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> The Murder Of Music, Think Before You Act
Emir Hot
post Dec 9 2009, 04:18 AM
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My friend and an awesome neoclassical shredder Borislav Mitic has recently signed for Lion Music which is the metal label from Finland that also released my album.

Just before he released his new record he posted a very seirous story about "The Murder of Music" on the Lion Music's website. Some of other Lion Music artists (including me) also gave their input on this subject.

CHECK IT OUT HERE!

I would be interested to see comments on Borislav's text from GMC community.


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Santiago Diaz Ga...
post Dec 9 2009, 04:23 AM
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Let's take a look......


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audiopaal
post Dec 9 2009, 08:07 AM
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I agree with him for the most part, and it's true..
Some artists will stop releasing albums,
and music as we know it today will be altered because of downloading music for free.

Although I think it's written in a very "brutal" way,
and I don't necessarily agree on all of the comparisons he give,
I do believe he's right and I support the message he's getting across smile.gif

I've always bought albums, and that's why I need a larger apartment soon dry.gif biggrin.gif
I must admit however, I sometimes download albums to check if I like them or not.
We only have one (yes... ONE!) music store in downtown Stavanger,
and it's not a joy to be standing in line for a long time, just to skip through an album.

Although some might mean this is a bad thing,
I believe I can justify it with my ever growing cd collection smile.gif

You should tell your friend to keep on preaching,
and hopefully many more understands that making an album is expensive and time consuming!
I'm soon done recording the demos for my first album,
and although it's gonna be a while before it's done and hopefully released,
I really hope someone's gonna buy it when it's out smile.gif
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gibsonmatte
post Dec 9 2009, 09:38 AM
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Really strong words from your friend Emir, and I agree to some extent. "Stealing" someones work or production isn't ok in any way. However, the way I see it , the record companies aren't really up to date with the current "music situation" and the way the internet has changed how we look at music and the way music is accessible to us. Like mentioned, it is not ok to "steal" music but since record companies still totally rely on profits coming through record sales I think they need to adapt to current situation.
And for musicians I believe that the biggest income should come through ticket sales, merchandise and stuff like that when playing live.
Artists will continue to sell records but not in the way that they used to and I believe that those days are over. Back in the days, pre-internet, selling records was the biggest way of getting an income. But this isn't how things work today and I don't think it should either. Income should be come through legal downloads, ticket sales, merch and of course album sales. However the main income can't be record sales like we're used too. And this is where I believe the core issues is. Companies and artist still believe that record sales shoudl be the main source of income, but like mentioned those days are over. There gotta be other ways of adapting to the current situation and development.

And regarding "legal downloads" lie iTunes or similar sites this today only seem to be a weak replacement for the loss of album sales. Downloading an album from iTunes isn't really that much cheaper than buying the actual album. I guess the reason for this is that the big record companies are trying to make up for the loss of "real" album sales...

Ok, this is a bit cynical but hopefully you get my point.
I also realize that this is not really what your friend wrote Emir and sorry for stepping on any toes here smile.gif


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audiopaal
post Dec 9 2009, 10:37 AM
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QUOTE (gibsonmatte @ Dec 9 2009, 09:38 AM) *
Really strong words from your friend Emir, and I agree to some extent. "Stealing" someones work or production isn't ok in any way. However, the way I see it , the record companies aren't really up to date with the current "music situation" and the way the internet has changed how we look at music and the way music is accessible to us. Like mentioned, it is not ok to "steal" music but since record companies still totally rely on profits coming through record sales I think they need to adapt to current situation.
And for musicians I believe that the biggest income should come through ticket sales, merchandise and stuff like that when playing live.
Artists will continue to sell records but not in the way that they used to and I believe that those days are over. Back in the days, pre-internet, selling records was the biggest way of getting an income. But this isn't how things work today and I don't think it should either. Income should be come through legal downloads, ticket sales, merch and of course album sales. However the main income can't be record sales like we're used too. And this is where I believe the core issues is. Companies and artist still believe that record sales shoudl be the main source of income, but like mentioned those days are over. There gotta be other ways of adapting to the current situation and development.

