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Pedja Simovic
Hi Matt!

This is place where I will give you assignments and upload videos. You will do the same starting tonight. Bookmark it, subscribe to it as it will be easier to follow when I post new things in!

Matt23
Bookmarked and subscribed. smile.gif
Pedja Simovic
Lets get started Matt!

In your guitar CV you mentioned your main goal is for me to teach you how to play Jazz and Fusion music. With this main goal, there were numerous minor goals that will eventually lead to major one. I also like that you stated which technique area needs work (alternate picking).

For your 1st assignment I have some alternate picking exercises (5 of them) as well as theory reading assignment.

Here is your 1st assignment :

- Record each lick in 3 different tempos! Make sure tempos are at least 15-20 bpm difference.
- Try to show me your maximum tempo for these licks, I want you to push yourself here!
- Feel free to ask for more exercises if these are too easy for you!
- Upload your takes in this thread. Ideally I would like you to do videos, put them on Youtube and embed them here.

Regarding practice schedule, I think you should do this an hour every day if you want to move tempos faster. Even better, do it 45-50 minutes with brake of 10 - 15 minutes. If you do it 50 minutes that gives you 10 minutes per exercise! Plenty of time to learn them all in slow, regular and fast tempo before recording it all.

Time limit for 1st assignment would be a week from now. If you manage to do all the exercises before that, I will put more exercises here for you!


Theory reading :

- I would like you to read my posts from links provided below.
- Once you read it all, memorize 3 and 4 part harmony in C major scale.
- Learn to apply scale degrees rather then numbers ( I in C major is C, IV in C is F etc).
- Write out in this thread all notes for 3 and 4 part harmony in C major scale.

This is an extra assignment so I won't put any time limit on this one yet. I want you to first do your alternate picking assignment but you can in the meanwhile read these posts and learn a lot from them.

Here are the links :

Cadences

Major scale harmony and chord functions


Let me know if you have any question Matt. Don't hesitate to ask, I am here to help man!
Matt23
Ok Pedja, thanks for your quick response. smile.gif I have a few questions though.

First, in the first exercise, there is a pattern that uses the 3rd, 5th, and 7th frets. In the tab you say, I should use index on the 3rd, ring on the 5th, and pinky on the 7th. I find it much easier to play the 5th fret with my middle finger though. Can I just do that, or should I try to play it the way the tab says?

Second, my access to a camera is quite limited, so is it better that I post my assignments later with video, or sooner with just audio?

Third, what sort of speed should I practice the exercises at. The fastest speed I can play them cleanly or a slower speed or what?

Matt smile.gif



Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Matt23 @ Sep 5 2009, 01:28 PM) *
Ok Pedja, thanks for your quick response. smile.gif I have a few questions though.

First, in the first exercise, there is a pattern that uses the 3rd, 5th, and 7th frets. In the tab you say, I should use index on the 3rd, ring on the 5th, and pinky on the 7th. I find it much easier to play the 5th fret with my middle finger though. Can I just do that, or should I try to play it the way the tab says?

Second, my access to a camera is quite limited, so is it better that I post my assignments later with video, or sooner with just audio?

Third, what sort of speed should I practice the exercises at. The fastest speed I can play them cleanly or a slower speed or what?

Matt smile.gif



Great to get your response so quick! I am glad to see you are already working on things smile.gif
To answer your questions...

1) Use fingerings that you are most comfortable with to play faster tempos! My fingerings was just suggestions but you can change that no problem.
2) If you can't record video at the moment, go ahead and post audio. Remember you have one week for this assignment. That should give you plenty of time to practice those exercises and get them up to tempo before doing video.
3) You should do 3 tempos. First tempo should be very slow and its basically warm up tempo. Second tempo should be in somewhere between a warm up and good effort. Last tempo should be your highest possible tempo where you can play clean without mistakes!

I want you to record these exercises with the metronome click in the background!

I will post my takes for all 5 exercises soon and it should help you a lot when doing yours.

Let me know if you have any more questions Matt!

Matt23
Ok just to clarify about the tempo question, are you saying if I practice like you said I should, that I should split the 10 minutes for each exercise into 3 tempos, so 3 and a bit minutes for each tempo?
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Matt23 @ Sep 5 2009, 01:37 PM) *
Ok just to clarify about the tempo question, are you saying if I practice like you said I should, that I should split the 10 minutes for each exercise into 3 tempos, so 3 and a bit minutes for each tempo?


