I've had bad hand pain over the past six months, so bad that I quit playing after it simply hurt too much to play. It all started when I practiced every day for half an hour, not too much I thought, but the constant use of hand and fingers to find chords that stretched my hands in new and unusual (not normal for me) ways took its toll on my tendons and muscles, or at least it feels like that is what happened. Now, after stopping playing for 3 months my hand feels better but the 4th finger still hurts to play. the rest of the hand is doing much better, I'm learning to just cool it and not play through pain.

I'm posting the video of my hand position while playing so maybe someone here who is an expert can tell me if my position is wrong. Anything you can add or see that is not right could help me discover how to get back to playing the guitar daily again.

I do think I need to stop playing for another month or two so my 4th finger can come back out of pain. The rest really does help. I have tried ice packs but rest does the best to heal the problem.

Thanks for input,

Ken

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFSfYEkoR3c

Hello Ken !

I am sorry to hear about your hand pain !

I am not an Expert on guitar technic so i am sure soon there will be some real use full answers from our Mentors here

For your hand pain i am sure myself it would be better to let those fingers and your hand rest some more weeks- it looks like

Tendinitis .

Have ya been at doctor yet ?


So the next week just do some right hand guitar exercises rhythm / stroke Stuff !?


All the Best for You , i am sure soon will be everything OK !

Dieter

Yes, I've never had this problem myself, but it would suck to not be able to play

Once you recover, it may be a good idea to try some gentle stretches in my fingers before playing. I gently pull back each finger for about 20 secs. I think it allows the muscles and tendons to loosen up

So sorry to hear that!
Not be able to play the guitar and then feel the frustration of waiting...thats bad
But u are doing the best. To rest and let the hand say when its ready to go again. I'm sure u will be there soon again

I have had similar problems for the past years now and it goes up and down. But mine is permanent..Worn (?) out wrists after to heavy work I guess.
Some chords and high notes on the strings near mics especially thicker strings are almost impossible to play due to the pain.
But overall its ok

Well, hope you come back very soon!

Very bad news We had some similar issues here, with other users. Usually best idea is to visit doctor. This might be something more than overpractice As from what I see at the vid there is nothing clearly wrong with You position. Maybe try to use strap and a hang Your guitar closer to the neck so You would not have to reach some "hurting" shapes with neck being too low.

Hi Ken - so sorry to hear about these troubles. You should be very careful with your playing, not to cause any more damage.

I have studied your video and only thing that jumps out at me is your fretting hand thumb. It seems to be hanging over the neck, especially when playing chords. Now, I know some people can play like that without a problem but I just tried to fret those chords using that hand position and it has put a lot of stress on my fretting hand, especially when moving the little finger to fret extensions which involve stretching.

Have you tried the "classical guitar" playing position where your fretting hand thumb is supporting the other fingers from the opposite side of the neck (it usually stays around the middle of the neck)? In this position you do need to push your whole hand a bit to form a more perpendicular angle towards strings.

Maybe worth testing a fretting hand position like this one : http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/The_Origin_of_Fandangos/

Of course, this issue might not be related strictly to hand positioning and posture but it should be worth experimenting with ways to remove any stress on the hands when playing (to extent possible). When you feel pain, stop and do some theory or strictly right hand exercises while resting the fretting hand to avoid making things worse.

Hi Ken, that's a shame to hear about your hand issues. I remember reading something from Troy Stetina, a renowned teacher, where he talked about a tendon injury he sustained to his (I think) little finger because he was practising a classical piece of music which required a lot of stretchy chords. It put him out of action for a fair amount of time.. I found the link here. It may or may not be useful but if anything it should show that even someone like him had to leave the guitar alone for a while

http://www.stetina.com/popstips/12_avoidproblems2.html

One thing I learned was that people often think that tendons and ligaments stretch. They don't stretch.. muscles do but not the other guys. So anything that does 'stretch' a tendon is an injury to the tissue. So I wouldn't be surprised that it takes a long time to heal itself again.

Your hand position in general looks fine to me but I notice you tend to use you fingers in isolation when performing bends. Although it can be done, it requires you to use a heck of a load more power in your fingers then if you combined your 'dormant' fingers together and rested them on the neck to add strength and 'bolster' the bend.

My following vid may be about vibrato but I talk about this approach of using your idle fingers to add strength to bending and vibrato.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlY0-YAFta4

I do wonder whether using your little finger to try and bend a string had made your tendon go twang !? It's a lot of string tension to overcome by one little finger, which is often seen as the weakest finger.

