sadly, it's the "illegal immigrants" that pick the bulk of our produce in this country and that do the huge amounts of work that is so low paying/dangerous, that it wouldn't get done otherwise. Our economy is dependent, to some degree, on a constant influx of illegal immigration that the system is simply to slow to legally allow for. So yeah, I'd make a distinction But I'd say that despite that, we have no real choice other than to allow for a certain level of illegal immigration, just as we have been doing ever since we declared TEXAS part of our country and not theirs

So I'm saying loud lout that illegal immigrants, are in fact still "immigrants" and just like it says on our lovely Lady of Liberty, we should embrace them It doesn't say anything about "only those with proper documents/papers allowed"

We have plenty of criminals in this country, born and raised, sure some come here from other places too We can build all the fences/walls we like and it won't stop them coming or going. I see that as separate issue to be honest.

You aren't the first one to call me something akin to an Anarchist/promoting Anarchy/etc. either




I sure hope we have some options Including, democracy, before we just jump in to Civil War. Hopefully we a few political cycles left before just chuck it to the wind and arm themselves On the Far Right Rise side of things, it seems "THE DONALD" E.G. MR. Trump is now ahead of JEB BUSH in the Republican polls here in the states. It really speaks poorly for the electorate IMHO. The guy is a a clown shoe. Let's be honest. He's more like a far right talk radio host than an actual politician. But this is what's happening right now in the U.S. it seems. The right seems to be moving further and further from the center as it struggles to stay relevant/alive. It's the "perception of threat" that seems to be driving it.

True, the U.S. is experiencing a HUGE demographic shift and soon, things will look quite different. As soon as 2020, some data shows that Minority births will outpace non-minority births and that the U.S. as a country will be majority Hispanic sometime around 2040. If there was ever a time to embrace change and embrace Mexico, this would be it




This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 18 2015, 01:58 AM

First of all you have the decade wrong, in the early 40's nearly all of Europe was under occupation by Germany, other than Britain, the Swiss, Portugal, Spain, Sweden. Well Vichy France was not until 1943, and of course Italy, and the 4 affiliate states of Germany in eastern Europe, but for the most part it was German occupied. I guess Finland was not occupied as well, although part of their country had been taken from them. And to be complete, not all of European Russia was ever occupied.

If you are referring to what preceded that in the 1930's, the strongest support for Fascist movements in fact came from the poor/weak/disenfranchised. That was certainly where Nazi's had their greatest support during their rise to power. Yes they made their accommodations with the industrialists and the military after the death of Hindenburg, but in the rise of the Nazi's and Hitler to power their big voting base was of those on the lower economic tier of society. It was the same in Italy. Spain, I don't know for sure, but Spain was different, they had a civil war in the 1930's.




This post has been edited by fkalich: Jul 18 2015, 04:29 AM

You got that wrong. that statistic refers to what are called minorities, including Hispanics, Blacks, Asians. American Indians, etc. Not just Hispanics.

Hispanics fit in quickly in the US. Hell my father's second wife was Hispanic, two of my nieces are married to Hispanics. Intermarriage is common. And you do need a replacement population. A lot of countries in Europe, and China are going to be hard pressed in the future as too small a number of the working population has to try and support a large number of retired.

FKALICH you seem to have missed the sarcasm in my post Conflating the occupation of Europe with the stirrings of right wing parties is just a bit of stretch, thus the sarcasm.

But yes, of course, the 30s were the decade of the collapse of Germany's "experiment" in democracy (e.g. the Wiemar Republic) following the global economic dip that had a swift start on Wall Street here in the states (notice the sarcasm again?)

Todd



Sorry for misquoting the study Yes, "Minorities" not just Hispanics are on course to become the new "Majority" with Hispanics and Asians making up the largest groups. My point simply being that demography in our country is changing quickly and the race to the right is response to the threat of change. It's one we have seen historically in many cultures and we are seeing it again.



BINGO On the working population comment One of the greatest benefits of Immigration (legal and illegal) is that it brings a "Dyamism" to an economy that doesn't happen otherwise. You need people to want to join a given economy to make it work long term. Otherwise, you get what we see starting to happen in Japan where one worker has to support several people that are retired. We have some of that in our own future because of the BABY BOOMERS. However, we still have a somewhat attractive country and people still want to come here thankfully. In the long run it's the only thing that will keep the boomer from sinking the ship


As you may have noticed from my staunch defense of Immigrants and immigration in general, I personally support the idea that people should be allowed and even encouraged to come to the states and get jobs, start families and pitch in However, as you may have noticed by the posts following mine, our country is VASTLY divided on this issue.

My larger point being that the demography is changing. Minority is a word that will have far less meaning in the coming decades as the number continue to shift. I'm all for embracing the change and embracing the people that want to come here. People like your relatives from the sound it. But then again, people like my relatives as well as we are all immigrants here, unless you live on a "Reservation".

