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> Dinaga's Mode Method
Cosmin Lupu
post Mar 25 2012, 08:50 AM
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Hehe biggrin.gif this is your place buddy wink.gif let's discuss modal tricks here. As i said, we can start based on the things you will read in the lesson notes thread and we can start with each mode then. I'll try and underline all sorts of tricks and after that, you will try and implement them over backing tracks biggrin.gif what say you my friend?

Cosmin


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Dinaga
post Mar 25 2012, 11:26 AM
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Hey Cosmin! Thanks a lot my friend smile.gif

I will check out your v-chat lesson notes topic in great detail and when I'm done with that, I'll probably have lots' of questions biggrin.gif

Cheers mate, really appreciate it wink.gif


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Cosmin Lupu
post Mar 25 2012, 08:15 PM
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Can't wait to exchange impressions and ideas mate! Let's rock!!


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Dinaga
post Mar 26 2012, 11:17 PM
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Whooooosh. Well I'm not ashamed to admit that my music theory knowledge is less than pathetic.

A whole new world opened to me. I mean, I have been familiar to the basic stuff like intervals and scale construction, but I feel that before I even think of diving into modes, I must learn chord constructions and chord progressions better. I never really sat down and learned this, so that's what I'll be doing these days, just to set up the basis so I can understand you better. smile.gif

Oh and your v-chat notes are freakin' AWESOME biggrin.gif So much useful info! I already see that I'll be learning a lot from this, so I can't wait to gain some pre-knowledge so I can start jammin' in modes smile.gif It's great that you tab out ideas and even put video clip examples like the one for Phyrigian mode wink.gif

This post has been edited by Dinaga: Mar 26 2012, 11:28 PM


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Cosmin Lupu
post Mar 27 2012, 10:31 AM
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Hey D-man! Good to know tongue.gif let me know what you started with and what you'd like to ask if there's anything you'd like to develop wink.gif

Cosmin


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Dinaga
post Mar 27 2012, 03:08 PM
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Alright, finally I'm thinking about everything in intervals, not boxes and shapes. I know the construction of basic triads and the four types of 7th chords.

I'll post some of the things I learned here so you can correct me if I'm wrong:



* About many names for one interval

If you raise a Major interval by a semitone it becomes augmented, and if you lower a Minor interval by a semitone it becomes diminished.
Also, if you sharp a Perfect interval it becomes augmented and if you flat it it becomes diminished.

So, we can say, for example, that:

- perfect 4th is the same as augmented 3rd,
- augmented 5th is the same as minor 6th,
- major 3rd is the same as diminished 4th.

But it isn't very common in reality to call a perfect 4th - an augmented 3rd, is it? ohmy.gif
That's what confuses me. Because there can be more than one name for the same interval, I suppose there is a convention for naming these intervals when building chords so things don't become too complicated?

I saw in your lesson notes that you write a formula for each mode like this:
Lydian mode: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
If I got it correctly, this notation is not absolute (like the discussion about intervals above), but is relative to the corresponding major scale, so for the key of C, the Lydian mode is played exactly like the C major scale with the exception that fourth note of the C major scale (F) is sharpened, so the mode is C D E F# G A B C. I know these questions are stupid but it's the only way to learn biggrin.gif

* About 7th chords and extentions

7th chords are built by taking a triad (which already has a root, a major or minor 3rd and a perfect fifth) and "spicing it up" with a minor or major 7th to gain a new flavor, thus the four possible combinations of 7th chords.

That 7th in the chord is the most important note in the chord (obviously besides the 3rd which determines if the whole chord is major or minor), and 7th note in the chord is actually essential for modes, right?

Actually, if I got everything correctly, many modes actually have a 7th chord as a root chord, is this correct? I guess that "flavor 7th" note is very important for modes...

Also, when we extend our 7th chords, for example a if we want to extend a C7 chord with an added major 2nd (which would here be D) we will call it C9, because the D is from the next octave so it is actually C(7 + 2) = C9?