Actually that was 10 minutes for each exercises. 5 exercise x 10 minutes each = 50 minutes. So you finish the routine in less then hour with 10 minutes spare to do some theory reading !

This is my suggestion as I can't tell you practice 3 hours this! If you have extra time, do more then 50 minutes. If you have 3 hours, do 3 sets of 50 minutes with 10 minute brakes in between each set.

I can give you suggestions for tempos. For example 40bpm, 80bpm and 100 bpm! Or 60 bpm, 90 bpm and 120 bpm!

See what you can do wink.gif
Matt23
3 Part Harmony:

C Ionian - C, E, G
D Dorian - D, F, A
E Phrygian - E, G, B
F Lydian - F, A, C
G Mixolydian - G, B, D
A Aeolian - A, C, E
B Locrian - B, D, F

4 Part Harmony:

C Ionian - C, E, G, B
D Dorian - D, F, A, C
E Phrygian - E, G, B, D
F Lydian - F, A, C, E
G Mixolydian - G, B, D, F
A Aeolian - A, C, E, G
B Locrian - B, D, F, A
Pedja Simovic
Awesome Matt!
Now just add scale degrees before notes (I C major or C maj7 = C Ionian etc).
You can then do another key, G major for example! Try to figure out if G major has sharps or flats wink.gif
Matt23
3 Part Harmony:

I G Ionian - G, B, D (G)
II A Dorian - A, C, E (Am)
III B Phrygian - B, D, F# (Bm)
IV C Lydian - C, E, G ©
V D Mixolydian - D, F#, A (D)
VI E Aeolian - E, G, B (Em)
VII F# Locrian - F#, A, C (F#dim)

4 Part Harmony:

I G Ionian - G, B, D, F# (Gmaj7)
II A Dorian - A, C, E, G (Amin7)
III B Phrygian - B, D, F#, A (Bmin7)
IV C Lydian - C, E, G, B (Cmaj7)
V D Mixolydian - D, F#, A, C (D7)
VI E Aeolian - E, G, B, D (Emin7)
VII F# Locrian - F#, A, C, E (F#min7b5)
Pedja Simovic
Great stuff Matt very well done!

I will give you couple of extra assignments for major scale harmony but remember you have alternate picking as your primary assignment still to do!

Here are extra keys :

1) Key of Ab major (3 and 4 part harmony with modes and scale degrees)
2) Key of B major (same as above)
3) Key of Gb major (same as above)

Let me know if you have any questions Matt smile.gif
Matt23
Ok I've done 50 minutes of practice on the exercises, so I'm posting them here, with 3 speeds like you said.

Also if you don't mind reading it, I'm going to say how I did the practice, just to make sure I'm not doing anything wrong.

First I found the maximum speeds I could play each exercises cleanly. I then went down 20bpm and 20bpm again to get the speeds I would practice each exercise at. For exercise's 1, 2 and 3, the speeds were 60, 80 and 100. For exercise four the speeds were 80, 100 and 120. For exercise 5 the speeds were, 50, 70 and 90.

For each exercise, I played the first speed for 3 minutes, the second speed for the next three minutes, then the third speed for the remaining 4 minutes. After the third exercise I had a ten minute break were I read about cadences and wrote the 3 and 4 part harmonies of C major. I then went back and did the last two exercises.

So if you could tell me if that's a good way to practice that'd be great. And thanks for all the time and effort you're putting in to mentor me. smile.gif

Just finished reading both the posts you assigned, and I've got a few questions.

First could you give me a clear definition of what a Cadence is, because I always thought it was the last two chords of a phrase. I.e. Perfect cadence: V-I Plagal Cadence: IV-I Interrupted Cadence: V-VI etc. In your post though I got the impression that they were chord progressions.

Second, I understood everything in the Chord Substitution post (I think), but I don't quite get why you would use it. I mean if you substitute the tonic I, for VI, then surely you've changed the tonic to the relative minor. So if you could give me an example of how to use chord substituion I think that would help me.
Pedja Simovic
Matt I read everything, downloaded and hear all the exercises.

Let me first say that I want you to play same 3 tempos for all 5 exercises.

