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Oxac
Hey Pedja. Congratz on your new board, sorry for exploiting them already smile.gif

We have a minor blues context. EX.

| Cmin | Fmin |

There's various of things I could do here, like C - Dorian -> C aeolian, C - Mel... -> C Harmonic, combining them etc. But right before the switch I find myself (on the piano) playing either C# dorian or some C major scale, possibly with a min6.

What I've been reasoning towards is that the E leads nicely to F. But it's still in the Cmin context. If I'd start to play C# dorian in the beginning of the Cmin vamp it doesn't sound good at all.

Can i utilize this in my rythm playing as well? and are there other scenarios like this (where you change the so that it leads into the next)? Ofc, I don't mean "parallell" scenarios like Dm, Gm.

I hope you understand what I ment.

Best regards // Ox.
Pedja Simovic
Hey Olle,

This board is meant for questions like the one you asked so feel free to "abuse" it any time wink.gif

Let me answer to your question in simplest yet best way possible.

When switching from C min to F min in minor blues (I min to IV min) what you are doing is actually "forcing" as soloist some sort of C7 (C dominant 7th) melody that leads and resolves nicely into F minor. Harmony player can do this and in fact most jazz players would throw in C7 towards the end of the bar (maybe last two beats or even for the whole bar!). The reason why that works is because it sets up nicely sound to new minor chord and center - in this particular case F minor is new key center, C7 is dominant 7th chord from F (5th scale degree dominant 7th chord) and it works.
Now, C# Dorian works also, here is the reason why.
In jazz music we use something that is called tritone substitution. This term and concept is applied when we have dominant chord (in this case C7) and we substitute it with another dominant chord by interval of tritone (augmented 4th or diminished 5th - 3 whole tones away from note). Tritone from C is F# or Gb but for enharmonic reasons lets say its F# (augmented 4th).
F#7 is dominant 7th chord in key of? Answer is in key of B major or harmonic melodic minor. Now C# Dorian comes from which key ? Key of B major! So now you see how both C# Dorian and F# Mixolydian (5th scale degree in major scale, mixolydian mode by default) are both related. I hope it is clear now why C# Dorian sounds cool towards the end (to set up resolution for F min).

There are other "tricks" that you can use but most of them would involve some sort of II V pattern (in this case G min7 C7 leading into F min or C#min7 F#7 leading into F min or G min7 F#7 into F min etc). You can also use harmonies from given dominant keys to enrich your melodies further.

Regarding playing over just C min part and making it work, you pretty much summed up important minor scales. I would add to that a lot more in terms of superimposing with arpeggios and modes that come from harmonic and melodic minor that could also work over simple minor chord. In the end, don't forget importance of pentatonic scales! You can also solo and superimpose with them, not even to mention triadic type soloing (chord tones and tensions, hexatonics etc).

I hope this response was useful to you Olle. Feel free to ask any questions !

Pedja
Frederik
I dont get that C7 should lead to f MINOR. shouldt it lead to f Major, or it relative minor dm? not fm.

and just out of curiosity. can u thinks of all this theory while you improvise? or have you prepared urself for the chordprogression beforehand?

-Frederik

Nice topic BTW
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Frederik @ Aug 18 2009, 10:16 PM) *
I dont get that C7 should lead to f MINOR. shouldt it lead to f Major, or it relative minor dm? not fm.

and just out of curiosity. can u thinks of all this theory while you improvise? or have you prepared urself for the chordprogression beforehand?

-Frederik

Nice topic BTW


Good questions Frederik !

If we look at the F natural minor (Aeolian mode) we will see that 5th scale degree C is actually Minor 7th chord. So if we look at F minor being Aeolian sounding, C7 wouldn't fit. However, F harmonic and melodic minor both have C7 chord on their 5th scale degree and that is the reason why C7 works and resolves perfectly into F minor smile.gif
Here is the layout of F Aeolian Harmonic and Melodic minor with their 5th scale degrees separated.

F Aeolian = F G Ab Bb C D Eb F = 5th scale degree is C note
Chord from 5th scale degree is C Eb G Bb (building chords using diatonic 3rds, every other note in the scale from starting note!). C Eb G Bb is Minor 7th chord because it has Minor 3rd, Perfect 5th and Minor 7th from Root of the chord.

F Harmonic minor = F G Ab Bb C Db E F = 5th scale degree is C note
Chord from 5th scale degree is C E G Bb
C E G Bb is Dominant 7th chord because it has Major 3rd, Perfect 5th and Minor 7th from Root of the chord.

F melodic minor = F G Ab Bb C D E F = 5th scale degree is C note
Chord from 5th scale degree is C E G Bb
C E G Bb is Dominant 7th chord because it has Major 3rd, Perfect 5th and Minor 7th from Root of the chord.

I hope this answers your first question Frederik.

As far as improvising go, in order to use all these cool things, you have to be aware that they exist and learn about them. That basically means studying it to extent until it becomes automatic (just like you know alphabet, this should be musical alphabet in your head). There is no other way to apply this in real time. The best way is to learn about it, understand it, then start applying it in your soloing.

I will of course do demonstration on this in future so you can have sound association with text explanation.
Oxac
Thanks Pedja, that really cleared things up smile.gif

-edit- one mustn't forget the minor blues scale smile.gif with an added maj7
Pedja Simovic
You welcome Olle, glad I could help man smile.gif
Frederik
Cool biggrin.gif thanks for the detailed explanation
harmonizing other scales than the scales that are extracted from then major (dorian, phrygian, aeolian etc.) its new to me, it might open up a new dimention of the way i think of composing smile.gif thanks

#typo
Pedja Simovic
Excellent Frederik. I am very happy that this little discussion already opened up some new ways of thinking for you smile.gif
Frederik
Just noodled around with tritone substitution and i really like the effekt. its really jazzy biggrin.gif
Tolek
Great explanation! Thanks Pedja. I never focused much on Jazz theory and I regret not having known this before. laugh.gif I hope you'll discuss a lot of interesting topics. Now, you have your board and this should be no problem. biggrin.gif
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Frederik @ Aug 19 2009, 10:01 PM) *
Just noodled around with tritone substitution and i really like the effekt. its really jazzy biggrin.gif


Jazzy indeed smile.gif


QUOTE (Tolek @ Aug 21 2009, 10:32 AM) *
Great explanation! Thanks Pedja. I never focused much on Jazz theory and I regret not having known this before. laugh.gif I hope you'll discuss a lot of interesting topics. Now, you have your board and this should be no problem. biggrin.gif


You welcome Tolek. We will start from basics and cover everything until advanced topics. I hope you will enjoy all the forum lessons and articles smile.gif
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