And regarding "legal downloads" lie iTunes or similar sites this today only seem to be a weak replacement for the loss of album sales. Downloading an album from iTunes isn't really that much cheaper than buying the actual album. I guess the reason for this is that the big record companies are trying to make up for the loss of "real" album sales...

Ok, this is a bit cynical but hopefully you get my point.
I also realize that this is not really what your friend wrote Emir and sorry for stepping on any toes here smile.gif


Income may very well come from legal downloading, as long as the music industry wakes up and sees the current situation.
The legal downloads is too expensive today, and they need to see that all the "middle men" like cd covers,
printing, shipping, distribution is not a concern with online distribution and mp3's should therefore be cheaper.

Also, artists can sell their albums online themselves like Radiohead, Nine Inch Nails and Pogo Pops and make money without the help of others and therefore make even more money.

This is at a very early stage now, and the music industry have to change with the times.
But it's not ok to steal because their living in the past, so until a better alternative comes along, I will continue to buy my cd's smile.gif
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jafomatic
post Dec 9 2009, 11:22 AM
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QUOTE (audiopaal @ Dec 9 2009, 03:37 AM) *
Income may very well come from legal downloading


Jack Conte is a decent example of this. Plenty of free content and cheap songs offered online via his own website. His promotion tool? Youtube. You've maybe seen him linked here, some folks seem to credit him with the "invention" of the videosong genre and he's made some popular ones with his girlfriend.

Jack's Youtube Channel

Jack's Wikipedia Entry

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ItsMe
post Dec 9 2009, 01:20 PM
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Nice article, strong words. I agree absolutely that illegal downloading is stealing. I always purchase the music I need and try to convince everybody else to do the same. However there is no way that the music business will be profitable and booming like in the old days. Loyal music buyers, like most of us here on the forum, are not the norm and since it is possible to download for free it will always happen. But if you reach enough of the rather thoughtless downloaders and convince them, you might regain enough revenue streams to create a liveable environment for musicians. Still there are many changes in the business and problems that will remain. A change that hurts me a little is that physical copies of albums will become more and more obsolete. Digital copies are the future. This means digital distribution is the most important part of selling an album. Platforms like i-tunes, amazon, musicload and all the other download vendors are where the sales will be created. Problem is that this kills record stores and therefore a big part of the whole world of music that appealed to an elderly guy like me. I loved hanging out in the store, listening to music and carrying a physical copy with the great cover artwork and the booklet home. For me a CD also had some advertisement function. Like a flyer or something similar. A physical representation of the music itself. But the younger generations don't know that anyway and since they are the future buyers they dictate how the business develops. Another problem are flat rates. Most of the younger people I know that are big music geeks and don't want to download illegally still don't buy records. They use some legal flat rate like napster. You can listen to and get most mainstream music there, for 9 Euros a month. Perhaps that’s the real future of the business, but it means that there is no real margin that allows paying decent money to the musicians after everybody else took its share out.
On the other hand there are many positive sides to the development. Independent musicians can distribute their music more easily and reach an audience that was limited to musicians with major label contracts. Everybody on every corner of the world can get the music they want and therefore everybody can participate in the wonderful world of music.
In conclusion I think that the music business we knew is dead but not the music. In the future the musician will not be able to rely on a label to help them with the administrative part of the music making process. From organising a studio, finding distributers to concert booking. This means there will be fewer publications by single artists because they have to carry all the risk and invest allot of time. Time they don't have then for composing, recording and all the rest but on the other hand there will be many new artists popping up all over the place. Creativity of the single artist may suffer because of the pressure on the single artist but other ways of creative expression will develop because of the greater and more global impact. Think of some great youtube acts. In addition I believe that purely internet based labels will be the future. They will help you getting your music on the download platforms and help you with the licensing and perhaps send your music to radio stations. The rest will be up to you. I had a couple of business ideas based on this, but failed to get them done because of financial issues. Now this all exists and I am a little sad sometimes. Anyway all my musicians’ friends live from selling tickets, merchandise and 99% of their album revenues come from i-tunes/amazon/napster or whatever downloads. They can make a living but on the other hand they make rather commercial (they would kill me since they make indie pop, (which by the way is the new mainstream pop smile.gif ) music that has a rather large market even though it tries to appear to be non commercial. So I guess it depends also allot on your style of music. But nevertheless the great penetration of the internet based music business should help everybody. Lets hope that if you raise enough awareness many people will pay for their downloads. But again I think the times when you could get really, really rich with making music are over. If you want to make money you have to be some kind of franchise phenomenon with allot of commercial appeal for other business sectors.