In the takes you submitted you are not playing with a click. Only Example 4 is fairly accurate and has tight phrasing. All the other takes are very loose which show that you need to work with playing with metronome more.

Since these are all 16th note based exercises, make sure that your every 4th note falls on the click! So you play 1st note, 3 more after that and 4th has to be on straight with the click boom ! smile.gif

I will post my takes with these examples and it will be much easier. Keep working on it, this is good first draft, you got them in your fingers already!
Matt23
QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 5 2009, 03:46 PM) *
Matt I read everything, downloaded and hear all the exercises.

Let me first say that I want you to play same 3 tempos for all 5 exercises.

In the takes you submitted you are not playing with a click. Only Example 4 is fairly accurate and has tight phrasing. All the other takes are very loose which show that you need to work with playing with metronome more.

Since these are all 16th note based exercises, make sure that your every 4th note falls on the click! So you play 1st note, 3 more after that and 4th has to be on straight with the click boom ! smile.gif

I will post my takes with these examples and it will be much easier. Keep working on it, this is good first draft, you got them in your fingers already!


Ok, I'll play them all at 60, 80 and 100.

I am playing with a click in all of them, but yeh my rhythm placement definitely needs work. I'll try and make every fourth note fall on the click when I'm practicing these with a metronome, thanks for the advice.

Thanks for listening Pedja. Should I repost these after I've practiced them a bit more. And if so when?


Ab Major

3 Part Harmony:

I Ab Ionian - Ab, C, Eb (Ab)
II Bb Dorian - Bb, Db, F (Bbm)
III C Phrygian - C, Eb, G (Cm)
IV Db Lydian - Db, F, Ab (Db)
V Eb Mixolydian - Eb, G, Ab (Eb)
VI F Aeolian - F, Ab, C (Fm)
VII G Locrian - G, Bb, Db (Gdim)

4 Part Harmony:

I Ab Ionian - Ab, C, Eb, G (Abmaj7)
II Bb Dorian - Bb, Db, F, Ab (Bbmin7)
III C Phrygian - C, Eb, G, Bb (Cmin7)
IV Db Lydian - Db, F, Ab, C (Dbmaj7)
V Eb Mixolydian - Eb, G, Ab, Db (Eb7)
VI F Aeolian - F, Ab, C, Eb (Fmin7)
VII G Locrian - G, Bb, Db, F (Gmin7b5)

B Major

3 Part Harmony:

I B Ionian - B, D#, F# (cool.gif
II C# Dorian - C#, E, G# (C#m)
III D# Phrygian - D#, F#, A# (D#m)
IV E Lydian - E, G#, B (E)
V F# Mixolydian - F#, A#, C# (F#)
VI G# Aeolian - G#, B, D# (G#min)
VII A# Locrian - A#, C#, E (A#dim)

4 Part Harmony:

I B Ionian - B, D#, F#, A# (Bmaj7)
II C# Dorian - C#, E, G#, B (C#min7)
III D# Phrygian - D#, F#, A#, C# (D#min7)
IV E Lydian - E, G#, B, D# (Emaj7)
V F# Mixolydian - F#, A#, C#, E (F#7)
VI G# Aeolian - G#, B, D#, F# (G#min7)
VII A# Locrian - A#, C#, E, G# (A#min7b5)
Pedja Simovic
Great stuff Matt!

Re-post those exercises every day if you want and can. That way we can monitor progress more closely. Ideally I would like to hear within one week no mistakes in all 3 takes and video of it all smile.gif
Matt23
Gb Major

3 Part Harmony:

I Gb Ionian - Gb, Bb, Db (Gb)
II Ab Dorian - Ab, Cb Eb (Abm)
III Bb Phrygian - Bb, Db, F (Bbm)
IV Cb Lydian - Cb, Eb, Gb (Cb)
V Db Mixolydian - Db, F, Ab (Db)
VI Eb Aeolian - Eb, Gb, Bb (Ebmin)
VII F Locrian - F, Ab, Cb (A#dim)

4 Part Harmony:

I Gb Ionian - Gb, Bb, Db, F (Gbmaj7)
II Ab Dorian - Ab, Cb Eb, Gb (Abmin7)
III Bb Phrygian - Bb, Db, F, Ab (Bbmin7)
IV Cb Lydian - Cb, Eb, Gb, Bb (Cbmaj7)
V Db Mixolydian - Db, F, Ab, Cb (Db7)
VI Eb Aeolian - Eb, Gb, Bb, Db (Ebmin7)
VII F Locrian - F, Ab, Cb, Gb (Fmin7b5)


QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 5 2009, 04:14 PM) *
Great stuff Matt!