And this should work for every 7th chord, so if we have a C Major 7th chord (I suppose you can write it as C7M) and add a note D to it we get C7M9. Or if we add a D to a Cm7 chord we get Cm9?

But this "adding business" happens when we add a major 2nd to a chord. But what if we add a minor 2nd to a chord? I saw in Guitar Pro that one of the names for a C7 chord with added C# note (which is a minor 2nd) is called "C9-", so I'm wondering if this is how musicians really call these chords...



That's it for now... Sorry if this is a bit too trivial but I'll feel much more confident if I ask someone with experience to confirm if my way of thinking is OK. smile.gif I suppose as I dig more into this, I'll have more questions biggrin.gif Thanks in advance mate!


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Cosmin Lupu
post Mar 27 2012, 03:19 PM
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Mate, I'll answer everything in about 2 hours when I get inside the house again biggrin.gif do we have a deal?

Cosmin

QUOTE (Dinaga @ Mar 27 2012, 02:08 PM) *
Alright, finally I'm thinking about everything in intervals, not boxes and shapes. I know the construction of basic triads and the four types of 7th chords.

I'll post some of the things I learned here so you can correct me if I'm wrong:



* About many names for one interval

If you raise a Major interval by a semitone it becomes augmented, and if you lower a Minor interval by a semitone it becomes diminished.
Also, if you sharp a Perfect interval it becomes augmented and if you flat it it becomes diminished.

So, we can say, for example, that:

- perfect 4th is the same as augmented 3rd,
- augmented 5th is the same as minor 6th,
- major 3rd is the same as diminished 4th.

But it isn't very common in reality to call a perfect 4th - an augmented 3rd, is it? ohmy.gif
That's what confuses me. Because there can be more than one name for the same interval, I suppose there is a convention for naming these intervals when building chords so things don't become too complicated?

I saw in your lesson notes that you write a formula for each mode like this:
Lydian mode: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
If I got it correctly, this notation is not absolute (like the discussion about intervals above), but is relative to the corresponding major scale, so for the key of C, the Lydian mode is played exactly like the C major scale with the exception that fourth note of the C major scale (F) is sharpened, so the mode is C D E F# G A B C. I know these questions are stupid but it's the only way to learn biggrin.gif

* About 7th chords and extentions

7th chords are built by taking a triad (which already has a root, a major or minor 3rd and a perfect fifth) and "spicing it up" with a minor or major 7th to gain a new flavor, thus the four possible combinations of 7th chords.

That 7th in the chord is the most important note in the chord (obviously besides the 3rd which determines if the whole chord is major or minor), and 7th note in the chord is actually essential for modes, right?

Actually, if I got everything correctly, many modes actually have a 7th chord as a root chord, is this correct? I guess that "flavor 7th" note is very important for modes...

Also, when we extend our 7th chords, for example a if we want to extend a C7 chord with an added major 2nd (which would here be D) we will call it C9, because the D is from the next octave so it is actually C(7 + 2) = C9?

And this should work for every 7th chord, so if we have a C Major 7th chord (I suppose you can write it as C7M) and add a note D to it we get C7M9. Or if we add a D to a Cm7 chord we get Cm9?

But this "adding business" happens when we add a major 2nd to a chord. But what if we add a minor 2nd to a chord? I saw in Guitar Pro that one of the names for a C7 chord with added C# note (which is a minor 2nd) is called "C9-", so I'm wondering if this is how musicians really call these chords...



That's it for now... Sorry if this is a bit too trivial but I'll feel much more confident if I ask someone with experience to confirm if my way of thinking is OK. smile.gif I suppose as I dig more into this, I'll have more questions biggrin.gif Thanks in advance mate!



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Dinaga
post Mar 27 2012, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Mar 27 2012, 02:19 PM) *
Mate, I'll answer everything in about 2 hours when I get inside the house again biggrin.gif do we have a deal?

