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> Cadence, ???
lcsdds
post Sep 4 2009, 07:02 AM
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Pedja......Could we start a discussion on Cadence????

I'll start it......

What is it?????? laugh.gif laugh.gif

Thanks Pedja......Hopefully this will be a good primer for me and I can get in on the next MTP with you when I have a little more time to really devote to it. Thanks!!

\m/\m/
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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 4 2009, 01:22 PM
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Monte here is something that you will find very useful !


Warning : PRINT THIS RESPONSE

I recommend you practice major scale in couple of ways

1) Playing/soloing in one position
2) Soloing in 5 shapes across the neck (CAGED system)
3) Soloing using 3 notes per string system (7 positions)
4) And soloing trough your guitar neck (combination of everything)

To all this I would add backing tracks of songs that have major type harmony.


Major scale harmony


In any major scale you have following chords on following degrees (lets take C major as an example)


I (C major) II (D minor) III (E minor) IV (F major) V (G major) VI (A minor) VII (B diminished) VIII (C major)


That is called 3 part, 3 note or Triadic type harmony - where we have chords that have 3 notes.
The rule is as following :
Scale degrees I, IV and V have MAJOR CHORDS on them while II, III and VI have MINOR CHORDS. VII scale degree is diminished. And this applies to any major scale!


4 Part harmony

If you want to get "fancy" with chords and chord progression you can extend it to 4 part chords which are :

I (C major7) II (D minor7) III(E minor7) IV (F major7) V (G dominant7) VI (A minor7) VII (B minor7b5) VIII(C major7)

As you see with 4 part chords harmony looks a bit different than with triads.
Scale degrees I and IV have MAJOR 7 chords. Scale degrees II, III and VI have MINOR 7 chords. Scale degree V has Dominant 7 chord (BLUES CHORD). Scale degree 7 has MINOR7b5 chord.


Now in order to practice major scale and its mode you need to know CHORD PROGRESSION for each mode , which in music we call CADENCE (group of chords that describe given mode!).

Major scale modes

Names of modes are following :

I Ionian ( also known as MAJOR SCALE)
II Dorian
III Phrygian
IV Lydian
V Mixolydian
VI Aeolian (also known as Natural Minor scale)
VII Locryian
VIII Ionian (same as I since its the same note).


Modes in C major
So in case of C major scale you would end up with following modes:

C Ionian
D Dorian
E phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian
C Ionian


From all of the modes mentioned in Major scale, Locryian mode is the only mode that is NOT USED frequently if AT ALL in Music. The reason for doing so is that Locrian sounds very unstable and any chord that goes into it won't help smooth the sound and transition !
So now I will give you Cadences (chord progression) for all of the modes that you can practice !

Modal cadences and chord progressions

C Ionian


I IV V I which means C major (I) F major (IV) G major (V) back to C major (I)
II V I which means D minor (II) G major (V) and C major (I).
Here is how that should look in bars //: C major/ F major / G major / C major : //
Two dots along with double bar line (//) represent REPEAT sign.
So you can play each chord the same duration !
The second cadence should look like this - //: D minor/ G major / C major/ C major ://
So you are resting on C major chord twice as long to create sense of resting point in harmony.


D Dorian

I IV or I IImin
Which means D minor to G major or D minor to E minor. Play both chords the same duration.


E Phrygian


Imin bII maj which is E min to F maj or
Imin bVIImin which is E min to D min or combination
Imin bII maj bVIImin Imin which is E min F maj D min E min
All the chords have the same duration !

F Lydian

I II which is F maj G maj or
I VIImin which is F maj E min or combination
I II VIImin I which is F maj G maj E min F maj
All the chords have the same duration !


G Mixolydian


I bVII which is G maj to F maj or
I Vmin which is G maj to D min
All the chords have the same duration!


A Aeolian

Imin IVmin Vmin Imin which is Amin Dmin Emin Amin
Imin bVI bVII Imin which is Amin F G Amin
Both cadences are played with all the chords having same duration.


B locryian - not used nor applied in music (explained above in text).


I seriously recommend some Loop pedal
or recording software (Boss's Loop Station RX-20L is great I have it for 2 years and is awesome for jamming , practicing, songwriting etc). You need to record somehow these chord progressions and then practice improvising (creating melodies riffs licks lines etc) using the scales.