This post has been edited by ItsMe: Dec 9 2009, 01:29 PM


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CathShadow
post Dec 9 2009, 02:17 PM
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I don't pirate, neither music, nor games. period.. purely because I don't think it's right, and I know the effort that goes into making it.

that said, I think prices are "the Murder of Music", as are the fact that when an album is realeased "World Wide" its not available in all digital stores:

Case in point: Flyleaf. Released world wide. available in itunes. except itunes netherlands.....

Now if I want it, I must import it... at more than double the price...

Now I'm just outrite not gonna buy it. LEAST of all from itunes.

Until I get home to south africa. MAYBE they have the CD there.


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Keilnoth
post Dec 9 2009, 07:31 PM
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Ah well, I wrote a big text but then deleted it. Personally, I am pretty tired of this debate. I don't agree with pirates but I don't agree with distributors either.

Life change, things change and people have to adapt. Majors were unable to adapt to new technologies, now they are paying the price of their incompetences.

It's sad that small independent artists and distributors suffer from this as well but we have already many examples of people who can get their money in good business models on the internet. And I mean good FREE business models with FREE advertising.

But perhaps you will have to forget the big companies doing everything and selling a 10 songs CD for 25$ and giving 1.5$ to the artist. People don't agree with that anymore. It's a revolt.

Piracy existed before the internet and will still exist after the internet. The internet only show and share the truth. Truth about quality, truth about talent, truth about prices, etc...

And in the end, talent is rewarded, anyways.


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Gus
post Dec 9 2009, 07:33 PM
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Piracy is always a delicate topic. I remember Marcus Siepen created a topic about that with a lot of different opinions...

There is an even worse version of piracy: hard copy pirated CDs. In developing countries, there is still a lot of people who do not have broadband Internet access and therefore they do not download songs. But they do buy pirated versions of CDs. So that means that they pay something, but the money goes to someone else other than the artist/label...

But I do consider that the business model for music industry has to be revised. In my dream world, I would like to be able to pay a fixed amount of money for subscription (of all labels) and be able to listen to any music, any time any where... And the artists would get properly payed by how many times I listen to them...

This post has been edited by Gus: Dec 9 2009, 07:34 PM


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MirkoSchmidt
post Dec 9 2009, 07:47 PM
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hey, i have 42 Gigabyte Music ripped from Internet on my computer. i get them from a friend a year ago and do you know what? i never liste to something of that stuff. sure there is great music, but i want to have a original cd, i want to read the lyrics in the little booklet, i want to see pictures of the band and stuff like this. ripped music is without soul for me, i dont like it.
if i need space on my computer i will delate it woithout a second of relutance...


ps: please dont call the cops... huh.gif

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Fran
post Dec 9 2009, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (Gus @ Dec 9 2009, 07:33 PM) *
... In my dream world, I would like to be able to pay a fixed amount of money for subscription (of all labels) and be able to listen to any music, any time any where... And the artists would get properly payed by how many times I listen to them...