Cosmin


It's a deal! Thanks man smile.gif


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Cosmin Lupu
post Mar 27 2012, 06:28 PM
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If you raise a Major interval by a semitone it becomes augmented, and if you lower a Minor interval by a semitone it becomes diminished.
Also, if you sharp a Perfect interval it becomes augmented and if you flat it it becomes diminished.

You can say that but the names are just in theory as not all intervals are usually bearing these functions in reality.

So, we can say, for example, that:

- perfect 4th is the same as augmented 3rd, - you can say that
- augmented 5th is the same as minor 6th, - yes
- major 3rd is the same as diminished 4th. - the diminished 4th is not usual so it's not a big deal

But it isn't very common in reality to call a perfect 4th - an augmented 3rd, is it? ohmy.gif
That's what confuses me. Because there can be more than one name for the same interval, I suppose there is a convention for naming these intervals when building chords so things don't become too complicated?

Usually it depends on the context smile.gif

I saw in your lesson notes that you write a formula for each mode like this:
Lydian mode: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
If I got it correctly, this notation is not absolute (like the discussion about intervals above), but is relative to the corresponding major scale, so for the key of C, the Lydian mode is played exactly like the C major scale with the exception that fourth note of the C major scale (F) is sharpened, so the mode is C D E F# G A B C. I know these questions are stupid but it's the only way to learn biggrin.gif

You are very right but not stupid wink.gif

* About 7th chords and extentions

7th chords are built by taking a triad (which already has a root, a major or minor 3rd and a perfect fifth) and "spicing it up" with a minor or major 7th to gain a new flavor, thus the four possible combinations of 7th chords.

That 7th in the chord is the most important note in the chord (obviously besides the 3rd which determines if the whole chord is major or minor), and 7th note in the chord is actually essential for modes, right?

Actually, if I got everything correctly, many modes actually have a 7th chord as a root chord, is this correct? I guess that "flavor 7th" note is very important for modes...

Yes and no, it depends, by this meaning that you can harmonize a mode by using only minor and major chords smile.gif

Also, when we extend our 7th chords, for example a if we want to extend a C7 chord with an added major 2nd (which would here be D) we will call it C9, because the D is from the next octave so it is actually C(7 + 2) = C9?

Yes sir!

And this should work for every 7th chord, so if we have a C Major 7th chord (I suppose you can write it as C7M) and add a note D to it we get C7M9. Or if we add a D to a Cm7 chord we get Cm9?

But this "adding business" happens when we add a major 2nd to a chord. But what if we add a minor 2nd to a chord? I saw in Guitar Pro that one of the names for a C7 chord with added C# note (which is a minor 2nd) is called "C9-", so I'm wondering if this is how musicians really call these chords...

Yes mate smile.gif you understood everything just perfectly!


That's it for now... Sorry if this is a bit too trivial but I'll feel much more confident if I ask someone with experience to confirm if my way of thinking is OK. smile.gif I suppose as I dig more into this, I'll have more questions biggrin.gif Thanks in advance mate!

No problem! You are very diligent and careful! I like that! Bring on the questions man!

Cosmin


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Dinaga
post Mar 27 2012, 06:58 PM
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Thanks a lot for your quick answers, Cosmin! smile.gif I'm glad I got this basic stuff right because I'm about to go deeper smile.gif And questions will be brought biggrin.gif


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Cosmin Lupu
post Mar 28 2012, 08:45 AM
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QUOTE (Dinaga @ Mar 27 2012, 05:58 PM) *
Thanks a lot for your quick answers, Cosmin! smile.gif I'm glad I got this basic stuff right because I'm about to go deeper smile.gif And questions will be brought biggrin.gif


Go for it mate! smile.gif


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Dinaga
post Apr 3 2012, 11:13 AM
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Hey mate, I know you're busy with all the students - I'm not going to ask you questions right now - just checking in to post the progress. smile.gif I will not be playing much in the next week or so because I have exams and it will be ultra-time consuming! So I have to study hard now in order to pass all exams so I'll have plenty of time for guitar again wink.gif

