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fkalich
post Nov 5 2007, 10:20 AM
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Interesting reading. The author is an a teacher, in the Boston Philharmonic Orchestra, and has degrees both in music and Neuroscience. Discuss?

http://www.newenglandconservatory.edu/stud...chbyGebrian.pdf


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Andrew Cockburn
post Nov 5 2007, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 5 2007, 04:20 AM) *
Interesting reading. The author is an a teacher, in the Boston Philharmonic Orchestra, and has degrees both in music and Neuroscience. Discuss?

http://www.newenglandconservatory.edu/stud...chbyGebrian.pdf


Fascinating stuff - the role of sleep in learning was especially interesting as was the mental practicing bit.

It kind of adds legitimacy to the metronome practice - practice perfect execution at a speed you can manage and you are training your brain to perform, the task, trimming neuron connections etc - repetition is the key. So in theory you should practice metronome for a while, then leave it over nght and the next day you will have improved ...

Interestingly, it implies that practicing the same thing for a long period of time is not a lot more effective than practicing it then sleeping. Of course, more practice is better but this implies that you should vary it and not practice any one thing to exclusion.


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fkalich
post Nov 5 2007, 10:56 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 5 2007, 03:47 AM) *
Fascinating stuff - the role of sleep in learning was especially interesting as was the mental practicing bit.

It kind of adds legitimacy to the metronome practice - practice perfect execution at a speed you can manage and you are training your brain to perform, the task, trimming neuron connections etc - repetition is the key. So in theory you should practice metronome for a while, then leave it over nght and the next day you will have improved ...

Interestingly, it implies that practicing the same thing for a long period of time is not a lot more effective than practicing it then sleeping. Of course, more practice is better but this implies that you should vary it and not practice any one thing to exclusion.


You read fast.

edit: removed my 2 cents. people like the article, I was cluttering up the thread.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Nov 5 2007, 06:29 PM


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ibanezkiller
post Nov 5 2007, 11:15 AM
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That was the coolest 6 pages ever... im going to try it... learn a new mode mentally and the next morning after a good sleep, and try to play it after thinking about it...


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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Nov 5 2007, 11:26 AM
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Good Find Fkalich smile.gif


The mental practicing bit seems like a correct view point of the whole thing.
Doesnt this basically mean we can actually practice less and in different ways and still see the same improvment ? Neat.


Off to Bed ! smile.gif


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FretDancer69
post Nov 5 2007, 11:30 AM
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It also means that we can be "practicing" a scale, lick, sweep arpeggio, tap lick ,etc in our minds when we are away of our instruments and that will actually help us improve more, even if we're not playing the instrument. Amazing and very informative.

Thanks fkalich, i enjoyed reading. smile.gif

This post has been edited by FretDancer69: Nov 5 2007, 11:30 AM


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PlayAllDay
post Nov 5 2007, 12:47 PM
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One of my old guitar teachers used to pace around and around the pot-belly stove in his farmhouse, and if you asked what he was doing he would snap "Shut up! I'm practising."
He was a brilliant guitarist too.


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fkalich
post Nov 5 2007, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (PlayAllDay @ Nov 5 2007, 05:47 AM) *
One of my old guitar teachers used to pace around and around the pot-belly stove in his farmhouse, and if you asked what he was doing he would snap "Shut up! I'm practising."
He was a brilliant guitarist too.


good story.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Nov 5 2007, 06:32 PM


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Zephyr
post Nov 5 2007, 12:55 PM
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Wow... that's some pretty cool stuff, fkalich... I've only read the first couple of pages, I'll have to finish it later, but I had no idea that was what went on when you're learning a new technique! Amazing...
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mattacuk
post Nov 5 2007, 06:11 PM
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Yeah this is seriously interesting stuff!! I always thought music practice must develop the brain in many ways.


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chast
post Nov 5 2007, 07:03 PM
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Thats interessting, especially the mental training.
Just a few days ago, I also thought about "how I could learn something faster".