That's a pretty cool idea.

I have a LastFM subscription, and that's what I listen to most of the time to discover new stuff. If they made it possible to select the exact songs, make playlists etc. and even download your favourite tracks it would be even cooler, and I wouldn't mind paying more for it.

I also used to listen to Pandora back when it was available for those outside US. Loved it.


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Emir Hot
post Dec 9 2009, 08:05 PM
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I would agree with Mirko that ripped music has no "soul" if that's the right word for what we mean. I also like to have lyrics, pictures and a product worth the money. This way I not only enjoy what I bought but also rewarded the artist for his hard work which is what he/she deserves.

I can't really say wether internet is better for music these days or not. It is true that the music is easily accessible to buy with 1 click which is great but at the same time it kills motivation in many artists because of illegal file sharing. According to reviews of my album, number of fans on myspace/facebook, distribution and many other facts, I can predict that there are around 20.000 or more pirated copies of my album. If I got the money from half of it I would have had the third album released by now. This way I am not thinking of doing another one as I only got about 7% in return which is not fair at all. That was nearly 2 years of hard work and in the end it was all pointless. This is how an artist loses his motivation to move on and that's an awful thing in my oppinion.


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MirkoSchmidt
post Dec 9 2009, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 9 2009, 08:05 PM) *
I would agree with Mirko that ripped music has no "soul" if that's the right word for what we mean. I also like to have lyrics, pictures and a product worth the money. This way I not only enjoy what I bought but also rewarded the artist for his hard work which is what he/she deserves.

I can't really say wether internet is better for music these days or not. It is true that the music is easily accessible to buy with 1 click which is great but at the same time it kills motivation in many artists because of illegal file sharing. According to reviews of my album, number of fans on myspace/facebook, distribution and many other facts, I can predict that there are around 20.000 or more pirated copies of my album. If I got the money from half of it I would have had the third album released by now. This way I am not thinking of doing another one as I only got about 7% in return which is not fair at all. That was nearly 2 years of hard work and in the end it was all pointless. This is how an artist loses his motivation to move on and that's an awful thing in my oppinion.


hm, i think i have to buy your cd emir! i hope there is a cool cover and nice words in the booklet! im sure your playing is worth that money!


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ItsMe
post Dec 9 2009, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (Gus @ Dec 9 2009, 07:33 PM) *
In my dream world, I would like to be able to pay a fixed amount of money for subscription (of all labels) and be able to listen to any music, any time any where... And the artists would get properly payed by how many times I listen to them...



QUOTE (Fran @ Dec 9 2009, 07:59 PM) *
That's a pretty cool idea.

I have a LastFM subscription, and that's what I listen to most of the time to discover new stuff. If they made it possible to select the exact songs, make playlists etc. and even download your favourite tracks it would be even cooler, and I wouldn't mind paying more for it.

I also used to listen to Pandora back when it was available for those outside US. Loved it
.




I don't like it but its a legal flat rate for $ 5 http://free.napster.com/subscribe/
its 9 Euros in Europe as I wrote in my earlier text

This post has been edited by ItsMe: Dec 9 2009, 08:11 PM


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Emir Hot
post Dec 9 2009, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (MirkoSchmidt @ Dec 9 2009, 07:09 PM) *
hm, i think i have to buy your cd emir! i hope there is a cool cover and nice words in the booklet! im sure your playing is worth that money!

The purpose of my post wasn't to make someone buy my album smile.gif It was just my oppinion about illegal downloads. But I appreciate whoever buy is smile.gif Of course there are lyrics, cool cover, some pics etc...


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Keilnoth
post Dec 9 2009, 08:36 PM
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Emir, I am really interested to know the policies of the contract you signed with Lion Music.

For example, are you allowed to create your own distribution system on emirhot.com ? Are you allowed to add a "Click here to donate" button on your website ? Or to give some free sample of your album ? Or perhaps even to create your own "shop" ?