Another thing I recommend is that you learn from early to use SEQUENCE and REPETITION in your solos. Sequence is basically group of notes in the scale that keep repeating or moving onto another place in the scale.
So sequence in C major scale could be C D E, D E F , E F G , F G A etc. Here sequence is playing up 3 notes then going down one and again playing 3 up and so on.

Another very important thing when practicing, soloing improvising is to vary the Rhythm when you solo. That means using combination of all rhythms possible (Whole notes, Half Notes, Quarter notes, Eight notes, Sixteen notes, 32nds even, Half note triplet, Quarter note triplet , Eight note triplet, 16th note triplet and even 32nd note triplet).
It is impossible to use all of these rhythms in REAL SOLO but hey if you practice improvising with these and restricting yourself using certain combination of rhythms mentioned, you will become very versatile player and chances are you will find original voice/sound in music sooner.

Don't forget one last and final thing and that is to use RESTS when playing. Music without rests is just meaningless and doesn't allow listener to absorb and keep nice things in his/her ear that you just played. Moving on from one idea to another without rests causes a lot of chaos and sounds very amateur and unconnected to somebody who is listening.
There are ways how to "avoid" using rests to minimal extent and that is to use SEQUENCE and REPETITION which I mentioned earlier !

So my final suggestion is print this response, read it before going to sleep and when you wake up , and apply it in your daily practice routine.


If you follow everything results should be very obvious and should happen quite soon !

Hope that helps.
Let me know if you have any questions !

Pedja


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lcsdds
post Sep 4 2009, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 4 2009, 01:22 PM) *
Monte here is something that you will find very useful !


Warning : PRINT THIS RESPONSE

I recommend you practice major scale in couple of ways

1) Playing/soloing in one position
2) Soloing in 5 shapes across the neck (CAGED system)
3) Soloing using 3 notes per string system (7 positions)
4) And soloing trough your guitar neck (combination of everything)

To all this I would add backing tracks of songs that have major type harmony.


Major scale harmony


In any major scale you have following chords on following degrees (lets take C major as an example)


I (C major) II (D minor) III (E minor) IV (F major) V (G major) VI (A minor) VII (B diminished) VIII (C major)


That is called 3 part, 3 note or Triadic type harmony - where we have chords that have 3 notes.
The rule is as following :
Scale degrees I, IV and V have MAJOR CHORDS on them while II, III and VI have MINOR CHORDS. VII scale degree is diminished. And this applies to any major scale!


4 Part harmony

If you want to get "fancy" with chords and chord progression you can extend it to 4 part chords which are :

I (C major7) II (D minor7) III(E minor7) IV (F major7) V (G dominant7) VI (A minor7) VII (B minor7b5) VIII(C major7)

As you see with 4 part chords harmony looks a bit different than with triads.
Scale degrees I and IV have MAJOR 7 chords. Scale degrees II, III and VI have MINOR 7 chords. Scale degree V has Dominant 7 chord (BLUES CHORD). Scale degree 7 has MINOR7b5 chord.


Now in order to practice major scale and its mode you need to know CHORD PROGRESSION for each mode , which in music we call CADENCE (group of chords that describe given mode!).

Major scale modes

Names of modes are following :

I Ionian ( also known as MAJOR SCALE)
II Dorian
III Phrygian
IV Lydian
V Mixolydian
VI Aeolian (also known as Natural Minor scale)
VII Locryian
VIII Ionian (same as I since its the same note).


Modes in C major
So in case of C major scale you would end up with following modes:

C Ionian
D Dorian
E phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian
C Ionian


From all of the modes mentioned in Major scale, Locryian mode is the only mode that is NOT USED frequently if AT ALL in Music. The reason for doing so is that Locrian sounds very unstable and any chord that goes into it won't help smooth the sound and transition !
So now I will give you Cadences (chord progression) for all of the modes that you can practice !

Modal cadences and chord progressions

C Ionian


I IV V I which means C major (I) F major (IV) G major (V) back to C major (I)
II V I which means D minor (II) G major (V) and C major (I).
Here is how that should look in bars //: C major/ F major / G major / C major : //
Two dots along with double bar line (//) represent REPEAT sign.
So you can play each chord the same duration !
The second cadence should look like this - //: D minor/ G major / C major/ C major ://
So you are resting on C major chord twice as long to create sense of resting point in harmony.