Re-post those exercises every day if you want and can. That way we can monitor progress more closely. Ideally I would like to hear within one week no mistakes in all 3 takes and video of it all smile.gif


Ok I should be able to record the exercises every day, and I should be able to get a video by the end of the week.
Pedja Simovic
Great stuff Matt!
Check your chord labeling for F Locryian in Gb Major wink.gif
Matt23
If you haven't got the time to reply atm that's fine, there's no rush, but I just wondered if you saw what I wrote earlier about the theory articles.

"Just finished reading both the posts you assigned, and I've got a few questions.

First could you give me a clear definition of what a Cadence is, because I always thought it was the last two chords of a phrase. I.e. Perfect cadence: V-I Plagal Cadence: IV-I Interrupted Cadence: V-VI etc. In your post though I got the impression that they were chord progressions.

Second, I understood everything in the Chord Substitution post (I think), but I don't quite get why you would use it. I mean if you substitute the tonic I, for VI, then surely you've changed the tonic to the relative minor. So if you could give me an example of how to use chord substituion I think that would help me."


p.s. Normally I would just wait for a reply, but you seem to reply so promptly to everything I thought you might have missed it. smile.gif
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Matt23 @ Sep 5 2009, 05:58 PM) *
If you haven't got the time to reply atm that's fine, there's no rush, but I just wondered if you saw what I wrote earlier about the theory articles.

"Just finished reading both the posts you assigned, and I've got a few questions.

First could you give me a clear definition of what a Cadence is, because I always thought it was the last two chords of a phrase. I.e. Perfect cadence: V-I Plagal Cadence: IV-I Interrupted Cadence: V-VI etc. In your post though I got the impression that they were chord progressions.

Second, I understood everything in the Chord Substitution post (I think), but I don't quite get why you would use it. I mean if you substitute the tonic I, for VI, then surely you've changed the tonic to the relative minor. So if you could give me an example of how to use chord substituion I think that would help me."


p.s. Normally I would just wait for a reply, but you seem to reply so promptly to everything I thought you might have missed it. smile.gif


Hey Matt,

I was not near computer for the last hour or so.

Don't get confused with the cadence. In classical music its like you sad Plagal, Interrupted and all the rest. Since we are studying contemporary music harmony, cadence can be best described as group of chords that describe given scale or mode! I hope that makes things clear now.

Regarding chord substitution, we apply it to enrich and reharmonize harmony. In a way, we expand things that way and have much more possibilities when we have some given melody to work with. Chord substitution also opens up more possibilities for us to change keys and modulate.

Let me know if you have any more questions!
Matt23
Ok I understand now about cadences, thanks smile.gif, but I'm still not sure about chord substitution. Is chord substitution just a way of taking a chord progression, but substituting some of the chords for similar ones to make a similar but different progression?
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Matt23 @ Sep 5 2009, 08:50 PM) *
Ok I understand now about cadences, thanks smile.gif, but I'm still not sure about chord substitution. Is chord substitution just a way of taking a chord progression, but substituting some of the chords for similar ones to make a similar but different progression?


Thats exactly what it is!
If you read that post more you will see why substitution works and what type of chord functions we have (Tonic, Subdominant and Dominant).
Matt23
Ok I'll read it again now I understand more what the post is about.
Pedja Simovic
Excellent Matt. I am very happy with your theory and harmony responses so far. We have to work on technique part of assignment now. If you get a chance today, post some audio of exercises.
I have just a quick question for you... How did you manage in the same track to have different metronome clicks come through the actual recording?
Matt23
Ok Pedja, I should be able to post some audio clips this evening. And to your question about the metronome. I have Acoustica Beatcraft, so I made a metronome beat and copied it the number of times I needed it (66), then I went through adding tempo flags, and setting the track to the right tempo at the right times.
Pedja Simovic
Sounds great Matt.
I will try to do something similar when recording my examples today wink.gif
Matt23
I'm afraid I have some bad news Pedja. Today I hurt the little finger on my left hand, so I can't play the guitar, not even with the other fingers. sad.gif Hopefully it will be good enough to play guitar with soon though. smile.gif
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Matt23 @ Sep 7 2009, 04:44 PM) *
I'm afraid I have some bad news Pedja. Today I hurt the little finger on my left hand, so I can't play the guitar, not even with the other fingers. sad.gif Hopefully it will be good enough to play guitar with soon though. smile.gif