But I have a question about the mental training. The one group who wasnt allowed to play the piano, did they imagine that they play the piano (to hit the right keys) or how did they do that mental training ?


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fkalich
post Nov 5 2007, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (mattacuk @ Nov 5 2007, 11:11 AM) *
Yeah this is seriously interesting stuff!! I always thought music practice must develop the brain in many ways.


The garden hose analogy struck me. That poor practice habits actually do damage to the neural synapses that you are trying to establish, that have to be repaired (in her analogy, punching holes in the garden hose.)

From now on I practice clean, all the time, not more fast crap play. I can now visualize that when I did that, I was establishing these nasty little crap play neural receptors, it actually does damage to the synaptic structure that you are trying to establish in the learning process.


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mattacuk
post Nov 5 2007, 07:15 PM
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I am very interested if practicing to a backing track is just as good as metronome usage. For the first 6-9 months i play to the metronome and now i tend to use the backing track to keep timeing (because its more fun). I always know if im in time, but i wondered what you guys thought about that!?


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fkalich
post Nov 5 2007, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE (mattacuk @ Nov 5 2007, 12:15 PM) *
I am very interested if practicing to a backing track is just as good as metronome usage. For the first 6-9 months i play to the metronome and now i tend to use the backing track to keep timeing (because its more fun). I always know if im in time, but i wondered what you guys thought about that!?


Matt, you are thinking the same thing I have thought, and observed myself. I feel that the are an impediment to the learning process, they take away your focus. You probably have noticed what I have. I liked my play with a backing track, or drum machine, then just use a metronome, and all of a sudden, not so good anymore. For the most efficient practice, I feel that no more than the metronome. Even the drum machine takes away from your focused learning, though not to the extent of the backing tracks. I figure after you have perfected something, that is when to put the backing to it. Guys may be able to play sloppy and put some video on with thick backing, and some may ooooh and awwwww. But if you ever hear a REALLY skilled player with the backing, a world of difference. And if you hear some of these guys that sounded good with the backing, without that, not very good.

QUOTE (chast @ Nov 5 2007, 12:03 PM) *
Thats interessting, especially the mental training.
Just a few days ago, I also thought about "how I could learn something faster".

But I have a question about the mental training. The one group who wasnt allowed to play the piano, did they imagine that they play the piano (to hit the right keys) or how did they do that mental training ?


It was not specific on that. However I think I know what it was. You just visualize you play, you watch your fingers move in your head, and try to hear it in your head, with your "inner ear:"

Very skilled trained singers have the concept of "inner ear". This is not real sound, but you just hear it in your head. You have done that, have you not, sort of listened to a sound in your head? I think that you do that, visualize the finger movements, and try to hear it in your head.

Actually, I have played sometimes, and while playing, I would start listening to it in my head, what I wanted to come out of the guitar. And I would find that my playing was much nicer. As I said, trained professional singers (such as opera) do this, they imagine the sound they want as they sing, they focus on that. There are metal processes that will, if you focus on what you want to hear in your head, cause your fingers to do the right things. I believe that. And really great guitarists, I think they do that a lot. Maybe they don't think about it, but I think they do it, and that is why their music moves you. It is coming from deep inside.

I also have been visualizing mentally as I play recently, and have felt it really helps. Say i play a sequence with maybe 8 triplets, difficult. I will try to get a clear visualization of each triplet unit just before I play it, which is difficult as you go fast. I think they do that, just not actually playing the instrument.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Nov 5 2007, 08:43 PM


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tonymiro
post Nov 5 2007, 09:11 PM
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Very interesting article fkalich - thanks.

At the very least it has to be worth a try. So for this week - maybe longer - I'm going to switch my practice session accordingly. At the moment I usually practice in the morning first thing after breakfast. Maybe not a great time anyway as I'm often still half asleep then. So I'll try switching the time to last thing before bed.

