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> Exotic Scales - Half-whole Diminished
Andrew Cockburn
post Jun 24 2007, 06:43 PM
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Exotic Scales - Half Whole Diminished



The Half-Whole diminished scale is one of a larger class of 8 tone scales known generically as BeBop scales. It is actually a mode of the Diminished scale, and owing to its construction and the fact that it has 8 tones, it actually repeats its pattern every 2 steps, meaning that it can serve as multiple modes for the parent scale. In this case it is modes II, IV, VI and VIII, whilst the parent scale (The Whole-Half diminished) serves as the other modes.

This scale is used a lot in Jazz, and plays well over a range of diminished chords. The Half-whole scale is commonly used over a Dominant chord too, and while this seems like a strange choice (m7b5 chords should suit it better) it yields some altered tones that jazzers like.

Number of tones : 8

Intervals : 1,b2,b3,3,#4,5,6,b7

Formula : 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2

Characteristic Chords : Half Diminished, Diminished, Minor 7, Diminished 7

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This post has been edited by Andrew Cockburn: Jun 26 2007, 01:47 AM


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Kaneda
post Jun 24 2007, 08:51 PM
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If you don't like to listen to jazz, Stravinsky is probably the most accessible "classical" composer to use it - and he uses it a lot tongue.gif First composer to use it in western music was probably Liszt, although Rimsky-Korsakov claimed to have discovered it (he used it later than Liszt, though). So, it's also been known as the "Rimsky-Korsakov-scale".

Other than that, I know some metal bands have made use of it, but I'm not really a metal head, so don't ask me who wink.gif
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Anastasio123
post Jun 27 2007, 06:11 AM
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QUOTE (Kaneda @ Jun 24 2007, 03:51 PM) *
If you don't like to listen to jazz, Stravinsky is probably the most accessible "classical" composer to use it - and he uses it a lot tongue.gif First composer to use it in western music was probably Liszt, although Rimsky-Korsakov claimed to have discovered it (he used it later than Liszt, though). So, it's also been known as the "Rimsky-Korsakov-scale".

Other than that, I know some metal bands have made use of it, but I'm not really a metal head, so don't ask me who wink.gif



Stravinsky is one of my favorite composers, so I'll enjoy trying to sp[ot this scale in one of his movements. Thanks for the insight wink.gif
I have to say that I'll have to get used to the eight tones, most scales ive memorised have only seven intervals, so this will definitely be an interesting change of pace.


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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Jul 2 2007, 02:45 AM
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Didnt shawn lane play in diminshed scales alot for long legato runs ?



as seen possibly here : http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...h&plindex=0


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Kaneda
post Jul 2 2007, 07:25 AM
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QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Jul 2 2007, 03:45 AM) *
Didnt shawn lane play in diminshed scales alot for long legato runs ?
as seen possibly here : http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...h&plindex=0


Haven't heard a lot of Shawn's music, but in that video, pretty much. He was playing diminished chords in arpeggios (i.e., 3 semitones = 3 frets between each note), and "stacking them", so that we have, for example:

CODE
Edim  - E  G  Bb
Bbdim - Bb Db E


... then start over from "the new E". Or, in other terms, he's playing the notes of the chord Edim7 (E G Bb Db)

Then when he expanded it to "outside type playing", moving this pattern chromatically, if he moved it 1 fret up (= 1 semitone), he got:

CODE
Fdim - F  Ab B
Bdim - B  D  F


... then start over. Or, in other terms, he's playing the notes of the chord Fdim7 (F Ab B D)

If we combine the notes of those two sets of chords:

CODE
  E  G  Bb Db
+ F  Ab B  D  =

E F G Ab Bb B Db D E


... we have the E half-whole diminished scale (as seen in Andrew's example fretboard above).

To stay in that scale, you'd then move up 2 frets, rather than 1 (to start with a Gdim, rather than an F#dim, which doesn't fit into our E H/W dim scale). Actually, if you did start from the F#dim, you'd have played all the 12 notes in the chromatic scale.

This is what gives these two kinds of scales their "diminished" name - they can be seen as combining the notes of two diminished 7th chords.

But still, it's really playing (broken) chords moreso than melodic material based on the scale, so I'm not totally sure I'd call it playing in a diminished scale. smile.gif And yet, the sound is more "in that scale" than in any major or minor key.

This post has been edited by Kaneda: Jul 2 2007, 07:31 AM
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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Jul 2 2007, 05:27 PM
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Thanks Kaneda, that actual helped me quite alot! smile.gif









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Rockwouldbe
post Jul 22 2007, 02:09 PM
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funny andrew i am just practicing this one , it is insaine


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Oxac
post Nov 3 2008, 04:30 PM
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I just had a jazz lesson about this and there's a couple of things I'd like to share with you guys.

