0 0

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Modes, How to get modal sounds?
John72
post Nov 14 2011, 12:35 AM
Post #1


Learning Roadie
*

Group: Members
Posts: 75
Joined: 13-September 11
From: Florida
Member No.: 13.866



I'm trying to learn the modes to expand out of improvising only with the minor pentatonic. I know the 5 caged patterns andstarted practicing over a single chord vamp (usually A minor.) Everything sounds ok (for the most part laugh.gif )

Anyway, lately I've been trying to add different chords to the to the progression to make it more interesting. That sounds ok too. I try to be on the root note of the chord at the change. Sometimes being on the 3rd or 5th of the chord seems to sound ok, too.

So, now I'd like to start experimenting with modes, but can't seem to get a different sound. For instance, a progression of A to G (keeping it simple) using power chords, I start out in A minor. And the way I understand it (probably incorrectly), playing the A minor scale over G is mixolydian? Well, that's the way I've been doing it (even though I didn't understand it as a mode), but it still sounds A minor to me. And I was hoping for a "modal" sound.

Should I try a different chord? Maybe E for phrygian? Or do I need to rethink my understanding of how modes work?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 14 2011, 08:34 AM
Post #2


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 21.397
Joined: 14-June 10
From: Bucharest
Member No.: 10.636



QUOTE (John72 @ Nov 13 2011, 11:35 PM) *
I'm trying to learn the modes to expand out of improvising only with the minor pentatonic. I know the 5 caged patterns andstarted practicing over a single chord vamp (usually A minor.) Everything sounds ok (for the most part laugh.gif )

Anyway, lately I've been trying to add different chords to the to the progression to make it more interesting. That sounds ok too. I try to be on the root note of the chord at the change. Sometimes being on the 3rd or 5th of the chord seems to sound ok, too.

So, now I'd like to start experimenting with modes, but can't seem to get a different sound. For instance, a progression of A to G (keeping it simple) using power chords, I start out in A minor. And the way I understand it (probably incorrectly), playing the A minor scale over G is mixolydian? Well, that's the way I've been doing it (even though I didn't understand it as a mode), but it still sounds A minor to me. And I was hoping for a "modal" sound.

Should I try a different chord? Maybe E for phrygian? Or do I need to rethink my understanding of how modes work?


Hey man smile.gif the first step would be to look at modes as having particular sound characteristics instead of seeing them as positions (maybe you are already doing this)

Now the idea is that each mode has a particular sound, given by the notes which make up that particular mode. There are several possibilities as I see it:

- either associate a mode with every chord type (each chord type has a number of modes which sound interesting when played over that chord, of course, especially emphasizing the modes distinctive notes)

example: you are playing a CM7 chord and you want a Lydian sound over it -> C Lydan has the following structure: C D E F# G A B C
Now the formula for the Lydian mode is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8 so the differentiating sound characteristic of the Lydian mode would be its raised fourth! Emphasize the raised fourth - in the above example, the F# over the CM7 for a genuine Lydian sound!

- play over a modal progression - For instance: You are having the Aadd9 Badd11 (two chords belonging to the 4th and 5th steps of the E major scale) - these chords put together create a Lydian progression (it starts from the 4th step of the E major scale) play the A Lydian mode over these two and it should sound pretty nicely!

These are just 2 examples out of the endless number of possibilities! Explore having these ideas in mind and see what's happening smile.gif I'd be glad to assist you along the way wink.gif

all the best

Cosmin


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
John72
post Nov 16 2011, 03:10 AM
Post #3


Learning Roadie
*

Group: Members
Posts: 75
Joined: 13-September 11
From: Florida
Member No.: 13.866



QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Nov 14 2011, 07:34 AM) *
Hey man smile.gif the first step would be to look at modes as having particular sound characteristics instead of seeing them as positions (maybe you are already doing this)

Now the idea is that each mode has a particular sound, given by the notes which make up that particular mode. There are several possibilities as I see it:

- either associate a mode with every chord type (each chord type has a number of modes which sound interesting when played over that chord, of course, especially emphasizing the modes distinctive notes)

example: you are playing a CM7 chord and you want a Lydian sound over it -> C Lydan has the following structure: C D E F# G A B C
Now the formula for the Lydian mode is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8 so the differentiating sound characteristic of the Lydian mode would be its raised fourth! Emphasize the raised fourth - in the above example, the F# over the CM7 for a genuine Lydian sound!