Hey guys, I'm really getting some good insight and help here. I'll look into each possibility, especially seeing my doctor as, as you all know, it is no fun to have to stop playing. It's my guess that it is some type of tendonitis in combination with over stretching and using the hand improperly with bends. I'm excited about playing the guitar and it has been easy to 'push' and not 'think' about the fact that there is work being done and it is a good idea to preserve the capability of the hand and not think that nothing will ever go wrong.

I agree that rest is the main course of action for the next few months. It is so hard to not pick up the guitar and try playing again, but that just aggravates the problem, as it did even for making this short video. I met a renowned baroque violinist who lost his ability to play entirely and in his early recordings he played the violin like it was on fire. What a loss to the passion he brought to his performances.

I'll comb through these responses in the days ahead as I want to try all of the ideas. One thing that I can do that involves playing is strumming, rhythm, which is always good using the right hand, and theory, both which are profitable to pursue.

Thanks to each and all here,

Ken

Hi mat, I'm sorry to hear about this. I would ad to the other instructor's comments that it's very important to warm up and do some stretches correctly before you start your playing routine. This will also make you feel more relaxed while you practice, which is something very important to take care of your hands an fingers.

Please check this video where you will find Petrucci explaining how to Stretch:

Thank You for the 'warming up' exercise video also. All of this is good for every musician to be aware of. What we don't know CAN hurt us.

Hey Ken, lowering the entire hand and thus the thumb too as many have pointed out seem like the only problem with your hand posture. HOWEVER I DO NOT think that there's anything wrong with your hand posture, you seem to be quite relaxed and have a good shoulder/arm/wrist relationship going on. You might be pressing a bit too hard from what I can tell, so be aware if you're noticing that it feels like you're doing that.

The other thing that many people don't know(and if you do it's worth mentioning again): Eat vegetables, drink water. Tho many people disregard this for a long time in their playing, countless of musicians say that if they don't eat vegetables and drink plenty of water they start to develop tendonitis, and when they start eating and drinking well again it goes away...

Here's an example of a grand musician who talks about a tendonitis problem and the impact food had on him. He's not only great, he's one of the best.

I see this sort of thing rather frequently and suffered it myself a long time ago. It might be something small but it might be Carpal Tunnel Syndrome which can ruin your playing forever. There is only one thing to do .



You may need to be referred to a specialist or a physical therapist. But either way, this is not the type of thing to muck about with. Nobody here is a Doctor, so not matter what advice you get, NONE of it will be from a someone that can provide an accurate diagnosis. So first go see a doc, then try some of the things you are likely to see in a thread like this.

1.)Stretch your hands/arms before and after playing.
2.)Never play to the point of pain
3.)Examine the ergonomics of your playing.
4.)Etc.

I had to wear braces on both arms for six months after jacking myself up like this and refusing to see a doctor Please do take care of yourself!!


Todd

Thanks Todd, This is exactly how serious this is. I am going in to see my Doctor, but I still see all of the great comments here as coming from experience also. No one here is guessing but all are speaking from actual experience. At the very least this is a completely supportive community of musicians and to me that is priceless.

Thanks, to each and every one,

Ken

Hey Ken!

I guess that the conclusion is pretty clear, you should see a DOC asap and after that, I want to recommend a warmup routine that works absolutely great for me:

Yep, get to the doctor! And be sure to stretch and warm up on the guitar like has been suggested.

Can't add much more than has been said.

See doctor
Warm ups and stretches

Better seated position when playing or play standing up
Thumb at the back of the neck
Fret lightly

Oh boy, these are incredible responses, and great videos too. This thread would be valuable to anyone (everyone) who plays the guitar. These are things I never knew about or imagined before. I mean, guitar - you just jump in a play don't you?

Anyway, I've got the doctor's appointment set up for this coming Friday, and, as it turns out, the receptionist plays guitar too and she and I had a nice talk about how important music is and how I don't want to give it up. I'm still resting until my 4th finger is back to normal, but then going back to playing with a whole new arsenal of information, plus what the Doctor has to say to me on Friday.

Yipee,

Thanks Again Everyone,

Ken

I almost always take care of my hands before starting to play - using that video I posted it's very effective!

Never neglect your warmup ever and let us know what the doc says on Friday, ok?

Okay, Dr. knows best. At the conclusion of Dr. appointment, he said not going to do x-ray as history I outlined to him would probably show some injury from overuse, but as this recovers when I put down the instrument, over time (I stopped playing for 3 months at this last occurrence and now only have 4th finger pain) he referred me to a hand therapist. I have four sessions scheduled over the next month. I may have to bring my guitar in at some point to demonstrate how I am playing. This is a highly qualified specialist at a large hospital and I really have hopes that this will lead to discovery and treatment that will allow me to play without injury or pain in the future.