As Andrew mentioned above it's often used over dominant chords, well here's a way to use it.

When using the diminished scale to create phrases it's common to use the Dim7 arpeggio, starting on the dominant 7 of the chord it's played over. So if we're playing over an E7 we would play Ddim7 arpeggios. Since the dim7 arpeggio is pretty funny because of the Ddim7 containing the same notes as the Fdim7, Ab dim7 and Cbb (cool.gif dim7 one can also use the dim7 arpeggio of the ninth, major third or the fifth of the dominant chord. I do however like to keep it simple and just refer to the seventh.

In the blues twelve we can play that E7, A7 etc.

Then we would be able to play Ddim7 over the E7 chord and Gdim7 over the A7 chord. If we put these two together, what do you get?

*hint* it's 3 semitones between every note in a dim7 arpeggio.
*hint 2* the Gdim7 arpeggio consist of the notes one semitone below the Ddim7 arpeggio

Dunno if this was helpful in any way but I hope it was!


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kjutte
post Nov 17 2008, 07:54 PM
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By Dim7 I presume you mean min7/b5 ?
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Pedja Simovic
post Nov 17 2008, 09:48 PM
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Andrew thank you for starting lesson about half-whole diminished scale.


This is probably most undiscovered scale out there believe it or not.

Rock/Blues/Fusion guys use it over Dominant type chord.
For example if your Chord was C7 you would play C half whole diminished scale or C# dim 7 Arpeggio as well as E dim 7 arp , G dim 7 and Bbdim 7 arp.
What do you get by doing this?
Well you get Dom7 b9 sound without a ROOT!

So C7 b 9 is = C E G Bb Dd = 1 3 5 b7 b9!
C# dim 7 is = C#= Db E G Bb = b9 3 5 b7!

Bass players mostly play roots so this is why its great to use this arpeggio like this.


I will do series on half whole diminished scale and its application. As I said this is very common and beginner way to use it.

There is more harmonies in this scale and I will just give you a quick hint so your head can start to hurt you from thinking a little bit.

HEre is C half whole diminished scale .

C Db Eb E F# G A Bb C

I spelled some notes enharmonicly so you can see easier what I am talking about.

What are triads that exist in this scale from C note ?
Check it out
This will blow your mind away


C Eb G = C MINOR
C E G = C MAJOR
C Eb F#(Gb) = C DIMINISHED !

I discovered this when I was preparing to teach in front of whole auditorium of Berklee professors and show them ONE LESSON that I think is undiscovered and unexplored yet.
Thats what I did , presented this amazing discovery for diminished scale (you cant find it in books - if anywhere out there) and everybody was amazed by this.

So thats triads

Now look at this - 4 note chords from C !

C Eb G A = C minor 6
C Eb G Bb = C minor 7
C E G A = C major 6
C E G Bb = C7 wink.gif
C E F# Bb = C7b5! or C7#11!
C Eb F# A = C dim 7 !
C Eb F# Bb = C MIN7b5!


What do you think about that?

Pretty cool ha ? smile.gif


Now I leave you with these things to think about it for a while.

Sorry Andrew for this I tried to fill in the theory part here a bit - hope you don't mind !

wink.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Nov 17 2008, 09:55 PM
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Wow, that expanded my mind - thanks for the fantastic insights Pedja - that analysis shows what a flexible scale this can be - I love the way you can bring some dry theory to life with your experience!


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kjutte
post Nov 17 2008, 10:03 PM
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But then again, a C7/b9 isn't a chord of the majorscale, so why would be use it for anything else than a diminished run?

And what about wholetone Pedja, where and how do we use that in an interesting way?

This post has been edited by kjutte: Nov 17 2008, 10:04 PM
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Pedja Simovic
post Nov 17 2008, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Nov 17 2008, 10:03 PM) *
But then again, a C7/b9 isn't a chord of the majorscale, so why would be use it for anything else than a diminished run?

And what about wholetone Pedja, where and how do we use that in an interesting way?


Thats good question kjutte

The beauty of dominant 7 chords is that they can have any sort of tension to it !

Who says C7b9 has to belong to Major scale ? If you want me to be exact that chord comes from Harmonic Major and Harmonic minor scale (both from F).

My point here is , most of the times rhythm section will play SIMPLE 4 note chords.
So you get C7 as a thing going in the background.

Your job as a soloist and melodic player is to "paint" the picture as many ways as you can over that chord.

So thats where adding tensions to the chords as Soloist allows you to be free and express your different sounds over it.


Hope that makes sense. Listen to some Coltrane and Brecker - they did it all the time...

For whole tone is slightly different story as it is 6 note scale also known as hexatonic smile.gif

So you get C D E F# G# A# (Bb) C

So your choices for triads over C are very limited - if you are looking for traditional type of triads (major minor augmented and diminished).

