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lee
post May 7 2009, 02:00 AM
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Is the CAGED system the most efficient way to learn the major scale and its modes and chords.
I know the major.minor and pentatonic scales but would like to focus on chords and rhythm playing
for a bit.I am gonna go over the scales again also.Other than GMC I use books such as The Guitar
Grimoire scales and modes and chord and voicings.These are both great books.I know quite a few chords
also but would like to take my playing to the next level.If not the CAGED system what is the most
efficient way to learn as much as possible quick as possible.I only have about 1.5 to 2 hours a day to practice
because I have a 2 year old daughter so I want to make the best of my time.I appeciate any help on the
subject.
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tonymiro
post May 7 2009, 02:33 AM
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It's not the way I learnt the scales etc Lee but it may be the most effective visually for some since it's based around a small number of patterns and shapes keyed to specific common chords. Learn a few major chords - 5 - shapes and the CAGE system pretty much gives you the rest. From these shapes you can then move on to the scales and work out the other chords. So essentially rather than learning a lot of patterns etc you can get by with only a few.

However - and this is me personally - I think the CAGED system is limited as you learn patterns rather than relationships and what the intervals are. I learnt the notes on the neck, and then scales and intervals, and then chord construction and harmony etc. From this I can build any chord from knowing the formula for a scale and it's intervals etc. This way isn't however quick but, to me, pays off in the longer term.

Anyway - take a look at Andrew's lessons on the CAGE system on his theory sub. elsewhere on GMC.



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jdriver
post May 7 2009, 05:01 AM
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Check out the book Fretboard Logic by Bill Edwards, it's the gold standard of CAGED, and he goes quite a bit into chord relationships in book 2. Every music store has this.


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lee
post May 7 2009, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ May 6 2009, 07:33 PM) *
It's not the way I learnt the scales etc Lee but it may be the most effective visually for some since it's based around a small number of patterns and shapes keyed to specific common chords. Learn a few major chords - 5 - shapes and the CAGE system pretty much gives you the rest. From these shapes you can then move on to the scales and work out the other chords. So essentially rather than learning a lot of patterns etc you can get by with only a few.

However - and this is me personally - I think the CAGED system is limited as you learn patterns rather than relationships and what the intervals are. I learnt the notes on the neck, and then scales and intervals, and then chord construction and harmony etc. From this I can build any chord from knowing the formula for a scale and it's intervals etc. This way isn't however quick but, to me, pays off in the longer term.

Anyway - take a look at Andrew's lessons on the CAGE system on his theory sub. elsewhere on GMC.


Thanks Tony,Maybe i'll use a combo approach.
I find the Guitar Grimoire series very helpful.
These are the best books i've bought so far.

QUOTE (jdriver @ May 6 2009, 10:01 PM) *
Check out the book Fretboard Logic by Bill Edwards, it's the gold standard of CAGED, and he goes quite a bit into chord relationships in book 2. Every music store has this.



Thanks jdriver,I'll pick one up.
Have these books helped you alot?
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Ivan Milenkovic
post May 7 2009, 07:00 PM
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Your goal is to learn the whole major scale pattern over the whole neck. While you learn you divide this big pattern into several positions so you can learn it with more ease. Any way you learn you should learn it as a whole, not focusing on positions that much, at least not later when you learn them. The way I learned is using 3 note per string patterns, and although there are 7 of them, I think they are important to learn, cause there are 7 notes, and you practically cover every note of the major scale. This helps with modes a bit during that learning process, so I think the time does pays out. The 5 position CAGED system is also good place to start, but I think both methods should be covered. This way you have more directions. Sooner or later you will have to cover all the directions and combinations, so if you wanna learn, start with CAGED, and do in parallel also 3nps patterns. Bare in mind always where you are on the fretboard and try to practice same positions of both methods during one practice session. This adds to flexibility later when playing.


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Andrew Cockburn
post May 7 2009, 07:20 PM
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I agree - CAGED is a useful way of making sense of the fretboard but should not be your end goal, or even the only path you take, its part of the process to internalising the entire fretboard! Different ways of learning resonate with different people - CAGED is one of many techniques that may help you.


