Isn't that an interesting point. All over the world, on different continents if people separated from eachother groups of people have developed a belief in a higher being. And the way of practicing ones religion have similarities such as an object before which you pray, hymns, a place to summon worshipers, a God, a sacrifice wether it's money or goats, etc.

In different places by people compljetely separated.

For all I care
- aliens could have landed across the earth and demanded all these things hence the similarities in practice.
- there's infact one or several Gods
- it's just how people evolve, in need of something to belive in which will answer the big questions


On a side note and not adressed to anyone in particular. What I personaly dislike in this kind of discussion is that people too often refer to proof. And especially when asking someone to present profe of a negation, such as prove to me evolution is wrong! That's just not possible and the burdon to present proof always lies on the one presenting his case. I think noone will ever be able to prove neither the big bang nor that there's a God. Adressing ones discussion parners humbly instead of being cocky would in my opinion be the only right thing imho.
By all means, be confident. But stay humble to keep the discussion active and to not scare away discussion partners with another opinion. There's no victory in that. Wouldn't it be great if we solved this matter once and for all, here at GMC

I am afraid it took several billion years for the universe to become what it is today. Circular motion and gravity is what conceived the spheres that we know as planets. That is astrophysics. The interspecies fossils you talk about are so ancient (older than the dinosaurs) that preservation is highly unlikely. For more information, read some scientific journals or text-books on the topic. I believe you have one misconception that needs to be cleaned up. Like guitar, nothing comes within weeks, but months or years. If you blow up a pile of bricks, it won't turn into a school. Compared to the Big Bang, there was FAR more energy involved, and the reason why the spheres were conceived (as I already said) was circular motion and gravity. Presence of water and hydrocarbons permitted the evolution of life... You could even say that within 14 billion years, it is a pretty remote chance of obtaining a planet like the Earth, fertile and accomodating to life. Heard of the butterfly's wings that causes a hurricane on the other side of the world? What if something minute had changed in the 14 billion years of the development of the universe? The Earth may have been siituated where either Venus or Mars are orbiting, and the climate would be unbarable, despite God's intention.

"What harm has religion done in your opinion?" Well this question wasn't directed at myself, but I have already answered it in previous posts. Moreover, religion prevents free thinking. I mentioned the Dark Ages. If you haven't read all of my posts, I won't spend more time rewriting my opinions.

In my opinion, religion is a way for mankind to understand the non-understandable. Whether it is true or false, people do not like not knowing, and therefore, you can feed them anything to cover up the holes that science has not yet filled. The Romans used to believe that Vulcanus was the cause of volcanic eruptions and earthquakes, 2000 years later we now know that it is merely a matter of sliding between tectonic plates and occasional magma outbursts from the Earth's core due to the immensely high pressure and temperature.



I am merely sharing what I have learned about history and culture. In the school system I'm following (International Baccalaureate) there is a subject called Theory of Knowledge, which promotes critical thinking. I am merely trying to induce some sort of reflection which isn't purely based on somebody else's words, or God's words. Quoting the Bible or merely stating that everything is his will has no value in a religious discussion, which is where negation comes in the picture. If you can't prove Evolution wrong, yet you cannot prove God's existence, maybe you shouldn't *know* for a fact that God exists.

History shows that religion has done nothing constructive to the human mind. If we accept that God has predestined our destiny, and that anything we do won't affect the future, then we can just give up practising guitar, going to school, working, driving society to a maximum etc. What use is there if everything is already preconceived? This is purely my opinion, but I'd prefer having my say in my own future.

Let's say I have two choices: medicine studies or professional musicians. I pick the way of the doctor, and you will say "God intended for it to happen", yet if I become a professional musician you might say "Just as God foresaw". You call me cocky, but what do you call somebody who believes they are superior merely because they follow the way of a superior being?

