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> Alternative Vs Economy
Chokehold
post Jul 21 2009, 10:02 PM
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I have never before thought about the way I pick, and thought that what I did was alternative.
And a few days ago I sat down and looked at what I did. Of course it was Economy picking.

But I don't see why you would want to play Alternative picking, as Economy let's you move faster between the strings.

So is there a reason to why you would want to play Alternative, and what is good about it?

And same question about Economy Picking.

Need some answers. smile.gif


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Muris Varajic
post Jul 21 2009, 10:10 PM
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Long time question. smile.gif

So, the thing is, alternate and economy are quite different,
they sound different, they give you different results,
they offer you different ideas once you master them nicely etc.

And no, you cannot play everything with economy,
try 2nps patterns like pentatonic runs and you'll realize.
Same thing goes for alternate, when you cannot play it with alternate
then most likely economy is the way to go.

Practice both, they are both useful
tho alternate has few advantages more. smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Jul 21 2009, 10:19 PM
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I am personaly a fan of alternate picking but sometimes I use economy for a better approach in horizontal scale patterns and arpeggios. There is a big differnce between the two. If I demonstrate you some fast 16th triplets licks you would realize that there is probably no human being that could posibly execute that with economy picking. The same applies the other way around. I agree with Muris. Learn both and use them when appropriate.


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Chokehold
post Jul 21 2009, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 21 2009, 11:10 PM) *
Long time question. smile.gif

So, the thing is, alternate and economy are quite different,
they sound different, they give you different results,
they offer you different ideas once you master them nicely etc.

And no, you cannot play everything with economy,
try 2nps patterns like pentatonic runs and you'll realize.
Same thing goes for alternate, when you cannot play it with alternate
then most likely economy is the way to go.

Practice both, they are both useful
tho alternate has few advantages more. smile.gif


Thank you. smile.gif

You know your stuff so I will start practice alternative as soon as possible, it's my worst area in techniques.
And practicing what you are worst at = faster progress someone here at GMC said, and that only motivates me. smile.gif


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Fingerspasm
post Jul 21 2009, 10:24 PM
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I usually refrain from answering technical questions since I am not an instructor. But I went through the same thing when I started playing. I had been playing about 6 months and I used economy picking. I thought there is no way that this is not the best way to play its just seemed so much easier. Then I decided I wanted to shred. So I started to watch and play Paul Gilbert Riffs. Pretty soon I started to get stuck. When I say stuck I mean I would lose my rhythm and crash right in the middle of a run. To make a long story short the only way I could advance was to learn how to use strict alternate picking.
I still use economy picking but mainly when I play blues or something that has a lot of Legato. I should mention when I was playing the Paul Gilbert runs it was all picking no Legato and thats why I would crash. You can still get away with it if you use legato because of the pause in between the picking. But try a very long run up or down the neck that is all picking and for me there is no better way than alternate picking. Do not take this as gospel its just the experience that I had with the two different forms of picking. biggrin.gif Plus I like the more percussive sound that alternate picking has.


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Chokehold
post Jul 21 2009, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 21 2009, 11:19 PM) *
I agree with Muris. Learn both and use them when appropriate.


Will do. smile.gif


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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Jul 21 2009, 10:32 PM
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Same thing happened to me man.


Do your 1-2-3-4 4-3-2-1 1-3-2-4 4-2-3-1 and etc. etc exercise like 15 minutes a day. Good way to practice different fingering patterns and break that trap your in. Playing on all those frets with strict alternate picking. The challenge for me was doing 3 note per string runs. Try playing one slow alternate picking after doing economy for so long and you will see why wink.gif


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Chokehold
post Jul 21 2009, 11:58 PM
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QUOTE (Fingerspasm @ Jul 21 2009, 11:24 PM) *
I usually refrain from answering technical questions since I am not an instructor. But I went through the same thing when I started playing. I had been playing about 6 months and I used economy picking. I thought there is no way that this is not the best way to play its just seemed so much easier. Then I decided I wanted to shred. So I started to watch and play Paul Gilbert Riffs. Pretty soon I started to get stuck. When I say stuck I mean I would lose my rhythm and crash right in the middle of a run. To make a long story short the only way I could advance was to learn how to use strict alternate picking.
I still use economy picking but mainly when I play blues or something that has a lot of Legato. I should mention when I was playing the Paul Gilbert runs it was all picking no Legato and thats why I would crash. You can still get away with it if you use legato because of the pause in between the picking. But try a very long run up or down the neck that is all picking and for me there is no better way than alternate picking. Do not take this as gospel its just the experience that I had with the two different forms of picking. biggrin.gif Plus I like the more percussive sound that alternate picking has.


I think that I will advance when I learn to alter between them, so it's pretty much the same as you. smile.gif

QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Jul 21 2009, 11:32 PM) *
Same thing happened to me man.