While the warm-up videos shown here are all good, they vary between players and each works in particular for individual players. I'm encouraged that now I will be evaluated on my individual playing and physiological make-up by a specialist.

Can't do better than that. I'll follow through with this because playing is important to me and I have high hopes of seeing this barrier fall.

Thank Guys,


Ken

Glad to hear the Doc doesn't think there is serious injury.



I couldn't help but picturing bunch of Doctors pulling out their guitars at this big hospital for a medical jam session!

Best of luck Ken!

Maybe I can break into a little jammin' on 'The knee bone's connected to the leg bone"

I'll report back here if anyone is interested in the outcome.


Thanks Blister,

K

Hahaha. I hope it works out well, please report back!

Joking aside - as that really cracked me up - I hope they will discover the cause and help you get through with things quickly!

Since this Topic was posted I decided to go into my Doctor to talk about it. He referred me to a Hand Therapist and now, after a few weeks of going there, I am doing exercises every day which are strengthening my hands but I'm afraid the damage has already been done to my small finger on the left hand, as it continues to hurt. No heat pads, no ice packs, and no other things have changed the damage that has been done. All I can hope for is that time will heal the problem.

I have a call in to my Hand Therapist about a popping sensation when I try to do pinch exercises with the thumb opposing the small finger. This does not seem good and I don't know if I should continue the exercises for this small finger because of this new awareness of a problem.

Ick, I just want to play the guitar, but this has been some roadblock.

Hi Ken, I'm so sorry of hearing this. I hope that you evolve goodd and finally could heal this problem. Try to follow all doctors instructions and exercises, and don't play guitar if it hurts. I wish you all the best mate.

Make sure to tell your health providers every single detail and share every concern with them. When new things come up, make sure they all know about it. They may need to give you additional treatment.

I feel your pain. I was self injured for 6 months and couldn't play. It was like being dead in a way. Wait, scratch that, I've been dead and this was worse. Not playing was like torture. I"ve always been compelled to practice and when I can't I get really stressed and agitated. Just hate it. I hope it's not that bad for you. One thing that helped was actually writing guitar riffs in my head and tabbing them out on paper.

Todd

I'm glad you posted an update Ken. But I would be concerned if after a month therapy hasn't seemed to help, that maybe it's time to see the doctor again, if the therapist can't give a valid explanation of the persistent pain. And if the Doc isn't a hand specialist, maybe that could be looked into.

It has to be terribly frustrating not to be able to play your guitar but maybe you could focus on theory, scales, memorizing notes on the fretboard, etc.

I hope my twisted humor didn't come across as insensitive, as that was not my intent.

Twisted humor is a good thing in light of injury preventing playing guitar. I'm staying on top of this and will either, find a solution, achieve a healed hand over time, or, give up guitar for a while and let the hand have a complete break. I know that doctors can only do so much. I'll follow this through to any reasonable solution and am prepared to 'face the music' on whatever the outcome is.

Hey Ken! Stay strong mate As the guys suggested - it's a good time to work on your theoretical knowledge and also, you could start arranging and writing, by using your computer and music software. You will have a A LOT to learn even without the guitar in your hands and once you can go back to it, you will have a tremendous arsenal of knowledge to use

I would think also that hand injury, proper posture while playing, warnings to others to not force play through pain, would be an area of discussion and even warning for newcomers to playing. It may not be needed by everyone, but it seems that proper warm-ups and awareness of the issues would be crucial to everyone who wants to get serious about playing guitar. The hard part about this subject is that you feel good when you don't need it, so it's an easy area of problem to fall into.

I'll be sure to follow up here if new information or changes come about. It's everyone's hope that we can put these things behind us, so the best news we could share is the 'after' part where we emerge restored to good health without pain. I'm still believing that at some point that will happen.

Alright, please keep us posted regarding your progress and let me know if you would like to work together on your theoretical knowledge

I have cancelled all future therapy sessions as I am having pain from the exercises now. It also doesn't make sense to me to do exercises when you have an injury. I will be my own doctor in this instance now and prescribe complete rest with some playing that is not painful. I'm interested in theory and would like to study all of the modes and gain more familiarity with the notes and relative place in the scale that I am playing. It would be good to have mastery over this area. I will take great care and play what is only not painful. I believe this will heal over time with a careful proceeding ahead.

Rest is a good idea Try some very light stretching as long as it's not painful. No matter what you are doing, if it hurts, stop.

I watched your video Ken first of all I have had suffered from tendonitis before, it flares up and it takes 6 months to completely go away. I would`nt worry too much but take a break.

Your posture on the video is terrible and if I play sitting down in a computer chair it makes my had go numb because I move my elbow either up or over to avoid the arm.