D Dorian

I IV or I IImin
Which means D minor to G major or D minor to E minor. Play both chords the same duration.


E Phrygian


Imin bII maj which is E min to F maj or
Imin bVIImin which is E min to D min or combination
Imin bII maj bVIImin Imin which is E min F maj D min E min
All the chords have the same duration !

F Lydian

I II which is F maj G maj or
I VIImin which is F maj E min or combination
I II VIImin I which is F maj G maj E min F maj
All the chords have the same duration !


G Mixolydian


I bVII which is G maj to F maj or
I Vmin which is G maj to D min
All the chords have the same duration!


A Aeolian

Imin IVmin Vmin Imin which is Amin Dmin Emin Amin
Imin bVI bVII Imin which is Amin F G Amin
Both cadences are played with all the chords having same duration.


B locryian - not used nor applied in music (explained above in text).


I seriously recommend some Loop pedal
or recording software (Boss's Loop Station RX-20L is great I have it for 2 years and is awesome for jamming , practicing, songwriting etc). You need to record somehow these chord progressions and then practice improvising (creating melodies riffs licks lines etc) using the scales.

Another thing I recommend is that you learn from early to use SEQUENCE and REPETITION in your solos. Sequence is basically group of notes in the scale that keep repeating or moving onto another place in the scale.
So sequence in C major scale could be C D E, D E F , E F G , F G A etc. Here sequence is playing up 3 notes then going down one and again playing 3 up and so on.

Another very important thing when practicing, soloing improvising is to vary the Rhythm when you solo. That means using combination of all rhythms possible (Whole notes, Half Notes, Quarter notes, Eight notes, Sixteen notes, 32nds even, Half note triplet, Quarter note triplet , Eight note triplet, 16th note triplet and even 32nd note triplet).
It is impossible to use all of these rhythms in REAL SOLO but hey if you practice improvising with these and restricting yourself using certain combination of rhythms mentioned, you will become very versatile player and chances are you will find original voice/sound in music sooner.

Don't forget one last and final thing and that is to use RESTS when playing. Music without rests is just meaningless and doesn't allow listener to absorb and keep nice things in his/her ear that you just played. Moving on from one idea to another without rests causes a lot of chaos and sounds very amateur and unconnected to somebody who is listening.
There are ways how to "avoid" using rests to minimal extent and that is to use SEQUENCE and REPETITION which I mentioned earlier !

So my final suggestion is print this response, read it before going to sleep and when you wake up , and apply it in your daily practice routine.


If you follow everything results should be very obvious and should happen quite soon !

Hope that helps.
Let me know if you have any questions !

Pedja

As usual Pedja you have outdone yourself...... cool.gif

I copied this and put it in a word document so I won't lose it. I will work on this for sure and post back in this thread as questions come up. THANKS A LOT!!!!!

\m/\m/
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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 4 2009, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Sep 4 2009, 02:35 PM) *
As usual Pedja you have outdone yourself...... cool.gif

I copied this and put it in a word document so I won't lose it. I will work on this for sure and post back in this thread as questions come up. THANKS A LOT!!!!!

\m/\m/



Thank you Monte. I am just very glad I could help you with this important material. I am sure many members will find that post useful as well smile.gif
Let me know if you have any questions !


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lcsdds
post Sep 4 2009, 02:00 PM
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I have a question Pedja.......you said this....


QUOTE
Imin bVIImin which is E min to D min or combination


Are we considering every mode.....Phrygian in this case.....as a scale all by itself here and then comparing it to the major scale. So for Phrygian E is the "I" instead of the "iii" and bVII is derived from comparing E Phrygian or E major or is it from comparing E Phrygian to E minor/aeolian????

Just want to be on the same page as I start working through this stuff.......Thanks Pedja.
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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 4 2009, 02:03 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Sep 4 2009, 03:00 PM) *
Are we considering every mode.....Phrygian in this case.....as a scale all by itself here and then comparing it to the major scale. So for Phrygian E is the "I" instead of the "iii" and bVII is derived from comparing E Phrygian or E major or is it from comparing E Phrygian to E minor/aeolian????

Just want to be on the same page as I start working through this stuff.......Thanks Pedja.


Exactly Monte. Each mode is scale by itself and we come up with scale degrees based on comparison with major scale. Since major scale is all major and perfect intervals we get I II III IV V VI VII. In all the other modes we have some sort of combination of Major, Minor, Augmented, Diminished and Perfect intervals. This is why we alter scale degrees. If its minor 3rd from root of the mode we would put bIII. If Its augmented 4th we would put #IV (Lydian mode for example!).
I hope that helps man!


