Hi Ben! This is our thread to explore, train and stimulate our creativity and composing abilities. I think that this thread mustn't be structured so feel free to do random chats, to post miscellaneous videos, photos, thoughts and feelings. We will work on theory stuff but mostly on real music. I think that it would be interesting to analyze some of your favorite music but in a modern way, writing down the most used concepts and ways to arrange.

At the same time, it would be cool to use this thread as a library of ideas, so let's feel free to record and post here riffs, licks, that can be continued by you and me at any moment. In the end, maybe we can have some songs composed together, who knows?

I would like to know a bit more about you and your relation with composition. Feel free to write whatever comes to mind here.

Hey Gabriel!

This was exactly the kind of thread I had in mind! A place for ideas, a library of ideas as you said, and a place to develop some compositional skills and so on.

I used to compose solely in Guitar Pro, but never recorded much, because I used to write just outside of my playing ability thinking I'd push myself to become better that way. So maybe I could play all the stuff, but not at the tempo I wanted it in in the song. From that I can present you these two "songs" in Guitar Pro:



I have written them using the midi only, so I don't know how they sound with RSE if that is something you might use.

But these two have been written 5 years or more back. And that's the last fully thing I wrote. I want to go away from writing that way though, and instead writing a bit more of something I'm capable of recording and playing. That's probably a much healthier approach, I think.

So I'm thinking about starting a library of ideas (on my computer as well as in this thread), where I have recorded ideas and maybe also the tabs for the ideas.

I have always found it much easier to write drums in Guitar Pro and then edit in Cubase as it's much faster for me that way, and it's easier to figure out tempo, how long the riff from the guitar is and so on.

When it comes to music I like, I'll give you a few examples. I would like to write more in a progressive metal/djent genre like this:



But in general I listen to all music, and I would actually like to incorporate various genres into my songs. One of my biggest problems is that I find it a lot easier to write when I have lyrics, but these days I can't come up with lyrics either

Another thing, which I have mentioned in another thread is that I can come up with a lot of riffs or ideas that I think are nice, but I can never seem to connect them, or I get stuck with the same riff for several minutes.

As for theory, I know quite a bit, I'd say, but I tend to get a bit stuck with it these days, so I get stuck in one key or I feel like I'm writing inside the box, when I really want to write outside the box.

Oh, and I tend to be a bit perfectionistic when it comes to music, and I want that gone! It's a big hindrance!

Here's a bit of a short test of an idea I did a while back:

Click to view attachment


I hope that gave a bit of a picture of where I'm and so on.

Ok! This will be very cool! You are a very skilled composer and it seems that you are not noting it yet. Based on your posts, I think that you are lacking some kind of motivation that pushes you to develop the ideas, to finish songs, to start new ones. And that's the main thing that I would like this thread changes.

I listened to your Guitar pro songs and there I can hear a technical Ben, who can create long songs with lots of riffs, musical ideas, smooth connections, weird phrasings, original drum grooves without any problem. This means that you have a clever mind. I find both pieces a bit "empty", they are lacking soul, and I suspect that the reason can be one of these:

- You wrote them with midi, and in the end it's a mathematical process.
- There wasn't a story or idea that made you create that stuff.

I say: what a cool rhythm, that riff is interesting, wou, good change, but I don't feel like listening to a story, I don't get into something deep.

Does this happen to you?

Then, the riff, it's very in the style of.. Periphery, Cloud kicker and all that Djent style, it's a good first step because it sounds professional, but the goal here would be to listen more Ben than his influences in his music. This is not something that suddenly appears, it requires practicing and training, it's a search. And the only way to do this search is composing a lot of stuff.

On this first week, I think that it would be cool if you can write and post here as many riffs and musical parts that you can, and then I will help you to keep the cooler ones... some type of producer job. I recommend you to do something similar to my Creativity Workout I, using photos, or stories to inspired yourself. Get into them, and try to write melodies, musical ideas that you feel. I can share some pics here if it's needed. Just let me know.

At the same time, I think that it would be cool if you take any of those songs and analyze it. Those are really complex songs but you should find the way to write down some info about structure, tonality, scales, chord progressions and arrangements used.

Thanks for the long reply, it's much appreciated! And thanks for the compliments on being a skilled composer, even if I'm not sure I agree - as I can't do it on a regular basis for one thing.

I know what you mean about lacking soul, and you are exactly right, they were written without real inspiration, but more just as something I had to push through to get done, if you know what I mean? So of course they feel empty. I still like some of the ideas in them and I might re-use some of those at some point - we will see.

It is a very djenty riff, yes. It's a genre I'd like to write in, but of course with trying to add something new, but you gotta take a first step. And I'm not that familiar with writing djent yet, so it's what it is. I wrote it a while back and I'm not sure I like it a 100% anymore.
I will try and be more Ben!