C E G# = C augmented triad

4 note harmony
C E G# Bb = C7#5 or C7b13
C E F# Bb = C7b5 or C7# 11
Notice how C7b5 also exists in C half whole dim scale wink.gif

Here is one interesting thing that you can use it over

C E (G#) Bb D = C9 chord (if you dont play G#). You all know that funk voicing for Dominant 9 chord where you dont play G note but just C (A string) E (D string) Bb (G string) and D (B string).

So you can use that over it too.

Whole tone is very nice scale for pattern and outside playing as well as side stepping and resolutions from above below or below above to target note !

Hope this makes sense kjutte.

Thanks

EDIT : And by the way everything I wrote for C as whole tone harmony repeats at D E F# G# and Bb or A#! So you can play E whole tone which is same as C whole tone and resolve it to A MINOR for example wink.gif

This post has been edited by Pedja Simovic: Nov 17 2008, 10:21 PM


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kjutte
post Nov 17 2008, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Nov 17 2008, 10:15 PM) *
Thats good question kjutte

The beauty of dominant 7 chords is that they can have any sort of tension to it !

Who says C7b9 has to belong to Major scale ? If you want me to be exact that chord comes from Harmonic Major and Harmonic minor scale (both from F).

My point here is , most of the times rhythm section will play SIMPLE 4 note chords.
So you get C7 as a thing going in the background.

Your job as a soloist and melodic player is to "paint" the picture as many ways as you can over that chord.

So thats where adding tensions to the chords as Soloist allows you to be free and express your different sounds over it.


Hope that makes sense. Listen to some Coltrane and Brecker - they did it all the time...

For whole tone is slightly different story as it is 6 note scale also known as hexatonic smile.gif

So you get C D E F# G# A# (Bb) C

So your choices for triads over C are very limited - if you are looking for traditional type of triads (major minor augmented and diminished).

C E G# = C augmented triad

4 note harmony
C E G# Bb = C7#5 or C7b13
C E F# Bb = C7b5 or C7# 11
Notice how C7b5 also exists in C half whole dim scale wink.gif

Here is one interesting thing that you can use it over

C E (G#) Bb D = C9 chord (if you dont play G#). You all know that funk voicing for Dominant 9 chord where you dont play G note but just C (A string) E (D string) Bb (G string) and D (B string).

So you can use that over it too.

Whole tone is very nice scale for pattern and outside playing as well as side stepping and resolutions from above below or below above to target note !

Hope this makes sense kjutte.

Thanks

EDIT : And by the way everything I wrote for C as whole tone harmony repeats at D E F# G# and Bb or A#! So you can play E whole tone which is same as C whole tone and resolve it to A MINOR for example wink.gif


Ah, so that is why I always hear diminished stuff together with harmonic minor.
I know the scale, however I haven't bothered to learn its boxes, I just know the theory.

If I knew the boxes, I would know which chords it was made of, and see the resemblance I guess.

Anyway, C7b5, does that compare with any other ordinary scale? Like any of the harmonic or melodic minor modes?
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Pedja Simovic
post Nov 17 2008, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Nov 17 2008, 10:28 PM) *
Ah, so that is why I always hear diminished stuff together with harmonic minor.
I know the scale, however I haven't bothered to learn its boxes, I just know the theory.

If I knew the boxes, I would know which chords it was made of, and see the resemblance I guess.

Anyway, C7b5, does that compare with any other ordinary scale? Like any of the harmonic or melodic minor modes?


Yep

C7b5 or C7#11 is characteristic chord that comes from MELODIC MINOR!

Jazz players love this one. Its probably one of my favorite melodic minor modes. I am making a lesson with lines over Dominant chord and I will use that mode.

Ok whats basically happening is Dom 7 b 5 or # 11 chord is on 4th scale degree of melodic minor.
So you have C7# 11 ? Go down a forth. Boom , you have G melodic minor.

Here is G melodic minor scale from G : G A Bb C D E F# G
Here is G melodic minor scale from C : C D E F# G A Bb C !
This is known as LYDIAN b7 mode!
Why Lydian b7 ?
Well if you compare it to REGULAR LYDIAN MODE from MAJOR SCALE , everything is the same except it has flatted 7th.
Lets look at this
G major scale from G : G A B C D E F# G = G ionian
G major scale from C : C D E F# G A B C = C lydian

Now lets compare two scales- C lydian and Lydian b7

C lydian = C D E F# G A B C
C lydian b7 = C D E F# G A Bb C

Only one note difference but it makes a huge difference smile.gif

Hope that makes sense smile.gif


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kjutte
post Nov 17 2008, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Nov 17 2008, 10:34 PM) *
Yep

C7b5 or C7#11 is characteristic chord that comes from MELODIC MINOR!