Do your 1-2-3-4 4-3-2-1 1-3-2-4 4-2-3-1 and etc. etc exercise like 15 minutes a day. Good way to practice different fingering patterns and break that trap your in. Playing on all those frets with strict alternate picking. The challenge for me was doing 3 note per string runs. Try playing one slow alternate picking after doing economy for so long and you will see why wink.gif


I have already started, and I can do it slow at least.
And I do know what you mean, I feel like a beginner again. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Chokehold: Jul 22 2009, 12:00 AM


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vampire18
post Jul 22 2009, 01:10 AM
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just wanted to add that i had the exact same problem and i think the biggest advantages of alterante are predictabilty and even tone on every stroke. really 90% of the time alternate is the way to go, thogh i gotta say sometimes when i have to do and outside change on a very fast lick i do cheat and do like a 2 string sweep if it helps some of the following to be easier or inside strokes


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Muris Varajic
post Jul 22 2009, 01:29 AM
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You might wanna try THIS lesson in as well,
it should prepare you nicely for many kinds of
"unforseen" situations. smile.gif


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lcsdds
post Jul 22 2009, 03:49 AM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 01:29 AM) *
You might wanna try THIS lesson in as well,
it should prepare you nicely for many kinds of
"unforseen" situations. smile.gif

Good lesson.... wink.gif

smile.gif
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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 22 2009, 11:53 AM
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Emir and Muris are right!
Both techniques have different applications and are equally useful.
We can go on about it and mention players that rarely (if ever) use alternate (Holdsworth, Gambale) or talk about guys that rarely use economy (Gilbert for example!). Bottom line is why not practice both ? smile.gif


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Zeyth
post Jul 22 2009, 03:10 PM
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http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDir...nalPicking.aspx
biggrin.gif

"And no, you cannot play everything with economy,
try 2nps patterns like pentatonic runs and you'll realize."

I'd say the picking pattern for that would simply be the same for alternate and economy picking.
And since there are virtuosos who use alternate picking, and virtuosos who use economy picking, I'd think it's more of a choice, or taste, than anything else.

"fast 16th triplets licks you would realize that there is probably no human being that could posibly execute that with economy picking"

As economy picking has less wasted motion, shouldn't it, theoretically, be possible to play faster using economy picking than alternate picking?
Then again, I think that just comes down to practice laugh.gif
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Chokehold
post Jul 22 2009, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 02:29 AM) *
You might wanna try THIS lesson in as well,
it should prepare you nicely for many kinds of
"unforseen" situations. smile.gif


Started on it now. smile.gif


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lcsdds
post Jul 22 2009, 05:56 PM
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QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 22 2009, 03:23 PM) *
Started on it now. smile.gif

I personally think economy comes in most handy when using it in conjunction with legato.......
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Muris Varajic
post Jul 22 2009, 06:08 PM
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QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 22 2009, 04:23 PM) *
Started on it now. smile.gif


Good! smile.gif

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 22 2009, 06:56 PM) *
I personally think economy comes in most handy when using it in conjunction with legato.......


Depends of a player Monte, take Frank Gambale per example,
he's using economy without any hammer-ons or pull-offs most often.
Some other guys use it combined with legato, true. smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Jul 22 2009, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 03:10 PM) *
As economy picking has less wasted motion, shouldn't it, theoretically, be possible to play faster using economy picking than alternate picking?
Then again, I think that just comes down to practice laugh.gif


I don't know what level you are but I am pretty sure that no person can economy pick this in 160bpm, 16th triplets


|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||


Even is someone is able to do it I think that's ridiculous to waste time practicing like that when AP is much easier and sounds better in these situations


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lcsdds
post Jul 22 2009, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 06:08 PM) *
Depends of a player Monte, take Frank Gambale per example,
he's using economy without any hammer-ons or pull-offs most often.
Some other guys use it combined with legato, true. smile.gif

So true Muris. One thing I remember you saying when I was debating about sticking with economy or working on alternate picking was you said that with economy it was "show me the lick".....you have to "design' your licks to work with economy. With alternate I think if you break down the mechanics and get those different pick strokes that occur when changing strings down that alternate is a much better technique. I definitely didn't think this until you really started helping me with my AP. Thanks for that Muris.......\m/\m/

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 22 2009, 06:14 PM) *
I don't know what level you are but I am pretty sure that no person can economy pick this in 160bpm, 16th triplets


|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||


Even is someone is able to do it I think that's ridiculous to waste time practicing like that when AP is much easier and sounds better in these situations

Spot on Emir.......I wasted A LOT of time trying to get everything to work with economy. Now I do everything AP. I only use economy now when I am doing legato.
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Muris Varajic
post Jul 22 2009, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 22 2009, 07:14 PM) *
I don't know what level you are but I am pretty sure that no person can economy pick this in 160bpm, 16th triplets


|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||


Even is someone is able to do it I think that's ridiculous to waste time practicing like that when AP is much easier and sounds better in these situations


Well, that kind of lick just isn't made to work with economy bro.
You can sweep between B and E strings once but then you'll get stuck by
downstroke on 3rd note on high E.
That's born for alternate. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 22 2009, 07:28 PM) *
So true Muris. One thing I remember you saying when I was debating about sticking with economy or working on alternate picking was you said that with economy it was "show me the lick".....you have to "design' your licks to work with economy. With alternate I think if you break down the mechanics and get those different pick strokes that occur when changing strings down that alternate is a much better technique. I definitely didn't think this until you really started helping me with my AP. Thanks for that Muris.......\m/\m/


Yeah, economy most often works with "prepared" licks
and with any kind of uneven notes per string runs, cheers. smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Jul 22 2009, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 07:32 PM) *
Well, that kind of lick just isn't made to work with economy bro.
You can sweep between B and E strings once but then you'll get stuck by
downstroke on 3rd note on high E.
That's born for alternate. biggrin.gif


If you hammer on notes on the 1st string then in theory you could play it with economy but still that's nonsense to me smile.gif


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