I think it's a very cool plan for a first week. I will try and record the ideas I have and share them with you. If it's possible I will try and add drums too and other instruments.

I will also try doing the second thing you mentioned about writing info down about song structures, tonality, chords and scales and such.

Excellent! Sounds like a plan.

I would like to receive frequent updates, and also to discuss about other topics here so feel free to keep on sharing stuff here.

And once again, yes, you're skilled! Just need practice and motivation.

Here's a first idea. The mix is terrible though, of course, but I just wanted to focus on getting something done instead of concentrating on the mix now:

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The riff is in (4/4 + 3/4) x3 then 5/4 + 4/4

Wou! this is top quality man! It's a very good intro for a song (or at least for the first part of it). As soon as it finished I imagined some more melodic section, maybe not a melody but you know, those type of parts with a catchy chords cadence and maybe some clean arpeggios or guitar melodies. Drums marking the cuts... something around this chords: Cm - Bb - Db - Db. How does it sound for you?

Hey Gabriel, I posted this in another thread as well, but I guess you could call it a new idea too:

Another great introduction and addition to the ideas library.

I'm saving this stuff at my computer to check it from time to time. If you continue uploading stuff as quickly, we will be able to start giving shape to the songs soon.

I'm sure that you know him.. do you like his music?

I've never heard of him before, but I quite like him!

I'll try and post up some more stuff tonight maybe.

Great! Check his stuff because I think that he has something that your ideas are lacking, more melodic stuff. He keeps sounding modern but adds catchy sections into their song to make instrumental music easier to hear.

Only thing is with a lot of these players, they have a much wider and better skillset than I do. I find it difficult to actually sometimes play the ideas I have in my head.

Why? What happens? Does it take too many time to find the notes that you imagine in your fret board?

My head and hands just doesn't coordinate that well at times I might think: "badadada dum dum djentadjenta, da da da dum dum, badadada dadada djentadjenta dum dum" in my head and then it comes out as: "puff puff fluffy puff" on the guitar.

Do you think that this can be an ear issue? Do you usually learn solos and songs by ear? Does it take too much work?

I've grown up on tabs, so that's what I mainly use. I can use my ear, but it takes a long time. Also, I may be exaggerating before. If I have an idea in my head I can play it somewhat on guitar, but it's not always completely right.

My suggestion is that you record it, no matter if it's not clear. You can slowly clarify the idea. This is how I think our mind works related to creativity. Creative stuff is there in our unconscious side of the mind, and we have to be able to glimpse it. This happens clearer with music but this can be apply to ideas in general. The deeper we become the more connected to that side of the mind we are, and the clearer the ideas start to show. So don't worry if you are not able to materialize an idea clearer by once, this is something natural. Record the ideas and polish them with time. And this last word: "time" is also very important, we must give time to our mind, and this time should be like a stand by, if we tend to logical treatment of the ideas, the creativity disappears and we end the idea as a technician. Give time to your mind to slowly show the ideas clearer...

I'll try and record - clear or not.

I've just remembered something that's very close to how I write and which I feel would be a likely first step in terms of how to build a song, both technically, structurally and so on, the sound and feel...:



I know it's not all that melodic, except for the part at 4:50.

They also have somewhat more melodic songs though:

I can notice a connection between this band and the guitar pro that you shared before. The first song is very technical and starts to have some deepness when the vocals appear, the instrumental parts are more like technique etudes. The second one is more melodic as you said, and has shorter instrumental sections, so it transmits me much more. The first one is more enjoyable to be played while the other to be heard (at least for me, based on my musical taste).

I would like to give you a tricky assignment for this week.

The goal is simple: Compose a song in 1 week.

Some things to have in mind:

- No matter if the different parts don't fit always one after the other, just continue the song until you have it finished. (We have time to make the connections smoother)
- If you decide to write an instrumental, compose it based on a the feeling that you get from a picture, a story of a movie. Keep that feeling and story in mind during the whole process.
- If you are a bit lost, take one of your favorite songs and write down it's structure. This will be the structure that you will use in your song. It will be your structure template.
- Where to start? You can take one of the riffs that you shared here, or start with something completely new.
- Deadline: There are no excuses. The song must be ready here on April 23th.
- I'm not expecting the best song ever, I'm expecting a finished song that then we can produce, edit, etc.
- Use the method that you find easier to write drums and bass, but record real guitars.


Are you in?

Sounds like a good plan! But is there any chance we can push the deadline to maybe 25th for this first week and then keep it to the plan after that, so the week after will only be 5 days? I'll be gone from my computer and guitar from later today till Sunday evening and I won't have much time to work on things, but I really like the idea here.