This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 18 2015, 05:41 AM

You must be referring to the tired old myth that illegal immigrants do the jobs that Americans don't want to do. According to US census numbers, in agriculture the percentage of the work done by immigrants, legal and illegal is only slightly better than 50%. Maybe that meets your definition of the" bulk."

Also I am still not sure if you make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration. In your first paragraph you say that you do , but then you seem to contradict yourself in the next paragraph.

You also seem to think anything not said on the Statue of Liberty is to be included. It should also be noted that hiring folks in the country illegally and that have not been screened is in fact against the law.

If the gov can pick and choose which laws it will recognize , then by example and precedence set, the people can do the same , right?

And then I read this from you. " But then again, people like my relatives as well as we are all immigrants here, unless you live on a "Reservation." Since I was born in this country as were my parents , and their parents. I am a native born American my friend, and in no way shape or form an "immigrant." Descendant from immigrants yes, but an immigrant myself? Not by any stretch. Where do you come up with this stuff?

Yes If we cut 50% of our work force (illegal immigrants) from picking produce, we would have about 50% LESS PRODUCE and simple supply and demand would dictate that the PRICE OF PRODUCE WOULD DOUBLE.

This would have knock on effects that would ripple through the entire economy. Every restaurant, grocery, etc. would be impacted. It would be effectively a brand new "tax" on produce. So yeah, not practical to pull those folks out. Not a myth, just an uncomfortable fact.

I notice you mention I"m contradicting myself but I don't see where? Then you say something about "picking and choosing" the laws we will enforce. That much is very true, the Govt always has to make the choice on which laws it will enforce. It always has, it always will. We could stop all illegal immigration. We won't. We need them too badly for the reasons mentioned in addition to the crucial work they do in construction and other industries. So expect lots of "talking points" from politicians. But they know it's just hot air to pander to their base.

We are "all immigrants" is a term I"m using to illustrate that we are in fact not native to this country at all. We were born here, like the children of many illegal aliens who are now (by that same token) full AMERICANS with the same rights we have. However.

We are an "immigrant culture". This was not our land. We showed up and took it over. So we are the sons and daughters of immigrants. We are just Third/Fourth/Fifth generation immigrants. I come up with this stuff just by opening my mind I'm not sure how many generations back my immigrant roots go, but my family name was declared criminal so all Simpsons left their homeland in the gap between England and Scottland where the "reavers" lived. So yeah.

We are all immigrants. Just a matter of how many generations. Fourth gen/fifth gen/etc. Even you, even your parents, and your kids

P.P.S. I have had some questions about my semi strange personal beliefs so I wanted to provide a link about the broad strokes. I"m an "Anti Pauline" Essene of the Gnostic tradition. Many of who'm are vegetarian, but not me Here is a link to a site that explains things.

http://www.essene.org/Yahowshua_or_Paul.htm



This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 22 2015, 02:59 AM

Pure speculation that I disagree with. First of all that 50% is not comprised of only illegals. It is comprised of both legal and illegal immigrants and I believe the void created by removing the illegals could immediately be filled by those that come here legally on work visas.
If we have to increase the number of work visas issued then so be it. The point being that anyone coming here to become a citizen or just to work must be properly screened. Filling positions with illegals is not fair to those who come here legally to work.

You seem to contradict yourself by saying this
"So I'm saying loud lout that illegal immigrants, are in fact still "immigrants."
To me this may infer that your position is that there is no difference, hence the uncertainty.

As far as picking and choosing laws to recognize. Just because that has been happening for years doesn't make it right. Our leaders take an oath to uphold ALL the laws, not just the ones they agree with.

By your logic, we are all immigrants in this country because we are not indigenous if I understand you correctly. Then by that logic most of the human race would be labeled as immigrants wouldn't they, since you would be hard pressed to find a piece of land on the planet that wasn't taken over or moved onto from someone from somewhere else at some point. Didn't the American Indians come here from somewhere else as well such as across the Bering Straight from Asia and/or elsewhere? Wouldn't that make them immigrants as well? Furthermore, aren't we all out of Africa to begin with? And beyond that, wasn't the entirety of land on the planet at one time just one massive continent? Like I said before , we may be descendants of immigrants but if you were born in the country you live in and that your parents are citizens of, you are NOT an immigrant. Just to make it clear, I am in no way offended at being called an immigrant and I have absolutely nothing against immigrants. I am simply pointing out that it is incorrect to label someone living in the nation they were born and that their parents are citizens of as an immigrant.

Who knows. Maybe someday there will be no such thing as nations and borders and maybe this would be a good thing and maybe not, but until then we do have these things and each nation has it's laws (many of which are far more strict than our own) which should either be followed or changed but not ignored.