That is really some bad news Matt!
I really hope your little finger gets back to normal soon. Are you putting some ice on it? How did you hurt it ?
Matt23
QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 7 2009, 03:47 PM) *
That is really some bad news Matt!
I really hope your little finger gets back to normal soon. Are you putting some ice on it? How did you hurt it ?


It was at school when we were doing PE. I was playing dodgeball, and I tried to catch a really hard throw and it bent my finger back. I might put some ice on it but I don't think it helps so much if you don't do it straight after you hurt something. I think it will recover quite quick though cos when I hurt it I couldn't bend it at all, and now there's about 45 degrees of bend in it, so it should be useable in a couple of days even if it's a bit painful.
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Matt23 @ Sep 7 2009, 04:56 PM) *
It was at school when we were doing PE. I was playing dodgeball, and I tried to catch a really hard throw and it bent my finger back. I might put some ice on it but I don't think it helps so much if you don't do it straight after you hurt something. I think it will recover quite quick though cos when I hurt it I couldn't bend it at all, and now there's about 45 degrees of bend in it, so it should be useable in a couple of days even if it's a bit painful.


That is terrible Matt. Relax your hand and try to avoid dodge ball next time. Similar thing happened to me when I was playing basketball in my primary school. After that incident I basically gave up on that sport because music is my life long career, didn't want something like that to repeat...
Matt23
It's not anything serious just a bit annoying.
Pedja Simovic
Cool Matt, relax and when you are ready record those AP exercises for me.
Would you like more theory related assignments in the meanwhile?
Matt23
QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 7 2009, 04:19 PM) *
Cool Matt, relax and when you are ready record those AP exercises for me.
Would you like more theory related assignments in the meanwhile?


Sure. smile.gif
Pedja Simovic
Ok Matt, I will post some more questions later tonight!
Pedja Simovic
Here we go with more theory Matt !

- Read my theory and harmony posts regarding Cadences.
- Once you have read everything, write out cadences for following tonal centers
1) Db Ionian
2) F# Dorian
3) C Phrygian
4) G Lydian
5) F Mixolydian
6) F# Aeolian

Extra assignment , write down notes of the mode above!
Matt23
Db Ionian

Db (I), Gb (IV), Ab (V), Db (I) or
Ebm (II), Ab (V), Db (I)

Db Ionian: Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C

F# Dorian

F#m (I), B (IV) or
F#m (I), G#m (II)

F# Dorian: F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E

C Phrygian

Cm (I), Db (II) or
Cm (I), Bbm (VII)

C Phrygian: C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb

G Lydian

G (I), A (II) or
G (I), F#m (VII)

G Lydian: G, A, B, C#, D, E, F#

F Mixolydian

F (I), Eb (VII) or
F (I), Cm (V)

F Mixolydian: F, G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb

F# Aeolian:

F#m (I), Bm (IV), C#m (V), F#m (I) or
F#m (I), D (VI), E (VII), F#m (I)

F# Aeolian: F#, G#, A, B, C#, D, E
Pedja Simovic
Perfect Matt!
More theory and harmony tomorrow stay tuned wink.gif
Pedja Simovic
Ok Matt, we continue with more theory and harmony now. I hope your finger is getting better smile.gif I haven't forgoten about alternate picking, hope you haven't either wink.gif

Here we go with new assignment

Questions :

1) What is cycle 4 and cycle 5 in harmony?
2) How many keys with sharps do we have in music? What about keys with flats?
3) How many notes do we have in chromatic scale?
4) What is the shortcut we use to move through cycle 4? What about cycle 5?

Let me know if you need any help with these, this is just to get you going!
Matt23
I'll have a go at these but I'm not too sure about the cycle 4 and 5 questions. Is there an article or a post you could maybe link me to about them? And about my finger, I can play fine with 3 fingers now, and very gently with four, so I should be able to make a start on those exercises soon.