Like I said, it wasn't directed to anyone in particular but just a general reminder as a sum of the entire discussion climate. Or maybe it was Gods way to make you think it was about you

What if Christians get to the point where they start killing people because they don't think the Earth is the centre of the solar system? What if Christians get to the point where they start burning people whom they suspect of being witches? What if there were a time known as the Dark Ages where technological and scientific advancement stagnated to a sub-zero level?

Sure this is fact
are you going to hold people acountable for there ancestors

For proof, consult history. There is no proof in the future. That's just speculation. You fire an argument about the future of Atheism, I retort with the past of Christianity... People ask what harm Christianity has ever done, I reply. No offence intended, this is history, not my own opinion.

if there is a God could he make a a universe with a predestined plan yet full of beings that have a free will


I agree with history that this happened
but will you hold the present accountable for the past

Then I guess people should stop mentioning Stalin...

no - without the past we loose ourselves
and that i have not been offended by anything said
and i like having questions that i need to think or rethink the way i believe
if i stop doing that
kill me

got to go to church ------Peace

Here's a Mind-Boggler. Going to Church on Independence Day, doesn't this mean you're still Dependent ? I mean yes yes British and French colonies etc. but still ^^

From a science point of view, recently discovered facts in the topic "intelligent design" (a theory about the human DNA) may prove Darwins theories false and actually divided scientists in two camps. Since the propellers in the human DNA is so extremely complicated, there is no chance that they could have evolved by coincidence - which in turn means that somebody designed the planet, aka. some kind of "God". I recently saw a tv-program bout this, and its a quite stunning piece of scientology. But the way from here to what we consider is God and what the bible says, is not the same subject imo. One must bear in mind that the bible is written by human beeings at different points in time, and that their belief (as well as possible misunderstandings) strongly affects the words in the bible. I think that people who reads the bible literally makes a big mistake, and that a possible God is something completely different than the one in the bible. Also we must bear in mind that the bible is "censored" by the Vatikan since the very beginning and texts that shall belong there from the start has been taken away.

//Staffay

EDIT: Heres a link to some info bout intelligent design: http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/...ci_vs_ev_26.htm

This post has been edited by Staffy: Jul 4 2010, 04:22 PM

Interesting I don't fully agree with your point on evolution though. Species evolve in two different ways.

1. Survival of the fittest
This doesn't necessarily mean the animal that eats the others, it means whatever animal is adapted to the surroundings in the most biologically viable fashion. Logically, if an animal doesn't survive the heat, it will die, and the animal who does will live on, procreating and propagating its genes into the future. The hedgehogs we see today are basically the grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-children of some other hedgehog which was very much similar.

HOWEVER, this would imply that we as humans have existed since the beginning of time, which is not the case.

2. Genetic mutation and biological memory
As the climate and environment changes, so does genetic information. If a Norwegian moved to Brazil in 1550 (let's ignore socio-cultural context) then in 500 years, his children would actually be darker skinned, not because of the Sun-tan, but because over a long period of time, the organism's DNA can change slightly, based on the surroundings. In other words, it's very probable that species can change merely as a way of keeping in balance with nature, because that is what evolution is: a regular change for balance.

What we see today on Earth is animals that have adapted over millions of years, and are perfectly shaped to live in symbiosis with other species. In a similar way, we are all 1 sperm cell out of millions, and yes, we survived the race up the fallopian tube because, as Darwin states, we are the fittest.

NOW the true issue that we should be discussing, as opposed to the existence of God:
Given that the world has changed drastically by human hands, including traffic, roads, pollution etc. Hedgehogs (I just love them, they are so cute ) that don't run fast enough, get hit by a car and die. In Norway, it is an unfortunate, but common sight. This means that in a few decades we're going to be left with Hedgehogs that run around at 30 km/h ! Oh my Darwin I can't wait !!!

This post has been edited by Alexiaden93: Jul 4 2010, 05:07 PM

Hmm, I can see Your point here - but what the scientists did was to emulate the evolution of just one cell with just one block of DNA and ran it through some monster NASA-computers. And what stands out was that the human DNA cannot be modelled out of just one cell, its simply just impossible - hence the theory "Intelligent Design". Other species, flowers etc. can be modelled however.