- play over a modal progression - For instance: You are having the Aadd9 Badd11 (two chords belonging to the 4th and 5th steps of the E major scale) - these chords put together create a Lydian progression (it starts from the 4th step of the E major scale) play the A Lydian mode over these two and it should sound pretty nicely!

These are just 2 examples out of the endless number of possibilities! Explore having these ideas in mind and see what's happening smile.gif I'd be glad to assist you along the way wink.gif

all the best

Cosmin


Thanks Cosmin! This makes sense! And I'm able to get a modal sound now! I guess it's the chords behind the scale that help bring out the particular modal sound?

Now I'm confused where you got the CM7 Aadd9 and Badd11 chords from? Can you point me at some information on building those chords and which modes they're used in?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Nov 16 2011, 11:01 AM
Post #4


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



It would be best to start simple if you want to use modal playing. Start with one chord at the time, so you have time to develop modal sounds and pattern relations.

For example, there are 3 minor modes (aeolian, dorian, phrygian), and 3 major modes (ionian, lydian, mixolydian).

Now, try various minor and major chords. For example loop A minor, and then play Am pentatonic box, and in the same position tryout all three minor modes, and rehearse those fingerings a bit. Then try it over all positions. Then use other minor chords.

Same thing with major chords, loop the major chord, play three major modes, and get used to them.

Then make two powerchord combos like:

A - G

Over these two you have so many options, as these two notes appear in several different keys: Bb major, F major, C major ,G major, D major. Playing out any of these keys can sound right, and depending on the key, modes will shift accordingly.





--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
casinostrat
post Nov 16 2011, 11:23 PM
Post #5


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 452
Joined: 20-January 10
From: The Appalachian Mountains
Member No.: 9.238



QUOTE (John72 @ Nov 13 2011, 11:35 PM) *
I'm trying to learn the modes to expand out of improvising only with the minor pentatonic. I know the 5 caged patterns andstarted practicing over a single chord vamp (usually A minor.) Everything sounds ok (for the most part laugh.gif )

Anyway, lately I've been trying to add different chords to the to the progression to make it more interesting. That sounds ok too. I try to be on the root note of the chord at the change. Sometimes being on the 3rd or 5th of the chord seems to sound ok, too.

So, now I'd like to start experimenting with modes, but can't seem to get a different sound. For instance, a progression of A to G (keeping it simple) using power chords, I start out in A minor. And the way I understand it (probably incorrectly), playing the A minor scale over G is mixolydian? Well, that's the way I've been doing it (even though I didn't understand it as a mode), but it still sounds A minor to me. And I was hoping for a "modal" sound.

Should I try a different chord? Maybe E for phrygian? Or do I need to rethink my understanding of how modes work?



QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Nov 14 2011, 07:34 AM) *
Hey man smile.gif the first step would be to look at modes as having particular sound characteristics instead of seeing them as positions (maybe you are already doing this)

Now the idea is that each mode has a particular sound, given by the notes which make up that particular mode. There are several possibilities as I see it:

- either associate a mode with every chord type (each chord type has a number of modes which sound interesting when played over that chord, of course, especially emphasizing the modes distinctive notes)

example: you are playing a CM7 chord and you want a Lydian sound over it -> C Lydan has the following structure: C D E F# G A B C
Now the formula for the Lydian mode is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8 so the differentiating sound characteristic of the Lydian mode would be its raised fourth! Emphasize the raised fourth - in the above example, the F# over the CM7 for a genuine Lydian sound!

- play over a modal progression - For instance: You are having the Aadd9 Badd11 (two chords belonging to the 4th and 5th steps of the E major scale) - these chords put together create a Lydian progression (it starts from the 4th step of the E major scale) play the A Lydian mode over these two and it should sound pretty nicely!