1) Is cycle 4 a chord progression where you go through chords in 4th intervals, in a cycle until you get back to the starting chord. I.e. In the key of C major: C, F, B, E, A, D, G, C. And is cycle 5 then the same in 5th intervals. I.e. In C major: C, G, D, A, E, B, F, C.

2) 5 keys with sharps, 5 keys with flats, and Gb/F#, which can have sharps or flats.

3) 12

4) No idea
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Matt23 @ Sep 11 2009, 06:46 PM) *
I'll have a go at these but I'm not too sure about the cycle 4 and 5 questions. Is there an article or a post you could maybe link me to about them? And about my finger, I can play fine with 3 fingers now, and very gently with four, so I should be able to make a start on those exercises soon.

1) Is cycle 4 a chord progression where you go through chords in 4th intervals, in a cycle until you get back to the starting chord. I.e. In the key of C major: C, F, B, E, A, D, G, C. And is cycle 5 then the same in 5th intervals. I.e. In C major: C, G, D, A, E, B, F, C.

2) 5 keys with sharps, 5 keys with flats, and Gb/F#, which can have sharps or flats.

3) 12

4) No idea



Matt you did very good to certain extent on your own. I am proud of you man smile.gif

Here are some things that will help you for future.

Cycle 5 is used to determine keys with sharps. We start on C and always go up a perfect 5th. Thats our next key with one extra sharp. So C (no accidentals) up a perfect 5th gives us G major that has one accidental. Now regarding question 4, here is your answer : Trick is, we always have to alter 7th from minor to major so that we could get half step between it and the root. In practical terms, what is 7th of G ? F right? What do we have to do ? Make it sharper, so we do F to F#, F# is our sharp, and F# to G is half step away!!! Let me know if this explanation makes sense?

Here are the keys with sharps for you Matt:

C = no accidentals
G = F#, 1 sharp
D = F# and C#, 2 sharps
A = F#, C# and G# = 3 sharps
E = F#, C#, G#, D# = 4 sharps
B = F#,C#, G#, D#, A# = 5 sharps
F#= F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E# = 6 sharps
C#= F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E#,B# = 7 sharps (all notes are sharp!).


So that is your Cycle 5 or keys with sharps.

Cycle 4 is used to determine keys with flats. We start on C and always go up a perfect 4th. That is our next key with one extra flat. So C (no accidentals) up a perfect 4th gives us F major that has one accidental (one flat). Now regarding question 4, here is your answer : Trick is, once we find the root, we go up another perfect 4th from it and since that interval is augmented 4th, we lower it and that is our original flat!!!

Let me put this into use so it is more clear to you.

We start on C , go up a perfect 4th , now we are in F! We know by now that F has one flat, problem is we don't know which one! Now as I said, go up a perfect 4th from F, there is your flat! F going up augmented 4th is B, so we have to make B into Bb for it to be perfect 4th from F. So F has 1 flat and it is Bb!

The beauty about this trick is once you found your first flat, every next key is based on the flat you found!
So from F major that has Bb, our next key becomes Bb with Eb flat, and our next key is then Eb with Ab flat etc.

Here is the Cycle 4 for you Matt:

C (no accidentals)
F = Bb = 1 flat
Bb = Bb and Eb = 2 flats
Eb = Bb, Eb, Ab= 3 flats
Ab= Bb, Eb, Ab,Dd, = 4 flats
Dd= Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb= 5 flats
Gb= Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Cb= 6 flats
Cb= Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Cb,Fb = 7 flats (all flats!)


Here is another tip for you Matt - Both cycle 4 and cycle 5 have 7 keys each! We have to take all 7 letter names and alter them, this is why we have to go through the cycle 7 times.


Hope this post was useful to you. I will post it also on my Theory and Harmony board for future reference.
Matt23
Thanks for that detailed reply Pedja smile.gif, I think I understand it, but I have a question. Should Cb not be B, to avoid 7 flats, and should C# not be Db to avoid 7 sharps?
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Matt23 @ Sep 11 2009, 08:49 PM) *
Thanks for that detailed reply Pedja smile.gif, I think I understand it, but I have a question. Should Cb not be B, to avoid 7 flats, and should C# not be Db to avoid 7 sharps?