Now the only possible downside - for me anyway - is whether I can 'turn off' when I go to bed or if I'll just lie there in the dark seeing notes unsure.gif . Still, if it stops me lying in the dark worrying about money it will have done at least some good wink.gif .

I'll try to remember to let you all know how things go.

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fkalich
post Nov 5 2007, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Nov 5 2007, 02:11 PM) *
Very interesting article fkalich - thanks.

At the very least it has to be worth a try. So for this week - maybe longer - I'm going to switch my practice session accordingly. At the moment I usually practice in the morning first thing after breakfast. Maybe not a great time anyway as I'm often still half asleep then. So I'll try switching the time to last thing before bed.

Now the only possible downside - for me anyway - is whether I can 'turn off' when I go to bed or if I'll just lie there in the dark seeing notes unsure.gif . Still, if it stops me lying in the dark worrying about money it will have done at least some good wink.gif .

I'll try to remember to let you all know how things go.

Cheers,
Tony


I will be looking for this in one week. Very interested in the experienced perspective.

I will say this. I have suspected some of theses things in the past, but after a day of just disciplining myself to, when I get to a difficult phrase, REALLY focusing on seeing it played in my head, visualizing that, and hear it correctly in my mind, I can play stuff that I before, well my attempt would have failed. I find myself at those times not even looking at the fret board, just visualizing the finger movements, and the sound in my head, and low and behold, really works.

I am going to do that also do the experiment (while not playing) and will also report back in a week on this thread. We can compare results, one from the humble student, the other from the experienced musician.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Nov 5 2007, 09:44 PM


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fkalich
post Nov 5 2007, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE (mattacuk @ Nov 5 2007, 12:15 PM) *
I am very interested if practicing to a backing track is just as good as metronome usage. For the first 6-9 months i play to the metronome and now i tend to use the backing track to keep timeing (because its more fun). I always know if im in time, but i wondered what you guys thought about that!?


a little qualification here, on backing. I don't feel you have to have it perfect to use the backing. Just get it to the point where you are decently clean, getting pretty close to that level. Then I think the backing is fine for finishing it up, polishing it up, and that is more fun I agree. I am just a humble student, I know that, but I am finding my progress quite rapid working according to these principles.


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JCJXXL
post Nov 5 2007, 11:20 PM
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This validates what I have suspected. There have been times when I have picked up my guitar before going to bed to try something new I have read about or thought about. I may only spend 10-15 minutes on the "new thing" then go to bed. The next day or two when I go back to that new thing, it's alot easier.

I have a tendency to think about patterns, licks,etc throughout the day as I drive from one work appointment to the next. Sometimes I get so absorbed with an idea that I think about it as I am trying to fall asleep and the next day it's almost like someone/something has programmed me to perform it better.

Sounds very weird and if someone told me about a personal expierience like this I may doubt them. I asked a fellow guitarist about this and he totally agreed by sharing similar experiences.

I don't think thinking and sleeping on something will ever take the place of putting in some serious practice time but there is definitely something to be said about it boosting your ability to learn.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.
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post Nov 5 2007, 11:54 PM
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That's why I always want to play air guitar!!
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fkalich
post Nov 6 2007, 12:03 AM
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QUOTE (JCJXXL @ Nov 5 2007, 04:20 PM) *
This validates what I have suspected. There have been times when I have picked up my guitar before going to bed to try something new I have read about or thought about. I may only spend 10-15 minutes on the "new thing" then go to bed. The next day or two when I go back to that new thing, it's alot easier.

I have a tendency to think about patterns, licks,etc throughout the day as I drive from one work appointment to the next. Sometimes I get so absorbed with an idea that I think about it as I am trying to fall asleep and the next day it's almost like someone/something has programmed me to perform it better.

Sounds very weird and if someone told me about a personal expierience like this I may doubt them. I asked a fellow guitarist about this and he totally agreed by sharing similar experiences.

I don't think thinking and sleeping on something will ever take the place of putting in some serious practice time but there is definitely something to be said about it boosting your ability to learn.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.


That is a very good two cents.


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