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Frederik
post Sep 4 2009, 02:03 PM
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Amazing, more on cadences ! could u give examples or nice tips how to incorperate some out chords in a normal (major/minor) cadence?
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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 4 2009, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE (Frederik @ Sep 4 2009, 03:03 PM) *
Amazing, more on cadences ! could u give examples or nice tips how to incorperate some out chords in a normal (major/minor) cadence?


I could but that now involves chromatic approach, reharmonization, II V I patterns and application of modal interchange. Its much more advanced then just sticking with cadences. For time being learn all the Major scale mode cadences, then you can move to modal interchange and the rest wink.gif


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Frederik
post Sep 4 2009, 02:08 PM
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OK, i better get going, though i think of myself as pretty good at understanding these things. i havent improvised over the modal cadences though, but i understand the principal
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lcsdds
post Sep 4 2009, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 4 2009, 02:03 PM) *
Exactly Monte. Each mode is scale by itself and we come up with scale degrees based on comparison with major scale. Since major scale is all major and perfect intervals we get I II III IV V VI VII. In all the other modes we have some sort of combination of Major, Minor, Augmented, Diminished and Perfect intervals. This is why we alter scale degrees. If its minor 3rd from root of the mode we would put bIII. If Its augmented 4th we would put #IV (Lydian mode for example!).
I hope that helps man!

Gotcha Pedja......My goal for right now is to just memorize these Cadences that you have given me. Then just when I think I am pretty smart I'll check back and you can put me in my place!!!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

Thanks for the help Pedja.....time to take my theory knowledge to the next level.....\m/\m/
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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 4 2009, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE (Frederik @ Sep 4 2009, 03:08 PM) *
OK, i better get going, though i think of myself as pretty good at understanding these things. i havent improvised over the modal cadences though, but i understand the principal


That is exactly what I was going to suggest.
Take these formulas for cadences, create backing tracks and improvise using chord tones and tensions. You will find that you are better and comfatable with some modes more than others. Not just you, all of us smile.gif So once you go through them all its time to move to new modes and start applying all this in real music (songwriting) .

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Sep 4 2009, 03:10 PM) *
Gotcha Pedja......My goal for right now is to just memorize these Cadences that you have given me. Then just when I think I am pretty smart I'll check back and you can put me in my place!!!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

Thanks for the help Pedja.....time to take my theory knowledge to the next level.....\m/\m/


Anytime Monte. Come back whenever you are ready for more. You could even post videos of you improvising over specific mode on Youtube. I will ask my MTP students to do this with backing track I provide them with.


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Frederik
post Sep 4 2009, 02:16 PM
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That's gonna be my new challenge then smile.gif
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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 4 2009, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE (Frederik @ Sep 4 2009, 03:16 PM) *
That's gonna be my new challenge then smile.gif


That's going to be your first MTP assignment then! wink.gif


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JamesT
post Sep 24 2009, 02:47 AM
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This is such a great thread. I keep coming back to it daily.

Pedja, regarding the cadences you list, are these "all" of the possible cadences? For example for Dorian, you list I IV, or I, IImin. Are other progressions possible that would still be dorian?

Take again for example, D Dorian
It seems like you could play any chord progression in the key of C (even Dm-C-Dm-Em-Dm-F-Dm) as long as you keep Dminor at the tonal center, you could then play D Dorian scale over it for Dorian mode soloing.

I guess what I'm asking is what makes a cadence "a cadence"? I hope my example is not too confusing.
If I missed something from the reading above, just tell me to re-read the thread. biggrin.gif

Jim.


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lcsdds
post Sep 24 2009, 04:52 AM
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QUOTE (JamesT @ Sep 24 2009, 02:47 AM) *
This is such a great thread. I keep coming back to it daily.

Pedja, regarding the cadences you list, are these "all" of the possible cadences? For example for Dorian, you list I IV, or I, IImin. Are other progressions possible that would still be dorian?

Take again for example, D Dorian
It seems like you could play any chord progression in the key of C (even Dm-C-Dm-Em-Dm-F-Dm) as long as you keep Dminor at the tonal center, you could then play D Dorian scale over it for Dorian mode soloing.