These are just 2 examples out of the endless number of possibilities! Explore having these ideas in mind and see what's happening smile.gif I'd be glad to assist you along the way wink.gif

all the best

Cosmin


I'm really glad John72 posted this question, since I was thinking of posting this very type of question myself, but couldn't quite figure out how to word it. Cosmin, your answer and Ivan's are really beginning to help me to understand what a modal sound is and how to get that sound. I have one question regarding the example using a C major 7 Chord in Cosmin's post. I can see exactly what you mean about playing C Lydian Scale over it to achieve a true lydian sound, what I am kinda confused about is this.... Lets say for example that you are playing that C major 7 Chord within the context and key of C major and you still want a lydian sound. Now, would you still use C Lydian, even though that particular mode is from the forth degree of G major, or would you play F Lydian, which is the scale built upon the forth degree of C major? I'm guessing you would still want to use C Lydian, but thought I'd ask just to make sure! biggrin.gif


--------------------
My Sound Cloud Profile: http://soundcloud.com/casinostrat

Gear I Use:

Guitars: Gibson: Les Paul Custom, ES-339, and Faded Flying V
Fender: American Stratocaster Deluxe (I think?)
Epiphone: Les Paul 56' Gold Top and Les Paul Standard, Casino
Yamaha: FG720S Accoustic

Amps: Fender Champ, Peavey Bandit 112, and an ancient Epiphone Amp:)

Effects: Digitech RP 500 Effects Pedal Picks: Dunlop Jazz IIIs

Practice, Practice, Practice, and remember Every Artist Does Get Better Eventually!

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 16 2011, 11:30 PM
Post #6


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 21.397
Joined: 14-June 10
From: Bucharest
Member No.: 10.636



QUOTE (casinostrat @ Nov 16 2011, 10:23 PM) *
I'm really glad John72 posted this question, since I was thinking of posting this very type of question myself, but couldn't quite figure out how to word it. Cosmin, your answer and Ivan's are really beginning to help me to understand what a modal sound is and how to get that sound. I have one question regarding the example using a C major 7 Chord in Cosmin's post. I can see exactly what you mean about playing C Lydian Scale over it to achieve a true lydian sound, what I am kinda confused about is this.... Lets say for example that you are playing that C major 7 Chord within the context and key of C major and you still want a lydian sound. Now, would you still use C Lydian, even though that particular mode is from the forth degree of G major, or would you play F Lydian, which is the scale built upon the forth degree of C major? I'm guessing you would still want to use C Lydian, but thought I'd ask just to make sure! biggrin.gif


If you want to get the Lydian flavor over CM7, you should use the C Lydian. Now, it all depends on the way the chord progression is built smile.gif the longer a chord is played (a greater number of bars) the more time and space you have to play all sorts of different things over it smile.gif it's as simple as that. Now the idea is to manage a smooth transition, back to the Ionian mode for instance or whatever other mode you will choose to use over the rest of the progression. Check out the idea of pivoting later on! There are common notes between chords belonging to different scales - but these should be used in the case of extreme harmonic shifts. Check this lesson out for such an example: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Common-Notes/


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
casinostrat
post Nov 19 2011, 05:24 AM
Post #7


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 452
Joined: 20-January 10
From: The Appalachian Mountains
Member No.: 9.238



QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Nov 16 2011, 10:30 PM) *
If you want to get the Lydian flavor over CM7, you should use the C Lydian. Now, it all depends on the way the chord progression is built smile.gif the longer a chord is played (a greater number of bars) the more time and space you have to play all sorts of different things over it smile.gif it's as simple as that. Now the idea is to manage a smooth transition, back to the Ionian mode for instance or whatever other mode you will choose to use over the rest of the progression. Check out the idea of pivoting later on! There are common notes between chords belonging to different scales - but these should be used in the case of extreme harmonic shifts. Check this lesson out for such an example: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Common-Notes/


Thanks Man! I'm beginning to understand this concept a little more, and it seems to me that while knowing the key of any given song is important, knowing what the individual chords are within the piece is very important in developing a truly modal sound. Just like Ivan recommended I have been looping stuff like a C Major 7 Chord vamp ( Which by the way I know what a vamp is thanks to one of your posts in another forum biggrin.gif ) and playing various modes over it to get an idea of what they sound like. I'm going to work through your lesson on common notes that you linked, it looks interesting and very helpful, and that PRS is just beautiful!


--------------------
My Sound Cloud Profile: http://soundcloud.com/casinostrat

Gear I Use:

Guitars: Gibson: Les Paul Custom, ES-339, and Faded Flying V
Fender: American Stratocaster Deluxe (I think?)
Epiphone: Les Paul 56' Gold Top and Les Paul Standard, Casino
Yamaha: FG720S Accoustic

Amps: Fender Champ, Peavey Bandit 112, and an ancient Epiphone Amp:)

Effects: Digitech RP 500 Effects Pedal Picks: Dunlop Jazz IIIs

Practice, Practice, Practice, and remember Every Artist Does Get Better Eventually!