Ok! Let's go for it. Deadline is now 25th. I'm really anxious to know the results of this...

Hey! I've not got a finished project just yet, but this is what I'm planning on recording:

Click to view attachment

I felt it was easier to write it down in Guitar Pro first, but maybe I'll take another approach next time.

Also, I sprained my little finger during football yesterday, but I'll try the best I can to record.

Maaan, my rythm playing is so untight and I'm about to lose my mind trying to record this

It's sounding VERY interesting man! I like how this one evolved. It has that ingredient that you were lacking. Can't wait to hear the real guitar version!

Any tips for getting things tighter when recording? I'm double tracking everything and that makes it sound better, but it's difficult for me getting everything as tight as I want it to be.

When you say tight, are you meaning to the mix or to your playing?

Actually both, but mostly my playing I'd say.

As for the mix, I know it'd be better if I went and hand picked velocity for drum hits and so on, but I'm not gonna be able to make that before tomorrow, so the drums and bass will probably sound a bit dead.

Playing can be tighter with practice. By now you can record it in small parts and edit it a bit to have the demo, and then you can practice it. Regarding mix, don't worry too much, it would be a next step.

I only just got home and now I have to go see my parents for the weekend right after a meeting tomorrow. I will bring my laptop and try and record it while I'm there. I hope that's okay.

yeah! it's ok. Go and have a good time with your family.

I sent you a PM with the progress so far. I'm not really ready to share it on the forum

Hey Gabriel! I apologize for not having returned earlier. It's been almost 2 months, and I almost haven't played guitar in that time. I've been so focused on football that I lost track of everything else, but I want to get back at this. Now I'll probably have a break from football as well, as my knee is in terrible state and need some time off and some rehab. I could hardly walk after having played the last game 1½ week ago.

I had redecorated my attic storage space, as you remember, but then I had to move all my stuff from there almost 3 months ago as they were gonna do some work up there. Guess what, they haven't started yet, so I've put all my stuff back up there and will start using it for practicing again. Hopefully tonight.

Last few days I've also been caught up with the world cup. It's been a great one so far!

On a note that's a bit more on topic, I think I'm struggling with having to create a song a week, but I'm still very interested in building a library of licks and then perhaps a bit later on develop some songs. So, yeah, basically I'd like to get slowly into this instead of taking on too much and running my head against the wall. Hopefully I'm back from these 2 months with more inspiration than before... one bad thing is though that I've sprained my finger 1½ week ago during the last match of the season and it kinda hurts when I play guitar, but I might just play anyway.

Hi Cael! Welcome back!

This 2 months break seems to have been a good period to free your mind and get back to music with clearer thoughts and goals, more relaxed, and ready to enjoy the journey. I got a feeling that there are inspiring days coming for you and I would like to let it flow instead of block it with a lot of stuff o tasks.

Library of licks... that sounds great.

What about learning some licks or songs that could inspire you to create your own licks and ideas?

I like this approach by Marty Friedman, which is very related to my way of using GMC lessons.

What I actually meant was a library of riffs. I don't know why I wrote licks. But I guess it could be a combination of both!

By the way, here are two quick ideas I've had:

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Hey mate! It seems that this new guitar is giving you an amazing inspiration!! These two ideas are fantatic. I love the feeling of both, they sound like music for a movie or clip. Very interesting. You should start saving this ideas on the folder and maybe choosing names that represent the feeling each idea gives is a good way to then find them easily.

I'm really struggling with coming up with riffs that are longer than just say 1 or 2 meassures. It's frustrating me a great deal!

Sounds interesting... do you have some samples?

Hey Gabriel,

I'm not sure if you've seen my latest PM. But I'll try and record something tonight to show you what I meant by not being able to come up with longer riffs. And even if I come up with something that's okay in length, then I'm struggling with putting together riffs to make a whole song which I can be happy with.

Here's the sort of thing I come up with and then can't come further with. I know it's not a totally catchy 4/4 riff by the way But that's how I like to write I suppose.

Click to view attachment

And here's another thing without drums though, which is more like in 5/4 + 5/4 + 6/4.

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EDIT: And yet another one:

Click to view attachment

I come up with these riffs, and then I find it difficult to use for anything.

Hi Cael! Great to see you again here!

I've read your "excuses" message, checked that amazing clean intro, the awesome guitar pro song, and this 3 killer riffs and I can only say you are SO talented man. The fact that you are very strict with yourself is helping to create top level stuff and that's a great thing. You told me that the problem is being continuing this ideas, and that's when the strict and auto-critic is giving a negative thing.