I guess what I'm asking is what makes a cadence "a cadence"? I hope my example is not too confusing.
If I missed something from the reading above, just tell me to re-read the thread. biggrin.gif

Jim.

James.....Pedja can correct me if I'm wrong.....but I think that the reason that you would focus on the I, IV or IImin chord in dorian is because these are the chords that distinguish it from the Aeolian mode. Dorian is a minor mode. The chords that can ONLY be found in the Dorian mode and NOT the Aeolian mode are those chords......specifically the IV and IImin......the I chord can of course be found in bothe Dorian and Aeolian. Therefore to get the true flavor of the Dorian mode you should focus on those chords. Of course you can use any chord found in the Dorian mode in your progression but the I, IV and IImin are the chords that contain the #6 (this is if you are comparing it to the Aeolian mode and not the Ionian mode). Hope I didn't confuse you too much. If I did I'm sorry and Pedja can set you straight.........\m/\m/ smile.gif


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JamesT
post Sep 24 2009, 06:12 AM
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This is a lot different than working on shredding skills eh Monte. smile.gif.
I'm starting to combine both though by doing some thinking while practicing scales. It's helping so far I think.

I'll put some thought into what you wrote to see if I can get it. I think that if I take some time away from the metronome to construct all the possible 1-3-5-7 chords from the dorian scale and the compare those with other chords constructed from modes in the same key then I might discover what the uniqueness of each mode is.


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 24 2009, 02:37 PM
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James,

Cadence is chord progression that describes any given scale or mode. For Dorian mode we need to have strong chord sound (TONIC) which is I min but we also need a chord that contains characteristic note of the mode. For Dorian mode, characteristic note is Major 6th or scale degree VI. This pretty much means that you could use any chord that uses that note and it would become characteristic chord as well. (this is all very basic explanation but it will help a lot for time being!).

So D Dorian = D E F G A B C D
B is 6th
We need D minor for strong sound (D F A) and we need some chord with B note. There are 3 triads that have B in them. B as root would be B diminshed triad (B D F = D minor 6 sound just 2nd inversion!) ; B as some sort of 3rd is G major (G B D) and B as some sort of 5th is E minor chord ( E G cool.gif.
This is where we got I min to II min = D min to E min or I min to IV = D min to G .

Hope that makes sense.

P.S. Notice how B diminished chord is not used because it has 2 out of 3 strong chord tones of D minor (D and F = root and 3rd). This is why we use E minor (all 3 notes are different from D minor up a whole step) and G major (we have D in the chord but also G and B which are IV and VI important scale degrees).


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JamesT
post Sep 25 2009, 06:57 AM
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Ok. Here goes...

The notes of D Dorian are as follows:

I D
II E
III F
IV G
V A
VI B
VII C

This differs from the D minor scale in that with D minor, we would have the following:

I D
II E
III F
IV G
V A
VI Bb
VII C


The one note that's different is the VI. (which in dorian is sharp compared to minor). It is this reason that the VI is the only characteristic note for Dorian mode.

Now, as with your example, since B (natural) is the characteristic note in D Dorian mode, we then build triads containing B from the scale to obtain the characteristic chords in the D Dorian mode...

Since triads only contain three notes, we can only have three possible chords that contain it

With B as Root -- B(I), D(III), and F(V) ---> B diminished (cause 5th is flat)
With B as Third -- G(I), B(III), and D(V) ---> G maj
With B as Fifth -- E(I), G(III), and B(V). ---> E min

Checking my work against what you wrote, I think I've got it right so far.

Why do we toss out the B diminished chord again? ... cause two of the notes are the same as the D minor chord (D and F)?
I guess it makes some sense to toss it out, but it still contains the characteristic note B.

Are all the cadences for all the modes based on this formula?
1. Find characteristic notes.
2. Build all possible triads that contain characteristic notes.
3. Toss out the ones that have too much in common with the root.








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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 25 2009, 07:26 AM
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Exactly Jim!

You got it man. Great analysis. I would add to it that cadence has to have basic sound of the mode (which is always some sort of I chord, in this case D minor is I min) and the rest is chord that contains characteristic note of the mode.
There are other important notes in the mode, like for minor scales II and VI in major scales. Phrygian has b9 and b13 (b2 and b6) while aeolian has 2 and b6 and dorian has 2 and 6!
You can see how this works out now wink.gif


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