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lee
post May 7 2009, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ May 7 2009, 12:00 PM) *
Your goal is to learn the whole major scale pattern over the whole neck. While you learn you divide this big pattern into several positions so you can learn it with more ease. Any way you learn you should learn it as a whole, not focusing on positions that much, at least not later when you learn them. The way I learned is using 3 note per string patterns, and although there are 7 of them, I think they are important to learn, cause there are 7 notes, and you practically cover every note of the major scale. This helps with modes a bit during that learning process, so I think the time does pays out. The 5 position CAGED system is also good place to start, but I think both methods should be covered. This way you have more directions. Sooner or later you will have to cover all the directions and combinations, so if you wanna learn, start with CAGED, and do in parallel also 3nps patterns. Bare in mind always where you are on the fretboard and try to practice same positions of both methods during one practice session. This adds to flexibility later when playing.



Thanks Ivan,Thats what i'll do then.I use the 3nps method now so i have a good head start.
I'm improving everyday and you know that makes you hungry for more.I just want to make the best
of my time no matter how i learn so any suggestions you have will be much appreciated.
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lee
post May 7 2009, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ May 7 2009, 12:20 PM) *
I agree - CAGED is a useful way of making sense of the fretboard but should not be your end goal, or even the only path you take, its part of the process to internalising the entire fretboard! Different ways of learning resonate with different people - CAGED is one of many techniques that may help you.



Thanks Andrew,I'm gonna use CAGED and 3nps.
I am just looking for the most efficient method.
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jdriver
post May 8 2009, 05:19 AM
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QUOTE (lee @ May 7 2009, 08:17 AM) *
Thanks Tony,Maybe i'll use a combo approach.
I find the Guitar Grimoire series very helpful.
These are the best books i've bought so far.




Thanks jdriver,I'll pick one up.
Have these books helped you alot?


Fretboard Logic helped me greatly in the beginning and I still refer to it for various things. That book, along with Ivan's Pentatonic Workshop series, were what helped me most when starting. I think you are already beyond where I was, but as soon as I'd learned the Pentatonic I went on to Diatonic and it was easy.

I have the Grimoires, but I find them difficult to understand. Maybe later they will make more sense to me.


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I'm older now but still I hunger
For some understanding.
There's no understanding, now.
Was there ever?

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lcsdds
post May 8 2009, 05:25 AM
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Am I the only one who thinks that the CAGED method is outdated? I know Frank Gambale say this in one of his videos. It seems to me that the 3nps shapes are a lot more modern and useful. Don't mean to be negative.....just an observation. I never really learned the CAGED method though. smile.gif
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jdriver
post May 8 2009, 06:25 AM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ May 7 2009, 09:25 PM) *
Am I the only one who thinks that the CAGED method is outdated? I know Frank Gambale say this in one of his videos. It seems to me that the 3nps shapes are a lot more modern and useful. Don't mean to be negative.....just an observation. I never really learned the CAGED method though. smile.gif


I guess there are different ways of looking at it. I did not study CAGED to the extent it is possible to do so. I used it to learn how the scales follow in sequence and chords are moveable based on their shapes, and from then on I don't think about CAGED, but I know I am using what I learned from it. When I was an absolute beginner, watching the video in Fretboard Logic made it seem that getting started was not so hard, and for that I am grateful.

3nps shapes are more modern and useful for... what exactly? Certain styles of playing for sure. At this point I take comfort in the understanding I have of the "traditional" shapes, but I am not a fast player and never will be. Maybe it comes down to whichever approach resonates with the student. I know I looked at a lot of different books and lessons before I found "the path" that was right for me, and I assume it is the same with all students.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few"

Edit: Doesn't everybody out there with a video to sell claim they have a "better way?" Different, yes. Better.. eh, not always. Keep an open mind and learn Everything. wink.gif

This post has been edited by jdriver: May 8 2009, 06:29 AM


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There's no understanding, now.
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Pedja Simovic
post May 8 2009, 02:18 PM
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CAGED system is perfect way to learn things fast and have complete knowledge of fretboard.

Everything else like horizontal playing or 3 note per string patterns can be added pretty easy once you learn your CAGED system. It will be much easier to do it that way since you will know where your roots and other chord tones are in each shape. Also, if you think about it, you can focus on learning licks or transposing licks in all 5 shapes to full fill your repertoire of lines.
People who play 3 note per string approach only are very limited in soloing (predictable to say the least.

Keep up the good work with CAGED and let me know if you have any questions !


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Ivan Milenkovic
post May 8 2009, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ May 8 2009, 03:18 PM) *
CAGED system is perfect way to learn things fast and have complete knowledge of fretboard.