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 19 2011, 11:23 PM
Post #8


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 21.397
Joined: 14-June 10
From: Bucharest
Member No.: 10.636



QUOTE (casinostrat @ Nov 19 2011, 04:24 AM) *
Thanks Man! I'm beginning to understand this concept a little more, and it seems to me that while knowing the key of any given song is important, knowing what the individual chords are within the piece is very important in developing a truly modal sound. Just like Ivan recommended I have been looping stuff like a C Major 7 Chord vamp ( Which by the way I know what a vamp is thanks to one of your posts in another forum biggrin.gif ) and playing various modes over it to get an idea of what they sound like. I'm going to work through your lesson on common notes that you linked, it looks interesting and very helpful, and that PRS is just beautiful!


Thank you very much smile.gif glad I could help out! If you need more info, please do go ahead and ask us wink.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Nov 20 2011, 01:10 AM
Post #9


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



Glad that you found it helpful mate.

One more interesting thing, while we are on the topic of 7th chords:

- major7th chord is being built out of Ionian and Lydian mode.
- minor modes do not have that rule, all three minor modes (Aeolian, Dorian, Phrygian) build minor7th chord.

dominant7th and diminished7th chords have only one mode per chord, which gives them more "rigid" music function then other chords.


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
casinostrat
post Nov 20 2011, 01:37 AM
Post #10


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 452
Joined: 20-January 10
From: The Appalachian Mountains
Member No.: 9.238



QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Nov 20 2011, 12:10 AM) *
Glad that you found it helpful mate.

One more interesting thing, while we are on the topic of 7th chords:

- major7th chord is being built out of Ionian and Lydian mode.
- minor modes do not have that rule, all three minor modes (Aeolian, Dorian, Phrygian) build minor7th chord.

dominant7th and diminished7th chords have only one mode per chord, which gives them more "rigid" music function then other chords.


Thanks Ivan! The door of my understanding this subject is opening up a little more each time one of you guys posts something here. smile.gif You mentioned that the major 7th chord is built out of the Ionian and lydian mode. This made me wonder about the mixolydian mode, and why it is different. So I went to the scale generator and compared C Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian modes. I noticed that while both C Ionian and Lydian have a natural 7th the Mixolydian has a flat 7th. Is this the reason that the Major 7th Chord is built out of the Ionian and Lydian scale, but not the Mixolydian? I noticed that all three of the minor modes have a flat seventh as well, is this the reason they build a minor 7th chord? This kind of stuff is very interesting to me, since I love music theory almost as much as I do playing music! wink.gif



--------------------
My Sound Cloud Profile: http://soundcloud.com/casinostrat

Gear I Use:

Guitars: Gibson: Les Paul Custom, ES-339, and Faded Flying V
Fender: American Stratocaster Deluxe (I think?)
Epiphone: Les Paul 56' Gold Top and Les Paul Standard, Casino
Yamaha: FG720S Accoustic

Amps: Fender Champ, Peavey Bandit 112, and an ancient Epiphone Amp:)

Effects: Digitech RP 500 Effects Pedal Picks: Dunlop Jazz IIIs

Practice, Practice, Practice, and remember Every Artist Does Get Better Eventually!

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Nov 20 2011, 04:20 PM
Post #11


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



Yes, exactly so! smile.gif

And yes, you are right about minor7th chords too. The minor 7th note is on the same position in all three of these modes, so all three modes form the same chord/arpeggio.

After this rule, the logistics of a diatonic chordal progression is very straightforward. There are only 4 chords to learn by ear: major7th, minor7th, dominant7th and diminished7th. Each of these have very distinctive sound, you can easily learn to differentiate between them. Probably you already can. Now it's just the matter of: can you play modes in question over various chords? Because this is the foundation of modal playing.

This opens up some cool possibilities for practice: i.e. you can place these 4 chords in random order in a progression, and then practice modal playing over them. This will strengthen the ear to differentiate between them and sharpen your muscle memory so fingers jump to corresponding modes without too much thinking. Using various song standards is also great option.