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Jul 22 2015, 07:21 PM

On to the real news . Blake Shelton and Miranda Lambert are getting a divorce

come on Todd , to speculate that The American Economy would fall apart because people have less Salad

Sadly we just couldn't make up the difference with "legal" immigrants. Just can't. Here is a handy reference.
http://www.voanews.com/content/us-farmers-...644/162082.html

If you can find any sources other than fox, that say we could make up the gap, i'd love to see them I'd say that's pretty well open and shut. Up next!

As far as the "difference". I'm saying, again, that there really isn't one. Immigrants, are immigrants. Just like our forefathers were when they came here and put all the native people in "Reservations".

As for laws, yup, they take oaths to uphold them. Yet, they don't and never have. They will always focus on the ones that help them out politically. Always have, always will

I like your idea that we are ALL in fact Immigrants of one kind or another ever since PANGEA (The original land mass) broke up. But you could say certain folks are indigenous after said breakup I agree also that flags/borders/etc. Is something that is losing it's meaning more and more. Tribalism is an idea that I think has had it's day. I think it's possible to be proud of ones heritage, no matter what it is, or entails, and still not be tribalistic.

I vote that we spend a few hundred billion less on Jets/Tanks that are useless in our current wars, and a few hundred billion more on taking care of actual people. Funding a bit of life rather than spending half our GDP on Death is something I"d vote for





HEre is a very well sourced and well documented wikipedia entry (including Congressional sources/census data) that breaks down the details and benefits of Illegal migration. It's honestly a red herring. It helps us as a country FAR more than it hurts us. Politicians use it to stoke the fires of isolationism and fear and it's just pure hogwash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impa...e_United_States

Here is a great article from TIME on why undocumented workers are "Good for Business". In fact, my own State could lose $1billion annually without enough migrant workers.
http://business.time.com/2012/06/14/the-fi...migration-laws/



This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 24 2015, 07:42 AM

Conservative California legislators always vote against any type of immigration reform. That's pretty elucidating. Change, any type, is bad for business ... from both ends.

Actually, no 'reform' ever makes it to the floor or a ballot.

Open and shut? Not even close. I think you know as well as I do that there are plenty of sources (other than Fox) that show the gap could be made up immediately. There are millions of workers that could come here to work legally and I don't see why the ones here illegally couldn't have gone through the process of becoming a legal migrant worker as well. Like I said before, if we need to issue more work visas then so be it. Don't you think that a majority of those that come to work here illegally could have been screened and allowed to work here legally?

Yes, The laws are ignored. This mess was created by the governments lack of enforcement. It allows a large number of criminals, many of which are violent, to slip through the cracks and puts the general public at risk especially in states on our southern border and it doesn't have to be that way.

You like the idea of all people being immigrants because it is yours , not mine. I was simply following your logic. To me it is just ridiculous. Does it make you feel better about yourself because you have some kind of guilt about things that happened generations before you were born? If so, then forgive me if I don't share that guilt since I had absolutely nothing to do with it and there is nothing that I can do about it now. We look at history and recognize the mistakes made in the past and move on. If you want to consider yourself an immigrant then that's fine , but please speak for yourself.

Funding death? You mean national security? The number one priority role of gov? Oh and BTW, we spend more on entitlements than national security and defense today. But hey we don't need a defense budget right? Nobody wants to harm us at all , heck the whole world just loves us right?
Jets and tanks are useless? Really? Who knew? I doubt the folks on the business end of jets and tanks think they are useless.

I believe like most folks do that immigration laws need to be reformed but until that reform makes the best possible effort to properly screen immigrants then it is not reform at all. It is just business as usual. The refusal to address this part of the issue is a big part of the reason why there hasn't been any meaningful reform proposed, much less voted on. And there has been reform in the past but the parts of that reform that would properly screen migrant workers and provisions to stop businesses from hiring illegal migrant workers have been ignored. So why should we trust the gov to enact new reform when they simply won't recognize parts of the reform they have already enacted?

The source does not matter, you will cry foul.
Look at your reality, Conservatives sources are always evil while yours are always right on the money.I do have a problem with conservatives and their shortfalls why don't you ever think the other side ever has any.
As for this hefty "tax" and that it would cause your state 1 billion . you didn't think that with this Obama tax. oh , i mean Obama care. Didn't your cost go up even though obama said they would go down, did you loose your doctor or are you one of the lucky ones that didn't, even though Obama said no one would loose their doctor and had to admit he was wrong ( if he could be wrong about such a small detail , What about the big ones ?). According to the CBO it costs 950 billion dollars annually and supposedly saved 140 billion bringing the grand total 800 billion yearly , divided by fifty states equals 1.6 billion Obamacare is costing your state (every year). Now the CBO ,by law , has to use the figures given it by the administration, Thats right they were forced to use data for obama care given by Obama (nothing could go wrong there). How long have you been interested in politics , Long enough to know that the us government ALWAYS EXTREMELY underestimates costs , and is inefficient in everything it does. So if obamatax ain't hurting your state (in this great roaring economy ) The 1 billion in reference to farming won't, and you need a much stronger argument.