Do you know how many visitors you have on your website ? And did you ever asked them if they would be happy to give directly to you a few bucks for what you do ?

Because, you know your songs are everywhere on the web, for free, then what's the matter in selling them on your website, DRM free, subscription free ? The people who are not ready to pay 20€ for your CD are perhaps ready to pay 10€ for it.

Another question, where can I buy the MP3s of your album on Lion Music ? I cannot find that. smile.gif

I went to legaldownload.net and made a search with your name. I got one result, clicked on the link and fall on a full page of artists I don't care about...

Perhaps, what all those guys need is a good Internet consultant. You know what I mean ? wink.gif

No offense. But perhaps your product is not very well advertised and sold as well.

PS : There are no link for your old albums, if you have the MP3 of those, why not selling them ? smile.gif


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ItsMe
post Dec 9 2009, 08:47 PM
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Emir what do you think about streaming flatrates. How much do you earn. I guess its like radio royalties ?


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Emir Hot
post Dec 9 2009, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (Keilnoth @ Dec 9 2009, 07:36 PM) *
Emir, I am really interested to know the policies of the contract you signed with Lion Music.

That's the contract similar to what every signed metal artist have. Lion Music is one of 5 biggest metal labels in Europe.

QUOTE
For example, are you allowed to create your own distribution system on emirhot.com ? Are you allowed to add a "Click here to donate" button on your website ? Or to give some free sample of your album ? Or perhaps even to create your own "shop" ?

There is BUY NOW button below the CD picture on my website. That takes you directly to Lion Music web store. You also have some 1 min samples from the CD to listen. I am not allowed to sell it myself but I can get the special price from the label to sell it when I am on the tour and take all the profit. I did get free number of copies when the album was released. Every 6 months I get share from sales plus other stuff like sublicencing, publishing etc...

QUOTE
Do you know how many visitors you have on your website ? And did you ever asked them if they would be happy to give directly to you a few bucks for what you do ?

Yes I do. There are average about 3000 visitors per month. I never asked for few bucks smile.gif I don't think I will do that. My label paid me initial fee when I got the contract which covered some costs of the studio work.

QUOTE
Because, you know your songs are everywhere on the web, for free, then what's the matter in selling them on your website, DRM free, subscription free ? The people who are not ready to pay 20€ for your CD are perhaps ready to pay 10€ for it.

Well it costs around 14 EUR and I think that's the normal price for the metal album. I pay that money for everything similar I buy. On some sites you can get it even few euros cheaper. Mp3 is less then 10 EUR on many sites. Try Itunes.

QUOTE
Another question, where can I buy the MP3s of your album on Lion Music ? I cannot find that. smile.gif

CDbaby, Itunes, Amazon, Lion Music, Guitar9 and many many more... Here is the direct Lion Music link. The regular distribution of hard copies is done in about 60 countries worldwide. The label is doing a great job with distribution. Also the promotion was done in all famous metal magazines worldwide. I've done about 200 interviews for those. I found my CD in shops in London when the album was released. I don't think they are in shops anymore but I received emails that people bought it in normal CD shops in Australia, USA, Brazil, Europe ...

QUOTE
I went to legaldownload.net and made a search with your name. I got one result, clicked on the link and fall on a full page of artists I don't care about...

I don't know about that website, sorry.

QUOTE
PS : There are no link for your old albums, if you have the MP3 of those, why not selling them ? smile.gif

Those are 10 or more years old albums. They are out of print and even I am not able to buy them anywhere. Also those labels don't exest anymore.


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audiopaal
post Dec 9 2009, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 9 2009, 09:01 PM) *
Those are 10 or more years old albums. They are out of print and even I am not able to buy them anywhere. Also those labels don't exest anymore.

Don't you have any mp3's of them? smile.gif
I'd buy them if you had, would be very interresting to hear smile.gif
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