If I play sitting down its on a higher stool with no arms and foot rails but 99.8% of the time I practice standing up and that has really helped my tendonitis and arm issues.

There also is the factor of playing a guitar that is not comfortable with too large of strings.

Thin necks just kill my wrists I like a medium to fat neck, my Les Paul is as big as they made them.

Playing in pain sometimes is part of the deal but it`s a good indicator that it`s either your posture, the guitar neck, or the size of strings that is bothering you.


I play fairly large strings on a fat neck but I don`t have to fight it at all, it`s effortless fretting, to be able to play hard you have to work out on a comfortable guitar.

Good luck to you

Thanks for every post, and especially from those who have the experience of playing and realizing pain. Tendonitis is probably what I am suffering from. My problem with posture in my video is also bad due to the fact that I was making a video and was only trying to put my hand playing position in front of the camera. I normally sit up straight and have the neck strap on. It was really hand position that I was trying to show, but you are right, for this video I was slouched and not using a good sitting position.

I think I've been through it for medical attention on this issue and I do understand the value in stretching exercise before playing. I have a routine that I can use which follows the exercises given to me by my Dr. the Hand Therapist and I will use those, at least the one's that did not hurt. They also gave me a large, appropriately selected for consistency for my hand, wad of silly putty or something very similar, to squeeze and use for exercises also. This was worth the price of admission just for the fun of playing with that stuff. Anyway, I digress. I will be resting, taking appropriate amounts of playing that I can work with, and also studying theory and modes.

Bottom line, it is not unusual for some people to have hand problems if they have tendonitis and it is now my job to work with it and live with it as best I can.


All is well that ends well.

Ken

Hello Ken I will be happy to assist with the theory, so to begin with, please take a look over the notes in the threads bellow - we will start here and after reading, I would be curious to hear your thoughts so we can take it from there

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=48699
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=47641

I appreciate your willingness to help me Cosmin, I've already taken nine years of formal violin lessons, can play in all keys and also studied keyboard formally with lots of theory training, so I have some background in that. I've been to maybe a second year level of theory studies but beyond that I realized that it was turning into a complex subject like advanced calculus and I just do not have an interest or mind to follow it into that depth. What I do want to know is where I am at with the guitar in constructing scales and modes. This will take practice also as seeing it on paper and knowing where it is on the guitar by feel are two different levels of understanding. I would prefer to learn on the guitar first and then be able to write it down on paper.

Hey Ken! I understand so, the guitar is involved somehow in this procedure anyway... is there any way you can play at all these days, or you have to stay completely away from the instrument?

I'm picking up the guitar on occasion and using just the first three fingers on my left hand. The fourth finger is the one that gives a shock of pain if I use it in any more than the slightest touch. This is fine because there is much in playing and practicing that only needs the slightest touch as all I am looking for is the training at this point. I can get into stronger playing when my hand is healed. I have memorized the notes for the fifth and sixth guitar strings at this point and can play aeolian, Ionian and Dorian mode pentatonic scales in any key. I must say that what I am finding out about the guitar at this point is that it is a very cool instrument.

I see, I see This is still good and we can work things out! Here's what I have in mind: Since you wish to exercise with modes why not start with working your ears combined with theoretical knowledge in a practical context

Ionian Mode

1) Harmonize the C major scale using major and minor chords and the diminished one

2) Sing the F and B notes against each of the chords when you play them and listen to their sounds - can you reproduce the correct pitch?

This is great ear training and you will make sure to be able to deploy the characteristic scale degrees of this mode in the context of any chord derived by harmonizing the mode - priceless for improvising and composing lines, in my opinion

I'm assuming the doctor is a hand specialist since you were referred to a hand therapist. I'm am not a doctor but had nerve problems in my back that required surgery many years ago. My pain was serious & constant and now I live completely pain free.

Have the doctor & therapist said whether any more damage could happen by playing? Is the pain only when playing guitar? Have you considered getting a second opinion? I avoid doctors as much as I can (it's a man-thing, right?) but I would check into all options if I could be pain-free.

Excellent, I will get right on this. Thank You Cosmin. I'll let you know how it's coming along.



Really good advice. I feel that I can be free of this pain which is triggered by certain positions of the 4th finger, by simply resting from playing, as most of the pain triggering positions are experienced when playing. Good insight on doctors and I agree wholeheartedly and will be looking into going elsewhere for opinions as I am not getting to the bottom of this yet medically. Thanks so very much.

Great Ken! Looking forward to your impressions

Already working on it. It's fun to learn new things in music. Thanks Cosmin, you've opened up some new areas for me.
I'll get back here in a few days with some comments and questions for sure.

Always a pleasure man I Always thought that applying theory and working your ears are a very important part of making music and developing your power of self expression!