However, I learned a lot about constructing chord progressions and which scales are related to which progressions. In my next post (when I get some more free time) I will probably post some of those progressions along with the scales I used so you can check out whether it's correct or not wink.gif

Meanwhile, I found this EXCELLENT video by Joe Satriani about modes, and it helped a lot biggrin.gif



I like his quote on how "when you're past the musical part you start to feel in modes" smile.gif



The 2nd vid is maybe even more inspiring because it's al about the feel in this one - "The fewer the notes a chord has, the more freedom you have to play over it".

I think that it's good that I realized that I don't really know that much and there's a lot more to explore smile.gif The journey is the most interesting part, more important than the goal itself. Can't wait to get back to this smile.gif

This post has been edited by Dinaga: Apr 3 2012, 11:26 AM


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Cosmin Lupu
post Apr 3 2012, 03:30 PM
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Hey mate biggrin.gif exactly, if you only have a power chord, imagine all the possibilities tongue.gif Satch's videos are truly inspirational and I am looking forward to expanding this discussion smile.gif who knows what we can learn from each other?

Cosmin


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Dinaga
post Apr 16 2012, 10:45 PM
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Hi Cosmin! smile.gif I'm back on track.
I learned about building chords and I have now started with the Dorian mode.
Before I get into the mode, I have some questions about chord/scale relationships.


If I got it correctly from the GMC Guitar Theory Grimoire book, chords that "fit" the scale are built by taking the scale notes, for example C major:
C D E F G A B C

and then for each note in the scale, we take a note, skip a note, take a note, skip a note, take a note and we have the basic triad for that note.

So for the C major scale it would be:
C + E + G = C chord
D + F + A = Dm chord
E + G + B = Em chord
F + A + C = F chord
G + B + D = G chord
A + C + D = Am chord
B + D + F = Bdim chord

Now we have triads which fit over the scale of C major.
Anyway, my question is this: What if we want to build more complicated chord progressions, say - if we want to use seventh chords instead of triads? Or sus chords? Is the rule for this - First build all the basic triads by applying the "take a note, skip a note rule" above, and then add whichever additional notes we want, as long as they are in the scale?

Does that mean that while in the key of C major instead of G chord we can play any variation of G chord which has new notes from the C major scale? I know that it gets down to just listening to the music and feeling what's best, but I like to have a strong foundation - a "safe" area which can't fail biggrin.gif



Question 2 - How did you memorize mode positions/notes? Did you really remember all the notes and "calculated intervals on the fly" while playing, or you had some other method?

I somehow always tend to relate all the modes to the pentatonic scale, because you really can't go wrong with pentatonic. For example if playing in B Dorian I would visualize B minor pentatonic and then add other notes specific for B Dorian mode.
Or - because Dorian is a "minor mode" - I would even relate it to the minor scale (which I know well) and just change the 6th note, which differs from the B minor (Aeolian) scale. Just wanted to see how you coped with this smile.gif


Question 3 - Is it usually the best practice that the root chord of any scale/mode is a "strong" chord, like just a triad? Is it common for a song to have say 7th chord as root chord?


Question 4: in your Dorian Lesson Notes (January 26 2012) you wrote:

Typical progressions: Im IV; Im IIM; Im bIII IV; Im VM IV Im; Im IIm bIII IIm

Now I see that 'Im IV' means: First chord is the minor chord of the first note in the scale, the next chord is a major chord from the 4th note of the scale.

But what does 'bIII' mean? Major chord from the flattened 3rd note of the scale? It seems just weird to me...


Question 5: How do you make chord progressions? Do you just take the "chords that fit nicely over the scale" which I discussed earlier and experiment with them so you can come up with basically anything? That's what I always did anyway. Yeah it looks like a really stupid question but I better ask now than live in denial biggrin.gif I suspect that certain intervals have different meanings for a song (for example, a specific interval for a transition to another mood), but I haven't really thought about that in practice... I always went "with the feel"...


