one but the bass line is chromatic while the upper voices are the same)
Another variation is: E7-Eb7-D7-Db7-C (it's like the previous one but this time the chromati bass line is different)

Those are just some of the substitutions that Joe passes on the video, there are a few more.

Can you explain this a bit deeper, Ramiro?
It's too vague, I don't understand how you progress!

Thanks

[Pedja Simovic]

How does it work? i've heard the term, but i dont understand how other chords can sound like another chord in a cadense (and which chords, that u can substitute)
Can anybody explain to me how this works, and how i can use it? (pedja ?)

-frederik

Frederik I just saw this thread !

I will help you no worries man


You know your major scale harmony ? In any major scale Major chords are on scale degrees I IV V, minors on II III VI and Diminished is on 7th scale degree. Then when you have 4 part harmony in major scale you end up with Major 7th chords on I and IV , Dominant 7th on V, Minor 7th on II III and VI and finally MINOR 7b5 on VII scale degree.

First step towards chord substitution is DIATONIC SUBSTITUTION. This means that you have to use chords that already exist withing the scale ! In order to do this properly, you need to know what function does each chord have in the scale !
Here comes the best part ! ! !

There is only 3 different functions within major harmony/scale.
- TONIC
- Subdominant
- Dominant

Tonic functioning chords are one that give the strongest sound of the key ! That means chords that contain 1 3 5 of the TONIC CHORD.
So if we have C major, C majors 1 3 5 is C E and G notes. By definition, Tonic type chord should have either all of these notes in it , or most of them !
When we go trough elimination process, we find out that Tonic chords in any major scale lie on degrees I III and VI !!!
Lets look at C major scale and find those chords.
I = C major chord = C E G = PERFECT !
III = E minor chord = E G B = Not so perfect , it has 3 and 5 but 1 is missing which is very important note (Landing note on the tonic chord!). So this is a bit weaker choice as tonic chord.
VI = A minor chord = A C E = VERY GOOD ! A is 6, but C and E are 1 and 3 of the key - very strong and important melodic resting notes to determine sound of the key !

What is the lesson here now ?

Lets say you are in C major, and you have C major chord or C major7 chord or 9 etc, what can you substitute that chord with ?
Answer is above ! Any sort of A minor or E minor chord including their tensions ( A min791113, E min71113 etc).
Hope that helps you with diatonic substitution already !


Lets talk about Sub dominant function now !

- Sub dominant functioning chords are the ones that contain 6th scale degree in them mostly but can contain also 4th scale degree ! In C major scale those are chords that have A and F notes in them.

The beauty of Sub dominant chords is to sound "little bit out" compared to Tonic type chords. They are very much needed to keep cadences happening because otherwise we end up with Tonic and Dominant chords !
Lets find out what chords in major scale are Sub dominant functioning chords.
II scale degree is D minor = D F A - uses 2 4 and 6. As I said 6 is needed but 4 helps as well. Great !
IV scale degree is F major = F A C = uses 4 6 and 1. Very strong chord once again as it uses 4 and 6 but also keeps the sound of the key recognizable with 1 in it. Perfect !


So every time from now on when you see II chord , you can substitute it with IV chord and vice versa ! Thats your diatonic substitution option for Sub dominant type chords !


Final area - Dominant type function.


Dominant function chords need to have 4 and 7 from major key in them in order to qualify. 7 is especially needed as it is LEADING NOTE, very unstable and has a tendency to resolve to 1. Think about B note wanting to resolve to C always when you are in C major. It also helps if chords have 2 in them as it also has tendency to move down to 1 or up to 3 (which are both TONIC TYPE FUNCTIONING NOTES AND CHORDS!).

What kind of chords have 2, 4 , 7 ?

V scale degree = G MAJOR = G B D = IT has 5 7 2 ! Perfect choice for Dominant function chord. Very unstable and wants to go to Tonic type chord mostly (C major, A minor, E minor as discussed above). It can also go to Sub dominant type chords as well (F major and D minor) but its main role is to resolve to TONIC FUNCTION chords.
VI scale degree = B diminished = B D F = It has 7 2 and 4 ! 7 is essential note as its leading into 1 which is C note in this case. I already discussed importance of 2 and 4 above. Thats another great chord right there.


So now conclusion is , whenever you have a V scale degree chord in major scale, you can substitute it with VII scale degree chord !
That goes for triads as well as for 4 note and more chords !

I hope you got that now


Final recap and layout !



Tonic type functioning chords = I III and VI

Sub dominant type functioning chords = II and IV

Dominant type functioning chords = V and VII



I just typed you chapters of books in one single post. This information should be golds worth for you. Use it wisely and start exploring Diatonic Chord Substitution before we move onto other type of things

Thanks Frederik !

Pedja

[jdriver]

Wow, I think that explanation alone should win you most helpful for this month! That should be saved somewhere.