Everything else like horizontal playing or 3 note per string patterns can be added pretty easy once you learn your CAGED system. It will be much easier to do it that way since you will know where your roots and other chord tones are in each shape. Also, if you think about it, you can focus on learning licks or transposing licks in all 5 shapes to full fill your repertoire of lines.
People who play 3 note per string approach only are very limited in soloing (predictable to say the least.

Keep up the good work with CAGED and let me know if you have any questions !


I agree! smile.gif 3nps is not the only method available and definitely not the only one that should be rehearsed. Same goes for CAGED as well. The 2 methods can be pretty complementary, if a a good exercise system is applied. Like if in one session we play CAGED position starting from one note, it would be very useful to rehearse the 3np pattern starting from the same note as well. This gives lot more flexibility than using only one method individually. The two remaining patterns of 3nps string method (since CAGED only has 5), can be rehearsed so they match the position of the CAGED pattern that is in the nearest proximity of the 3nps pattern being done.

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: May 8 2009, 02:32 PM


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Muris Varajic
post May 8 2009, 02:32 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ May 8 2009, 03:18 PM) *
People who play 3 note per string approach only are very limited in soloing (predictable to say the least.


What about 2nps, holy pentatonics?!?!? laugh.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post May 8 2009, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ May 8 2009, 03:32 PM) *
What about 2nps, holy pentatonics?!?!? laugh.gif


Always a smart guy around laugh.gif

Those 2nps are awesome for alternate picking, but then you already know that... tongue.gif


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lee
post May 8 2009, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ May 8 2009, 07:18 AM) *
CAGED system is perfect way to learn things fast and have complete knowledge of fretboard.

Everything else like horizontal playing or 3 note per string patterns can be added pretty easy once you learn your CAGED system. It will be much easier to do it that way since you will know where your roots and other chord tones are in each shape. Also, if you think about it, you can focus on learning licks or transposing licks in all 5 shapes to full fill your repertoire of lines.
People who play 3 note per string approach only are very limited in soloing (predictable to say the least.

Keep up the good work with CAGED and let me know if you have any questions !



Thanks Pedja,I'm all about the most efficient method.I'm lookin to speed my progress up
a bit so this could be the key.I already use 3nps so if i throw the CAGED system in the mix
i think good things will happen.
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Emir Hot
post May 8 2009, 03:19 PM
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I use CAGED all the time for many melodic lines. You can easily connect positions all over the neck. 3 notes per string is also a nice system when I am playing fast scales (horizontal approach) but that's not always apropriate for some other type of phrasing.


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Pedja Simovic
post May 8 2009, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE (lee @ May 8 2009, 04:12 PM) *
Thanks Pedja,I'm all about the most efficient method.I'm lookin to speed my progress up
a bit so this could be the key.I already use 3nps so if i throw the CAGED system in the mix
i think good things will happen.


You welcome Lee !
I am glad to hear you are working on it. Great things will come out of it just keep up the good work.

Let me know if you need any help with it !



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djohnneay
post May 8 2009, 03:55 PM
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CAGED is a very systematic method, and if you follow correctly, you can learn all of the fretboard in not too much time. It has never worked for me though, I understand how it works, how chords fit in there, and how you can (easily) get from chords to scales, but I was never good at implementing this kinda thing.

It is, however, a good method, so if it works for you, use it !


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jdriver
post May 8 2009, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (djohnneay @ May 8 2009, 07:55 AM) *
CAGED is a very systematic method, and if you follow correctly, you can learn all of the fretboard in not too much time. It has never worked for me though, I understand how it works, how chords fit in there, and how you can (easily) get from chords to scales, but I was never good at implementing this kinda thing.

It is, however, a good method, so if it works for you, use it !


Very good point. As I tried to say before, no one single approach works well with every student.

CAGED is not so much a system or method, it is simply a fact. It's like the world atlas roadmap of the fretboard. There are other cool patterns and relationships, but caged is the underlying base.

The reason I'm such a cheerleader for caged it that when I decided to learn guitar, I made a decision that it wouldn't be worth doing unless I really understood how the guitar works, that is to say, not learning licks first but rather learning how to navigate from anywhere. Caged gave me this understanding.


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"I dreamed a lot when I was younger..
I'm older now but still I hunger
For some understanding.
There's no understanding, now.
Was there ever?

...Joe Puerta (Ambrosia)...


Finally got a YouTube page going.
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