Now to the main question: Doesn't Your Norwegian Hedgehogs run faster than 30 kilometers/hour? Our Swedish one's have run for 50 km/hour the past 20 years.... On the other hand, Norway haven't joined the European Union yet either!

//Staffay

I'm 65yrs old and was brought up in an atmosphere of Roman Catholicism by Jesuit priests. I now believe the Bible was just Desert Scriblings and nothing else here's why;
When God by an "Act of Will" supposedly created the Universe he made all the rules and parameters so whatever happens he already knew it was going to happen, he set the foundations of the Universe and saw the whole thing so he knew exactly what you were going to do from the time you were born to the time you were going to die. He then CONDEMS YOU FOR DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO DO AND THEN HAS HIS SUPPOSED OWN SON TORTURED AND MURDERED TO MAKE UP FOR IT IN ORDER THAT HE CAN FORGIVE YOU.
Just a footnote here but christians consider Jesus (who was really god himself) SACRIFICED FOR OUR SINS. WHAT SACRIFICE IS THERE IN DYING THEN RISING FROM THE DEAD AND GETTING TO BE GOD AGAIN? Illogical.
Its the most illogical bizarre idea ever and to call him Holy, All Loving, forgiving and Moral is stupidity at it's height. Religious people tend to call this Fatherly Love.
The Old Testament is full of this kind of thing with god trying to convince us of his existance........ choosing the one method that makes it look as though he's not there deciding to whisper in primitive desert peoples ear whilst intentionally making himself OBSCURE in order that they could write a book that no one really understands requiring leaps of FAITH which are not supported by reason or logic and which only reward the gullible.
Tony

This post has been edited by tonyparnham: Jul 4 2010, 04:56 PM

I find it fascinating how being raised by extreme parents either leads you to become just like them, or the polar opposite. You are, in my opinion, logically 100% right in what you say.


Hahahahahaha And I thought Norwegians were just selfish nationalists and patriots... xD OF COURSE it's because of the Hedgehogs. Norway just can't compete

First of all it's God, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.

The Son (Jesus) lived on earth and lived the same life as us. It's the suffering, pain and death for our sins he went through for us which was the sacrifice. Not the dead body itself. Jesus is the bridge between us and God.

If anyone dies, our soul still stays and lives on for ever (as there is no such thing as time). Therefore you could says its logical Jesus would live on.

We as humans will all sin at least once in our life. If we are unable to fulfill the Law, then we will be punished by it. But, since God desires us to be saved, the Law must be satisfied.

Since we cannot keep the Law and it must be satisfied, then the only one capable of keeping the Law must keep the Law: God. Jesus is God in flesh. Jesus became sin for us and bore our sins in His body on the cross, thus fulfilling the Law. Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith since it was not by our keeping the Law, but by Jesus, God in flesh, who fulfilled the Law and died in our place.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 5 2010, 02:00 AM

I do not believe in God, it's too abstract thing for me. It's not that I don't want to, I simply cannot imagine what that is. God, or Supreme Being can be something non-human too, on higher ladder, but that doesn't mean it is God, it's just Supreme Being. God is something ultimate.. like Universe is ultimate. How can we understand Universe and God, we don't even know what is on a planet next to us..

As I read you, I can see that you are reasonably well read, in a scholarly sense. I can tell the difference. But others say things that make no sense at all, any serious scholar or researcher, one with a reputation in Academic circles, would just roll there eyes at.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Jul 5 2010, 06:06 AM

You have some real misconceptions about the church. Now this comes from a person who considers all religions of the book primitive superstition at root. But I have read a great deal of history, scholarly history, and you don't understand it at all, that is obvious to me.