When you say, I can't get something that makes me feel happy, by now I would say, you should feel happy if you can finish a song. That's the main goal. "Finishing" a song is not a real thing, there is always time to improve it, improve it and improve it. But we need to trust in ourselves and let the thing happen. A summary of bad ideas can be a road to get the right idea. If we block, we stay quiet, the song freezes, and frustrations appears...

From my personal experience, and my experience with students, I think that the unfinished songs phenomenon is very related to the lack of structure direction. If you imagine the overall structure of a song in your head, you will be able to visualize which parts are lacking and the whole thing starts to take shape.

This is the main reason why, the first task that I use to give on this workouts is to choose 5 favorite songs and analyze structure, arrangements and theory behind it. Song analysis is the way to go to improve our composition skills.

What do you think?

I'm glad you thought nice things of the stuff I've posted for you. I still really have no idea how to go on from any of these things. I can't imagine it in my head like I used to be able to do. I like the clean intro, but I don't know where to go from there. That's my main problem. It doesn't come natural to me anymore. Or maybe I'm trying too much to force it...

Let's use a song that you like as our structure template for developing one of those ideas, what do you say?

Sounds like a good idea. The songs that spring to mind though are songs like Erotomania and Dance of Eternity by Dream Theater. Or Overture 1928. Somewhat very complex songs.

Great ones! Let's analize the 3 of them, starting with the structure. It's tricky because in some of them, you won't identify verses and chorus, but you can talk about parts (A, B, C), bridges, solo sections, etc.

At first just write down the structures.

Well, as for Overture 1928, I had a look at it, and there's not that much repitition in it as such:

It starts of with an intro (Part A: pre-intro) that is similar to something from Metropolis Pt1, then goes into it's own intro (part , which I think is in D lydian. Now it moves on to part C, which works with larger open chords which are being arpeggiated. It then moves on to part D, which is a 3/4 typical Dream Theater style rock/metal riff, ending in a small reprise of the pre-intro/Metropolis Pt. 1 for 1 bar.

We then have a synth solo on top of the Part B. Then we have a guitar solo on a completely new backing in Bm. This guitar solo continues thereafter on a piano part and finally ends in part C again.

Then we have a key change to C#m, and continue with another guitar solo. After that we have sort of an interlude (part E), which then works to introduce a riff that will be used in the song Dance of Eternity. After that we have another synth solo and finally an outro.

Here's Erotomania in a bit different manner:

Intro that builds the foundation for when the other instruments kick in.
Part A
Part B
Part A
Part B
Part C-1.0
Part D
Part C-1.1
Prelude to solo
Guitar solo on top of Part A simplified
Part E
Part F (Similar 2 E, but expanded a bit)
Part G (Build up to acoustic part)
Part H (Acoustic part)
Part I (Build up to solo)
Guitar solo
Part J
Part K
Tempo change and Part L
Part C-1.2
Part M
Part N (classic part and build up to solo)
VERY FAST guitar solo in quintuplets!
Part O
Part A
Part B
Outro

Wow... so many parts!

Dance of Eternity is a bit much to go through right now, so I'll just stick with those two for now and maybe do Dance of Eternity later. I bet there are as many parts as in Erotomania.

Hi Cael! Good job! This is a very useful analysis. I followed both songs with your structure and it helped me to understand clearly the whole thing. I consider Erotomania even richer to analyse because it's a full instrumental song. The parts could be grouped in even bigger blocks that will make it easier to use as template:

First section:
Part A
Part B
Part A
Part B
Part C-1.0
Part D
Part C-1.1
Prelude to solo
Guitar solo on top of Part A simplified

Second section:
Part E
Part F (Similar 2 E, but expanded a bit)
Part G (Build up to acoustic part)
Part H (Acoustic part)

Third section
Part I (Build up to solo)
Guitar solo
Part J
Part K
Tempo change and Part L
Part C-1.2
Part M
Part N (classic part and build up to solo)
VERY FAST guitar solo in quintuplets!
Part O

Four section:
Part A
Part B
Outro


I think that it would be a good idea to use Erotomania as a template for your next song. If you agree, let's start building the first section. Do you think that you already have ideas that could fit as parts A, B and C ?

It's a good idea, I just don't have anything that I consider a good intro for such a thing. The best intro I can think of is the arpeggiated clean one. But I wouldn't say it works for this maybe. I'm not sure.

I'm going to be away from tomorrow till Sunday though, but I'll give it a good think meanwhile!

Let's save it maybe for a clean section in the middle...

Hey Gabriel.

I am back from my weekend away. It was quite the disappointment unfortunately. I even ended up going home earlier than planned.

Anyway, I will try and come up with something useful as soon as possible. Or just anything that would work.

Hi Cael, welcome back! I hope that you could rest this days off. I'll wait for your news.