Can you comment on substituting a 9 chord for a 7, as in a 12 bar blues in A, where you play A7, D9, E9. It sounds even more bluesy that way.

[Pedja Simovic]

Wow, I think that explanation alone should win you most helpful for this month! That should be saved somewhere.

Can you comment on substituting a 9 chord for a 7, as in a 12 bar blues in A, where you play A7, D9, E9. It sounds even more bluesy that way.

Thank you Jeff, you are too kind ! I hope Frederik will find it as helpful as you did.

Regarding Dominant 9th chords, it is basically a continuation of what I was talking about above.

Lets take A9 D9 and E9 chord. 12 bar blues in A !


First thing we need to know is where does A9 come from ? What scale are we in ?

Answer is pretty simple !
Dominant 7th chords and their extensions (9's and natural 13's) come from Major scale and are always on the V scale degree of major scale !
Now knowing this information, lets ask a logical question - Where is A9 V scale degree ?
We go down a perfect 5th from A note and we find our answer - We are in the key of D major !
D E F# G A B C# D.
D major scale from A or A mixolydian mode = A B C# D E F# G A !
A7 chord = A C# E G
A9 chord = A C# E G B !

Notice how all chords belong to key of D major or A mixolydian mode.


Now lets spice things up and relate what I just said here to my previous post regarding Dominant Function chords.

I mentioned that every time we have Dominant function chord on V scale degree , we can substitute it with VII scale degree chord !

Lets put this information to practical use and find out answer to your question !

A7 is V in D major scale.
What is VII ?
VII scale degree is (d e f# g a b C#), its C# minor 7 b 5 (4 part harmony) or C# diminished triad as 3 part harmony.

Now lets compare finally notes of A7 and C# min7b5 , all in relation to A IN THE BASS (because bass player is playing root of A chord .

A7 = A C# E G = 1 3 5 b7
C#min7b5 = C# E G B = 3 5 b7 9 !!!


What did we just notice there ?
Well C#min7b5 is actually A9 CHORD BUT WITHOUT THE ROOT !!!
There is your dominant type substitution at its best It works wonders in blues music but also in other styles (not to even mention jazz .

We don't need root ! Why ? Because bass players role is to provide it for us, and we as harmonic type players accompainists can actually play C#min7b5 and call it A9 !

Does that make sense ?

I hope it does !

Thank you for mentioning that blues example, gave me chance to demonstrate typical Diatonic Chord Substitution, in this case Dominant type function substitution.

Thanks Jeff,


Pedja

[jdriver]

"Well C#min7b5 is actually A9 CHORD BUT WITHOUT THE ROOT !!! "

Very very cool. When it all comes back around like you explained it, it's like pieces of a puzzle falling into place.

Another very important reason to substitute... it will often let you change chords quicker, as in this case of playing A7, then instead of moving to D7, you can play the D9 and you stay on the same fret, very small position change. This helps when you're like me and can't make big chord changes quickly.

This post has been edited by jdriver: May 3 2009, 08:46 PM

[Velvet Roger]

Awesome explanation Pedja, really makes life so easy when you explain things

On the same topic, I made a student lesson on Tonic Substitution, which may be helpful as well. You can find it here. Since then I now know that I have to call it substitution instead of replacement, but I meant the same thing .

[kjutte]

AWESOME POSTS pedja!

Now, both V and VII is chords with alot of tension ,I am aware.
However, what about what Ramiro said?

"First you can add some tensions: Am7,13-Dm7,9-G7#9-C
Then you can make them dominants A7-D7-G7-C"

How could all those chords become dominants?

[Pedja Simovic]

"Well C#min7b5 is actually A9 CHORD BUT WITHOUT THE ROOT !!! "

Very very cool. When it all comes back around like you explained it, it's like pieces of a puzzle falling into place.

Another very important reason to substitute... it will often let you change chords quicker, as in this case of playing A7, then instead of moving to D7, you can play the D9 and you stay on the same fret, very small position change. This helps when you're like me and can't make big chord changes quickly.

Thanks Jeff. I agree with your analysis here - A7 and D9 are very similar (E shape and A shape chords).

Awesome explanation Pedja, really makes life so easy when you explain things

On the same topic, I made a student lesson on Tonic Substitution, which may be helpful as well. You can find it here. Since then I now know that I have to call it substitution instead of replacement, but I meant the same thing .

Great Roger !
I forgot you did student lesson on that earlier on. Thanks for sharing the link with us man

AWESOME POSTS pedja!

Now, both V and VII is chords with alot of tension ,I am aware.
However, what about what Ramiro said?

"First you can add some tensions: Am7,13-Dm7,9-G7#9-C
Then you can make them dominants A7-D7-G7-C"

How could all those chords become dominants?

Well Ramiro was obviously thinking about two things

1) Add tensions to already existing chords. So thats why he said Am713 Dm9 etc
2) Change the chord quality to dominant, just keep main key center same.