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: Nov 20 2011, 04:20 PM


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 20 2011, 06:03 PM
Post #12


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 21.397
Joined: 14-June 10
From: Bucharest
Member No.: 10.636



There's also the minor Major 7 (1 b3 5 7) which is not used when harmonizing a scale but it is a chord made up by using 7ths.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
casinostrat
post Nov 21 2011, 02:08 AM
Post #13


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 452
Joined: 20-January 10
From: The Appalachian Mountains
Member No.: 9.238



QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Nov 20 2011, 03:20 PM) *
Yes, exactly so! smile.gif

And yes, you are right about minor7th chords too. The minor 7th note is on the same position in all three of these modes, so all three modes form the same chord/arpeggio.

After this rule, the logistics of a diatonic chordal progression is very straightforward. There are only 4 chords to learn by ear: major7th, minor7th, dominant7th and diminished7th. Each of these have very distinctive sound, you can easily learn to differentiate between them. Probably you already can. Now it's just the matter of: can you play modes in question over various chords? Because this is the foundation of modal playing.

This opens up some cool possibilities for practice: i.e. you can place these 4 chords in random order in a progression, and then practice modal playing over them. This will strengthen the ear to differentiate between them and sharpen your muscle memory so fingers jump to corresponding modes without too much thinking. Using various song standards is also great option.



QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Nov 20 2011, 05:03 PM) *
There's also the minor Major 7 (1 b3 5 7) which is not used when harmonizing a scale but it is a chord made up by using 7ths.


Thanks guys! Yes Ivan I can tell the difference between these chords by ear, and I know all the 3 note per string modal scales up and down the neck, I just didn't really understand the theory on how to use this knowledge in actual playing in order to get a true modal sound, but this stuff has really helped! From time to time on the forums I see people talking about modal formulas, and they have something like this:

C Lydian mode: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

In the lydian mode, the four is sharped, but when writing out this formula do you always use the Ionian mode as a starting point for figuring out what may be sharp, flat or natural? If you do and then for example if you wanted to write out a formula for the Aeolian (Natural Minor) mode would the formula be:

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

If you do go by the Ionian in determining the flats, sharps, or naturals in a mode I think Locrian could be tough tongue.gif

Cosmin: minor Major 7th? I can see where you can get that because you have the flat 3 which gives you the minor part, and you have the natural 7th which is major. Would a chord like that show up in something like the harmonic or melodic minor scale, which have altered (Raised) 7ths?


--------------------
My Sound Cloud Profile: http://soundcloud.com/casinostrat

Gear I Use:

Guitars: Gibson: Les Paul Custom, ES-339, and Faded Flying V
Fender: American Stratocaster Deluxe (I think?)
Epiphone: Les Paul 56' Gold Top and Les Paul Standard, Casino
Yamaha: FG720S Accoustic

Amps: Fender Champ, Peavey Bandit 112, and an ancient Epiphone Amp:)

Effects: Digitech RP 500 Effects Pedal Picks: Dunlop Jazz IIIs

Practice, Practice, Practice, and remember Every Artist Does Get Better Eventually!

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 21 2011, 08:30 AM
Post #14


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 21.397
Joined: 14-June 10
From: Bucharest
Member No.: 10.636



QUOTE (casinostrat @ Nov 21 2011, 01:08 AM) *
Thanks guys! Yes Ivan I can tell the difference between these chords by ear, and I know all the 3 note per string modal scales up and down the neck, I just didn't really understand the theory on how to use this knowledge in actual playing in order to get a true modal sound, but this stuff has really helped! From time to time on the forums I see people talking about modal formulas, and they have something like this:

C Lydian mode: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

In the lydian mode, the four is sharped, but when writing out this formula do you always use the Ionian mode as a starting point for figuring out what may be sharp, flat or natural? If you do and then for example if you wanted to write out a formula for the Aeolian (Natural Minor) mode would the formula be:

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

If you do go by the Ionian in determining the flats, sharps, or naturals in a mode I think Locrian could be tough tongue.gif

Cosmin: minor Major 7th? I can see where you can get that because you have the flat 3 which gives you the minor part, and you have the natural 7th which is major. Would a chord like that show up in something like the harmonic or melodic minor scale, which have altered (Raised) 7ths?


Yes, you can play the harmonic minor mode and the ascending melodic minor mode over the mM7 chords smile.gif and yes, the Locrian is the most altered of them biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Cosmin Lupu: Nov 21 2011, 08:30 AM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 2nd September 2014 - 05:48 PM