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> Bb Melodic Minor Over Dm7, ...What is the idea behind that?
Caelumamittendum
post Feb 6 2010, 03:57 PM
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A friend of mine keeps talking/telling me about this in relation to playing over a static minor 7th chord. I can't get my head around what this approach is and why it works. Could you try and explain this? He tried to explain it to me after 6 beers and a couple of shots yesterday, but that didn't work out very well. tongue.gif


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Staffy
post Feb 6 2010, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Feb 6 2010, 03:57 PM) *
A friend of mine keeps talking/telling me about this in relation to playing over a static minor 7th chord. I can't get my head around what this approach is and why it works. Could you try and explain this? He tried to explain it to me after 6 beers and a couple of shots yesterday, but that didn't work out very well. tongue.gif


The idea is to play over a A7#5#9 which is the dominant to Dm7, if You use Bb melodic minor it gives the A-superlocrian scale which is a very common approach in jazz on dominant chords that leads to a minor chord. It will also sound kinda "out" over a static Dm7 and if You going in/out with D-dorian for instance, it sounds very cool....

//Staffay


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Caelumamittendum
post Feb 6 2010, 07:35 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Feb 6 2010, 06:37 PM) *
The idea is to play over a A7#5#9 which is the dominant to Dm7, if You use Bb melodic minor it gives the A-superlocrian scale which is a very common approach in jazz on dominant chords that leads to a minor chord. It will also sound kinda "out" over a static Dm7 and if You going in/out with D-dorian for instance, it sounds very cool....

//Staffay


See, that's what I don't get. Dm7 + Bb melodic minor: D D# F G A A# C C#. That's 8 notes and not superlocrian to me? Without the D, I geuss it would be A superlocrian, but...yeah...


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Staffy
post Feb 6 2010, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Feb 6 2010, 07:35 PM) *
See, that's what I don't get. Dm7 + Bb melodic minor: D D# F G A A# C C#. That's 8 notes and not superlocrian to me? Without the D, I geuss it would be A superlocrian, but...yeah...


Yeps, Its A-superlocrian ! And then You will be playing on the dominant of the Dm7 .....
A common trick is to think melodic minor a half-step up from the dominant....

//Staffay


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Pedja Simovic
post Feb 6 2010, 08:29 PM
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Ben that is V to I approach I talked about in chat couple of times. You might have missed those sessions ?

Over D min chord you pretend like there is A7 in the background happening to create smooth resolution. Over that A7 you use 7th mode of Melodic minor scale (Altered mode) . A altered mode is A Bb C Db Eb F G A. So you get Root, major 3rd (Db = C#), minor 7th (G) and then you get a lot of tension sounds like b9 (Bb) #9 © b5 or #11 (Eb) also #5 or b13 (F).

Hope that helps?


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Caelumamittendum
post Feb 6 2010, 08:38 PM
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Yeah, I just don't understand where the D of the Dm7 disappears to!?

I see the approach now actually, I think. You pretend there is a A7, overwich you can superimpose from say fifth above, fourth above, one whole tone below and half a step above. The last one is the approach here and therefore Bb melodic minor?

I think it was just out of my understanding-zone for a minute. I can understand the A7 and could understand playing notes from that over the Dm7, but I just couldn't relate the Bb melodic minor to A7 nor Dm7, but I can now!

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Feb 6 2010, 08:46 PM


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Pedja Simovic
post Feb 6 2010, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Feb 6 2010, 08:38 PM) *
Yeah, I just don't understand where the D of the Dm7 disappears to!?

I see the approach now actually, I think. You pretend there is a A7, overwich you can superimpose from say fifth above, fourth above, one whole tone below and half a step above. The last one is the approach here and therefore Bb melodic minor?


You don't need D note in there! This approach is used to create tension and you obviously resolve this into some sort of D min scale/mode/arpeggio/line etc.
A altered is 7th mode of Bb melodic minor correct.


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Caelumamittendum
post Feb 6 2010, 08:47 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Feb 6 2010, 08:41 PM) *
You don't need D note in there! This approach is used to create tension and you obviously resolve this into some sort of D min scale/mode/arpeggio/line etc.
A altered is 7th mode of Bb melodic minor correct.


I think it was just out of my understanding-zone for a minute. I can understand the A7 and could understand playing notes from that over the Dm7, but I just couldn't relate the Bb melodic minor to A7 nor Dm7, but I can now!


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Staffy
post Feb 6 2010, 10:23 PM
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Sorry for intervening in Your thread Pedja I did'nt look at the title.... Btw. Cael, You can use A half-whole (Dimished) as well to create tension, and it does neither has a D ..... or all three dimished scales in fact... tongue.gif

//Staffay


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Caelumamittendum
post Feb 6 2010, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Feb 6 2010, 10:23 PM) *
Sorry for intervening in Your thread Pedja I did'nt look at the title.... Btw. Cael, You can use A half-whole (Dimished) as well to create tension, and it does neither has a D ..... or all three dimished scales in fact... tongue.gif

//Staffay


It is not so much as to "you can use this, this and this" I'm after, but more like: "you can use this, BECAUSE..." etc. Note relation to the chord etc.


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Staffy
post Feb 7 2010, 02:16 AM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Feb 6 2010, 11:39 PM) *
It is not so much as to "you can use this, this and this" I'm after, but more like: "you can use this, BECAUSE..." etc. Note relation to the chord etc.


Regarding A-half/whole tone its really the same as A-superlocrian - it assumes that a A13#9 chord is played which gives the notes A-Bb-B#©-C#-E-F#-G-A, You actually play the dominant and then resolves it as Pedja says. Regarding the other two, a half/whole from D gives both the minor third & fifth & the seventh, eg. the notes in the chord. The third dimished one has the third but major 7th and is probably the most "off" sounding scales of the three dimished one's, but as long as they resolves into the proper notes, its OK. A lot of jazz players shifts among these three, especially on dominant chords to create chromatism, that is later resolved....

I dont think the point is to "over-analyze" the relations between chords and notes in solos if we are talking bout free'er form of music, its rather the concept behind. Actually You can play chord progression with broken chords over a static chord, chromatic patterns, use all the 12 notes - as long as You bringing it back/resolves it. Players like Coltrane, Michael Brecker, Holdsworth amongst others proves that there a lot of freedom in this kind of playing. The rhytm is also a very important aspect here, since when playing a phrase that goes "outside" the regular harmony, it must be made convincing - otherwise it may sound like a mistake....

//Staffay


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