Minimum wage increases will hurt much more. We can't use resources any more , cause it is a he said she said argument, but , we can use common sense . On the surface raising it sounds loving and empathetic. In realty the Free market works to fast for the government to act.
Lets say you raise fast food workers from 8 an hour to eleven ,
what will the trained employee say who makes eleven. You can not deny he will require the same wage increase to fourteen . Now the shift manager at fourteen says you need to pay me more than the guy at the register, so now he gets 17 an hour. Now the assistant manger who make 17 needs to go to 20, and the manager who gets 20 now wants 23 an hour( If you don't see this coming you are fooling yourself), within a company with five employees, that companies payroll just increased 30,00 a year and ask anyone who owns a small business with employees ( not the same as hiring sub contract work )you will easily add at least half of what your company payroll is to Taxes, fees and such. Do you really think a business can take a 45,00 hit. NO. They will have to raise their price. The girl working at the mall in the clothing store, she needs her raise or she is going to work fast food - so up goes clorthing to cover all the raises , The construction worker ( of which my business is). I have guys showing up wanting 10 an hour . fresh out of high school , that don't now how to read a tape measure, and now they will want 13 an hour to start because it is harder work .
Please tell me you are smart enough to see this cause and effect of this .
This is why we have this debate every couple of years . The minimum wage increases , the free market compensates to fast for the government to handle, so everybody cries for minimum wage to increase.
Search its history yourself .The only thing it ever hurts are the poor and elderly( the exact ones the government says it is trying to help), because now , those one a fixed income have less buying power, their dollar buys less. The poor will benefit for a while , untill prices rise and then we will be back in this boat.
To be honest , This will happen , just watch its cause and effect
On of the truest statements I have ever heard " Within the free market their are winners and loser but when the government tries to decide who wins and loses , we all lose ". Only time will tell .Please learn from it.

How did we get to Min Wage talk? Not that it's not a fun issue Suffice to say, my views on things tend to run towards Anarchy and Nihilism Seriously though. Thanks for the thread guys, it's always fun to go back and forth. We could keep this up forever though and it wouldn't make anyone any better at their instrument so for now I'll stick a fork in it. We can always pick a new topic for next time. How about Donald Trump for Pres!! (That's sarcasm of course) Thanks much!


Todd

CA has one of the highest minimum wages at $9.00 an hour ($10.00 next Jan 1st) and one of the consistently highest GSP (gross state product) indexes.

*Though I had to change doctors, Obama Care lowered my family's medical insurance costs by 30%.
Co-pays higher/deductible lower (which worked out great because because my kid needed a tonsillectomy).

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jul 26 2015, 11:58 AM

Not arguing one way or another about min wage but it doesn't appear that min wage is much of a factor when looking at GDP by state. The leading factor to me looks like it is industry. For example in 2010 Alaska's GDP was number 1 per capita at 49% above the national avg with the mining industry contributing 25% to the Alaska economy. The top five states that year per capita were Alaska, Delaware, Wyoming, Connecticut and New York.

Isn't California's leading industry Agriculture, which is exempt from min wage requirements?

I am no expert at all when it comes to this stuff but it seems to me that an increase in min wage has little impact on major industry since most of those jobs pay quite a bit more than min wage to begin with. It is the small businesses that are the ones that struggle.
That being said, it also seems to me that min wage increases lag behind cost of living increases. There is a rise in the min wage coming here too but I don't think it will have much of a negative impact because most jobs, even in fast food pay more than min wage anyway to start with.

And as far as the ACA. Here is an article from Forbes in 2013 speaking of the increasing costs of health insurance. Here in Alaska , a leading insurer has raised premiums by 35% or more for two years in a row (This year and last year). I think maybe you are one of the lucky ones if you are paying less and I would be surprised if you are still saving money in the next few years.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/201...ms-3000-higher/

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Jul 26 2015, 09:40 PM

Ag workers 'legally' make the CA minimum - $9.00. *I'm sure the illegal and non-unionized workers make less.
Ag, government, health care and tech all run neck and neck as far as largest employers and GSP is concerned.

If my insurance premiums go up (w/in reason) I can deal with that, especially since there's no $$ cap, preventive is free and the doc networks are fairly large. CA was way ahead of the game as Obama Care was becoming a reality.

Anyway, this is just 'my' personal experience and observations as a native Californian.

The press is all about negativity on both sides ... because it sells.
Individuals love to complain about shit they know nothing about or doesn't affect them and politicians make a career of scaring the cap out of you.

My point being ... It's not so bad here.
We do need some water though.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jul 27 2015, 04:23 PM