This happens in Jazz or Fusion music a lot. We take A min Dmin G7 and C maj7 and change first two to dominants as well to add that tension type sounding harmony !
Thats also know as secondary dominant chords, we will get into that later - I like how you are thinking tough

[Velvet Roger]

Well Ramiro was obviously thinking about two things

1) Add tensions to already existing chords. So thats why he said Am713 Dm9 etc
2) Change the chord quality to dominant, just keep main key center same.

This happens in Jazz or Fusion music a lot. We take A min Dmin G7 and C maj7 and change first two to dominants as well to add that tension type sounding harmony !
Thats also know as secondary dominant chords, we will get into that later - I like how you are thinking tough

I thought that a secondary dominant chord situation is when you have a diatonic chord and it is preceded by its own dominant 7th chord (so a secondary 7th chord with the root a perfect 5th above the diatonic chord). E.g. If you are playing in the key of C and play a Dm chord (ii), the secondary dominant of Dm would be A7, which is not diatonic to the key of C, but because it's secondary dominant and if we after the A7 play the Dm again we remain in the key of C and do not modulate. Am I right about this?

If this is true, I don't completely follow your remark above to change the A min and Dmin to dominants. Can you maybe explain a bit further?

Thanks a lot for your help Pedja

[Pedja Simovic]

I thought that a secondary dominant chord situation is when you have a diatonic chord and it is preceded by its own dominant 7th chord (so a secondary 7th chord with the root a perfect 5th above the diatonic chord). E.g. If you are playing in the key of C and play a Dm chord (ii), the secondary dominant of Dm would be A7, which is not diatonic to the key of C, but because it's secondary dominant and if we after the A7 play the Dm again we remain in the key of C and do not modulate. Am I right about this?

If this is true, I don't completely follow your remark above to change the A min and Dmin to dominants. Can you maybe explain a bit further?

Thanks a lot for your help Pedja

Sure thing Roger

Secondary dominant chords are artificially created chords to smoothly set up diatonic scale degrees. This is the very best definition I can give you right now.

That means if you have like you said C major scale and your approach diatonic chord is Dmin, we need to approach it with A7 (dominant of D note). That can happen on any scale degree except 7th scale degree, because Diminished and Minor 7b5 chord is very unstable by nature so it is not used as resting or resolving chord !


Now more detailed answer to your question.

We had A min D min G7 and C maj7. Those are all diatonic to key of C , correct ?

Now if we put A7 D min G7 and C maj7 , we have applied secondary dominant theory.

Quick question now, what is secondary dominant chord of G7 ?
You guessed it , its D7 !

So what happens now ?

A7 to D7 to G7 to Cmaj7 !


Here we use something thats called in theory and harmony EXTENDED SECONDARY DOMINANT PATTERN !

It is very easy to spot and the basic rule is you have 2 or more dominant 7th chords that resolve up a forth or down a fifth happening one after other !

Here A7 is secondary dominant of D, D7 is secondary dominant of G , G7 is primary dominant of C. We could have continued with G7 to C7 , C7 to F7 etc. Thats extended pattern for secondary dominant chords. Hope that makes sense now.

This is used in Jazz music a lot, to bring tension to diatonic changes and spice them up with some "outside" playing.

Let me know if you have any questions!

Pedja

[Velvet Roger]

Sure thing Roger

Secondary dominant chords are artificially created chords to smoothly set up diatonic scale degrees. This is the very best definition I can give you right now.

That means if you have like you said C major scale and your approach diatonic chord is Dmin, we need to approach it with A7 (dominant of D note). That can happen on any scale degree except 7th scale degree, because Diminished and Minor 7b5 chord is very unstable by nature so it is not used as resting or resolving chord !


Now more detailed answer to your question.

We had A min D min G7 and C maj7. Those are all diatonic to key of C , correct ?

Now if we put A7 D min G7 and C maj7 , we have applied secondary dominant theory.

Quick question now, what is secondary dominant chord of G7 ?
You guessed it , its D7 !

So what happens now ?

A7 to D7 to G7 to Cmaj7 !


Here we use something thats called in theory and harmony EXTENDED SECONDARY DOMINANT PATTERN !

It is very easy to spot and the basic rule is you have 2 or more dominant 7th chords that resolve up a forth or down a fifth happening one after other !

Here A7 is secondary dominant of D, D7 is secondary dominant of G , G7 is primary dominant of C. We could have continued with G7 to C7 , C7 to F7 etc. Thats extended pattern for secondary dominant chords. Hope that makes sense now.

This is used in Jazz music a lot, to bring tension to diatonic changes and spice them up with some "outside" playing.

Let me know if you have any questions!

Pedja

Great, thanks for the explanation. It is fully clear now ...

[Pedja Simovic]

Great, thanks for the explanation. It is fully clear now ...

You welcome Roger, any time man !

[kjutte]

I understand it too now, Pedja - Thanks!