Good questions!
Shouldn't Gb be F#? smile.gif
It is what it is... I actually had the same question going in my head years ago when I was starting with this (probably 12 years ago to be exact smile.gif. It popped to my mind the same thing, why call it Cb instead of B or C# instead of Db etc... I heard 3 things that I accepted today and teach my students that should help you as well.

1) In classical music pieces, key of the piece is very important as it sets the mood. Classical composers would argue with you all day that F# doesn't sound the same as Gb or C# doesn't sound the same as Db. To us it may just seem as enharmonic spelling, to them its much more. So I learned to deal with it. Also, classical music uses more sharp oriented keys because of orchestration purposes!

2) Jazz music is written by cycle 4, classical is in cycle 5!

3) Enharmonic spelling. Accept it as that, deal with it and its all good smile.gif

Matt23
Ok, fair enough, I'm prepared to accept it, but does noone really do the way I'm suggesting, because it seems more logical to have less sharps/flats in a key signature.

Also to "Shouldn't Gb be F#?", I didn't think so because changing Gb to F# and vice versa would have the same number (6) of sharps/flats in the key signature.
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Matt23 @ Sep 11 2009, 09:07 PM) *
Ok, fair enough, I'm prepared to accept it, but does noone really do the way I'm suggesting, because it seems more logical to have less sharps/flats in a key signature.

Also to "Shouldn't Gb be F#?", I didn't think so because changing Gb to F# and vice versa would have the same number (6) of sharps/flats in the key signature.


Well here is a simple explanation for you in that case. Major scale has 7 different notes right? C D E F G A B , correct?
In order for systems and cycles to work, we have to eventually use all the sharps (for all 7 notes) as well as all the flats (for all 7 notes). Only then this system makes sense - in my head at least. Why would go to 3,4,5,6 but not 7 sharps? smile.gif
Matt23
Because it is easier to read music with less sharps/flats in the key signature.

I agree that with the cycles and everything it makes more sense with 7 sharps/flats, but surely in actual music that's not the easiest thing to play.
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Matt23 @ Sep 11 2009, 09:12 PM) *
Because it is easier to read music with less sharps/flats in the key signature.

I agree that with the cycles and everything it makes more sense with 7 sharps/flats, but surely in actual music that's not the easiest thing to play.


I see your point but as guitar player, you just look at accidentals in the first line and you are done! You use same exact fingering for all 12 keys of major scale so nothing changes. It is of course another thing if you had to sight read a piece that goes outside of key using accidentals that don't belong in original key. That is when things get messy smile.gif But that's because all people who read music have really strong sight reading skills. It is very useful ability to have when reading music smile.gif
Matt23
Ok, I'll have another go at answering those questions now.
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Matt23 @ Sep 11 2009, 09:23 PM) *
Ok, I'll have another go at answering those questions now.


Ok Matt, I am in chat right now, you can join me there if you want.
Matt23
1) What is cycle 4 and cycle 5 in harmony?

Answer: Cycle 4 is a way of finding key signatures that contain flats by going up in perfect fourths. If you started at C (no flats), then up a fourth would be F. A fourth from F is a B, but to make that a perfect fourth, it must be dimished, so the key signature for F is Bb. At Bb up a fourth is E, which again you need to diminish to make a perfect fourth from Bb, so the key signature for Bb is Bb and Eb. You keep doing this until you reach C again, so all the key signatures that contain flats are:

C:
F: Bb
Bb: Bb, Eb
Eb: Bb, Eb, Ab
Ab: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db
Db: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb
Gb: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb
Cb: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb

Cycle 5 is the same, but you go up in perfect fifths, to find all the key signatures with sharps. So if you start at C, then up a 5th is G. To make G major you have to augment the 7th so the key signature is F#. You carry on doing this back to C.

C:
G: F#
D: F#, C#
A: F#, C#, G#
E: F#, C#, G#, D#
B: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#
F#: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#
C#: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#

2) How many keys with sharps do we have in music? What about keys with flats?
Answer: 7 with flats, 6 with sharps.

4) What is the shortcut we use to move through cycle 4? What about cycle 5?
Answer: I think I answered this in my first question. That you always keep the sharp/flat from the key before, and augment the 7th (cycle 5), or diminish the 4th (cycle 4).
Pedja Simovic
All great Matt, you got it. Just small correction, 7 keys with flats and sharps! wink.gif
Matt23
Oh yeh. Must have forgotten how to count for a second then. smile.gif
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