The issue of Galileo was a complicated one. You simply have to understand that you had political institutions in those early days, the Church being one of them. Just as today, those who threaten the stability of the existing political institutions are dealt with, the same happened back then. I can't explain it all. I will just say that Galileo was not killed, he lived a life of luxury under house arrest, and could not further publish. He as a darling of the Church in earlier days, but he really just pushed too far, made too many enemies. Probably his biggest mistake was publishing in a language that the public could read, rather than in Latin. They did not like political instability back then any more than people do today. The position of the church was "sure, publish (in Latin), and say it is your theory, we will consider it, and if we are convinced, we will revisit our interpretation of scripture". But Galileo just decided to push his luck, and make fools out of them publicly. You did not do that in the middle ages in Europe with the ruling political institution, church or secular. The only difference is that had he made a fool of a prince, he probably would have lost his head.

You are showing your historical limitations on the burning of witches issue. How many were burned in Europe? 100,000? Nobody knows for sure. How many were burned by the Church (inquisition). ZERO! All were burned at the orders of secular courts If you were to be tried in those days, your only hope was that you saw the Inquisition, not the secular court. Then you had some hope. Yes if you were stubborn with the church, and did not suck up to them some (as people do today in court with a Judge) you might be turned over to the secular court. But it was always the civil authorities who would burn you. To understand old times, you have to put yourself in the context. Today people (even some teachers) transport modern values to those times, and judge them in that fashion. Silly, but it does not stop them.

Much of the misinformation about the history of the Catholic Church comes from biased propaganda from Northern Europe at the time, particularly the English. You want to hear about horrors, read about the English, and their treatment of the Irish. Hard to find a case of such horrible institutionalized genocide until the time of Hitler in man's history. The Church has many things in it's history not to be proud of. But then again, all in all, I would not call the Church the most horrendous of the political institutions of the middle ages, quite the opposite. And they are blamed for things in a way that is not always fair. It was pretty hard not to be corrupt in the 150 years that the Viking invastions had destabilized all political institutions. But they did reform after that. The Church did not sack Constantinople. That was against the explicit marching orders that the Pope had given them (and was in fact done because the Ruler of the East had broken a bargain with them had not paid them from services rendered.) Again, I am not a "believer" certainly not a Catholic, but I have read a great deal in my life. Just about all mainstream history (all on TV) that the general public sucks in it just nonsense, really. The things 95% of people believe concerning history are SO off the mark, not even close to a true understanding.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Jul 5 2010, 07:36 AM

Alexiaden93
"You sound like some über mutant Free-Mason ! biggrin.gif I believe it was the general view during the Renaissance that the only way to get closer to God was through personal endeavours in the field of knowledge, should it be music, mathematics, science, literature, art in general or what not. I respect your belief... smile.gif"


Actually that's very perceptive! The Gnostics fled under threat of extermination from the Pope and their teachings were eventually absorbed in to organizations such as the Free Masons among others. Good catch!

This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 5 2010, 08:25 AM

All the main religions catagorically say that if you don't believe in God or accept Jesus you get to be tortured forever/hell. Over 90% of people in the world are decent nice law abiding citizens who live a good life, just because a large amount of them don't believe in God because God has not given sufficient evidence, do they DESERVE to be tortured forever. Of course not. I have a daughter, if she fell out with me and never spoke to me again would I want to send her to the basement to lock her there forever just because she blanks me. Of course not I would always forgive her because I get my morals from me and I'm only human. Where does God get his morals from, in Christianity for example just because Eve disobeyed him God punished her and all generations thereafter. It's like my daughter taking my favourite chocolate out of the fridge disobeying my instructions so I spank her day after day, but not only that I also spank my two grandsons for what their mother did.
How silly is that. I then decide to have a son a couple of years later to put things right and have him killed so I can forgive my daughter. It's crazy.
I will not be influenced by these so called holy books written by men about a god no one has EVER seen. I get my morals from me I know whats right and whats wrong and I'm very comfortable with that.
Regards Tony