Jazz players love this one. Its probably one of my favorite melodic minor modes. I am making a lesson with lines over Dominant chord and I will use that mode.

Ok whats basically happening is Dom 7 b 5 or # 11 chord is on 4th scale degree of melodic minor.
So you have C7# 11 ? Go down a forth. Boom , you have G melodic minor.

Here is G melodic minor scale from G : G A Bb C D E F# G
Here is G melodic minor scale from C : C D E F# G A Bb C !
This is known as LYDIAN b7 mode!
Why Lydian b7 ?
Well if you compare it to REGULAR LYDIAN MODE from MAJOR SCALE , everything is the same except it has flatted 7th.
Lets look at this
G major scale from G : G A B C D E F# G = G ionian
G major scale from C : C D E F# G A B C = C lydian

Now lets compare two scales- C lydian and Lydian b7

C lydian = C D E F# G A B C
C lydian b7 = C D E F# G A Bb C

Only one note difference but it makes a huge difference smile.gif

Hope that makes sense smile.gif


Makes perfect sense.

A request though - Next time you post a funky chord like C7/#11, I would really like it if you posted it like this:

"C7#11 - (Melodic minor mode X)"

please biggrin.gif Makes it easier to get track of smile.gif
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Pedja Simovic
post Nov 17 2008, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Nov 17 2008, 11:01 PM) *
Makes perfect sense.

A request though - Next time you post a funky chord like C7/#11, I would really like it if you posted it like this:

"C7#11 - (Melodic minor mode X)"

please biggrin.gif Makes it easier to get track of smile.gif


Cool kjutte
Glad it makes sense smile.gif

There is difference when you say C7b5 and C7#11 when you think about CHORD SCALE to play over it. As a chord its the same C E F# or Gb and Bb.
As a scale if you say C7b5 that means that the scale you play doesn't have a perfect 5th in it. So in that case you couldn't use 4th mode of melodic minor over it (lydian b7) because that scale has both b5 and 5! You would have to use Whole tone scale or Half Whole diminished scale for that because they dont have perfect 5th in them.
However if you see C7#11 chord that means that #11 is TENSION so your basic chord sound stays the same C E (g) Bb but you add F# to it. Now thats where 4th mode of melodic minor (lydian b7) really kicks in as it has both #11 and perfect 5th.

smile.gif


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kjutte
post Nov 17 2008, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Nov 17 2008, 11:07 PM) *
Cool kjutte
Glad it makes sense smile.gif

There is difference when you say C7b5 and C7#11 when you think about CHORD SCALE to play over it. As a chord its the same C E F# or Gb and Bb.
As a scale if you say C7b5 that means that the scale you play doesn't have a perfect 5th in it. So in that case you couldn't use 4th mode of melodic minor over it (lydian b7) because that scale has both b5 and 5! You would have to use Whole tone scale or Half Whole diminished scale for that because they dont have perfect 5th in them.
However if you see C7#11 chord that means that #11 is TENSION so your basic chord sound stays the same C E (g) Bb but you add F# to it. Now thats where 4th mode of melodic minor (lydian b7) really kicks in as it has both #11 and perfect 5th.

smile.gif


I know this, my friend. smile.gif Just easier to keep track of. biggrin.gif The X7b5 was harmonic minor, yes? which mode?

This post has been edited by kjutte: Nov 17 2008, 11:10 PM
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Pedja Simovic
post Nov 17 2008, 11:16 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Nov 17 2008, 11:09 PM) *
I know this, my friend. smile.gif Just easier to keep track of. biggrin.gif The X7b5 was harmonic minor, yes? which mode?


smile.gif
Nope

7b5 type of chord doesn't exist in Harmonic but rather in Melodic minor on 4th scale degree.

Here is harmonic minor harmony with triads from C

C Min D dim Eb aug F min G Ab Bdim C min
You can also have Ab MIN and Ab Dim on bVI scale degree of the scale.

Here is 4 note harmony

C min/maj7 D min7b5 Ebmaj7#5 F min7 G7 Abmaj7 B dim7 C min/maj7

Instead of Ab maj7 you can have Ab min/maj7 and Ab dim7!


Now as you see there is only 1 dominant chord on 5th scale degree and that is G7.

So we need G 7 b 5 ? We have to have some sort of C# or Db to make that happen.
C harmonic minor does not have that note in it so conclusion is Dominant 7b5 chord does not belong in Harmonic minor smile.gif


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kjutte
post Nov 17 2008, 11:26 PM
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I don't understand the 4note choices. Where do you pull this from? what do you compare it to?

"You can also have Ab MIN and Ab Dim on bVI scale degree of the scale."

This neither, as Abmin has a prefect fifth and b7, while Abdim has b5 bb7 :S

This post has been edited by kjutte: Nov 17 2008, 11:27 PM
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