Question 5: Is there anything else you can tell me about the Dorian mode? Like when you use it or such. smile.gif It does have a jazzy/blues vibe to it but I don't think it's so common in say, heavy metal or hard rock...



Sorry if I overloaded you with questions mate smile.gif
I might record something in Dorian mode but with my own chord progression just so you can check it out smile.gif I think of doing this for every mode, one by one. It will be fun smile.gif

This post has been edited by Dinaga: Apr 16 2012, 11:03 PM


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Dinaga
post Apr 19 2012, 04:33 PM
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OK, nevermind, I sort of answered these questions myself already. I downloaded a lot of mode backing tracks from GMC lessons, and I'll play along to them and memorize the mode positions and special characteristics that way.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Apr 20 2012, 09:23 AM
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Alright bro, you sure? Let me know if there's anything else I can assist you with wink.gif

Hope you'll make it to the next session smile.gif

Cosmin


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Dinaga
post Apr 21 2012, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Apr 20 2012, 08:23 AM) *
Alright bro, you sure? Let me know if there's anything else I can assist you with wink.gif

Hope you'll make it to the next session smile.gif

Cosmin


Alright, I practiced all of the modes besides Locrian and learned how to memorize them, so now the real challenge begins - applying that knowledge smile.gif
I relate everything to Ionian (major) and Aeolian (minor) mode, because I've been playing minor and major scales for years.

As for memorizing the patterns, I use a somewhat hybrid approach of CAGED system and knowing the intervals. I know the "boxes" for the major and the minor scale well, and then I apply my interval knowledge to construct modes.

Soo...

Lydian = Ionian with sharp 4th note,
Mixolydian = Ionian with flat 7th note,

Dorian = Aeolian with sharp 6th note,
Phyrigian = Aeolian with flat 2nd note.

And Phyrigian Dominant is the same as Phyrigian but with additional sharp 3rd note. (I love this one biggrin.gif) BTW why is it called "Dominant"? Are all variations of scales which have a Major 7th in them called dominant?

As chord progressions are the main reason that specific modes have specific flavour, I now want to create a backing track to incorporate all the modes in just one same key, to shift moods and emphasize the differences. I think relative modes (which you discussed in the last v-chat) are too advanced for me, at least in this stage. Later I'll dive into that smile.gif


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Dinaga
post Apr 21 2012, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (Dinaga @ Apr 21 2012, 02:13 PM) *
And Phyrigian Dominant is the same as Phyrigian but with additional sharp 3rd note. (I love this one biggrin.gif) BTW why is it called "Dominant"? Are all variations of scales which have a Major 7th in them called dominant?


Yeah, I've gone nuts and started talking to myself, but I'll use this topic as my personal noteboard tongue.gif I got it now - every dominant scale has major 3rd and minor 7th, just like the dominant chord - duh tongue.gif


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Cosmin Lupu
post Apr 22 2012, 06:16 PM
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Fine observations my friend! smile.gif I have an idea biggrin.gif Why don't you cook up the progressions, let me know what mode you intend to use and we can start swapping modal licks over the tracks you create smile.gif we shall record short phrases emphasizing on various modal ideas

Are ya in?

Cosmin

This post has been edited by Cosmin Lupu: Apr 22 2012, 06:17 PM


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Dinaga
post Apr 22 2012, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Apr 22 2012, 05:16 PM) *
Fine observations my friend! smile.gif I have an idea biggrin.gif Why don't you cook up the progressions, let me know what mode you intend to use and we can start swapping modal licks over the tracks you create smile.gif we shall record short phrases emphasizing on various modal ideas

Are ya in?

Cosmin


That's awesome mate! biggrin.gif

I am definitely in, will post my cookings here! smile.gif


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