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GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ Need Help From Luciana :p
Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jul 17 2007, 03:24 PM
Luciana I would like to ask you something..
I consider my voice interesting, I have kinda good range (about two octaves) and I can also sing any note, just by listening the pitch... it feels natural for me (maybe, its because I am singing for about 10 years in a choir:P )
But the problem is, that when I scream (be it low pitch or mid pitch) I have feeling, like my voice is... 5 years younger than me.. When I am singing normally, its normal "manly" voice, but since I am singing metal, i need to add some crunch to my voice. Also, I have noticed, that when singing live, it sounds much better, than when recorded.. Dunno maybe its my inner complex or bad mixing of my voice?.. 
So to sum it up:
1) Will my voice, when screaming, change as I'll get older (my normal voice melody/color/basic range is pretty much set IMO..)? 
2) Is it normal, that singer just hates his voice? 
3) Can you give some lessons (or just advices) how to add "distortion effect" to voice properly? (maybe, I just don't know, how to scream 
)
Btw. I am 16 yrs old (I'll be 17 in 3 days )
Phoenix
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 17 2007, 03:42 PM
This is fairly normal, for 2 reasons:
1. You hear yourself differently when you are singing- you get sound through your bones and a different tonal balance etc
2. Singing live is of the moment, listening to a recording is forever - you will hear every little imperfection which you would just miss when hearing yourself sing live. In fact I have this exact same problem on guitar. You jam , it sounds great. You play back the recording and you hear a lot of stuff you missed. For this reason, recording is about 20 times harder than most people would think!
Posted by: Luciana Jul 17 2007, 04:27 PM
Luciana I would like to ask you something..I consider my voice interesting, I have kinda good range (about two octaves) and I can also sing any note, just by listening the pitch... it feels natural for me (maybe, its because I am singing for about 10 years in a choir:P )
But the problem is, that when I scream (be it low pitch or mid pitch) I have feeling, like my voice is... 5 years younger than me.. When I am singing normally, its normal "manly" voice, but since I am singing metal, i need to add some crunch to my voice. Also, I have noticed, that when singing live, it sounds much better, than when recorded.. Dunno maybe its my inner complex or bad mixing of my voice?..
So to sum it up:
1) Will my voice, when screaming, change as I'll get older (my normal voice melody/color/basic range is pretty much set IMO..)?
2) Is it normal, that singer just hates his voice?
3) Can you give some lessons (or just advices) how to add "distortion effect" to voice properly? (maybe, I just don't know, how to scream
)Btw. I am 16 yrs old (I'll be 17 in 3 days
)Phoenix
Phoenix: *When you hate you voice is because you are insecure with it.. is normal..just take your time...*
it's very important to make a difference between singing in choir and singing metal...
if you have been singing in a choir about 10 years, your range is poor for me...I think that you should have three octaves at least.
and the breaks of your range, when you are in choir, is different.... Are you using falsetto when you scream?? because the screams of popular music, like metal are very different. You don't have to use the falsetto. Are you using it?
Posted by: Robin Jul 17 2007, 04:35 PM
I hate hearnig myself more than anything else. Also, my cousin is an amazing singer and everyone says she is, but still she isnt really happy with her voice. I even hate hearing myself talk, uuuugh.
Posted by: Owen Jul 17 2007, 04:55 PM
Luciana - What is the proper technique for a metal scream, what does it involve?
Because all I can figure at the moment is that if you shout, you build ulcers on your vocal chords = not good and if you use a raspy tone from the throught then your over vibrating the larynx which is also bad.
So how do you go about doing that harsh technique properly?
Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jul 17 2007, 05:00 PM
2 Luciana: To be honest, I dont like that kind of metal, where falesto is used:) So no, I do not use it:)
And my range is from d to C2 so its 3 actually otaves without one tone - btw. these are in czech notation - we have H instead of B etc.... (to show it on scale, my range is like d,e,f,g,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A2,B2,C2).
Anyway, I was singing basso everytime, so noone forced my to sing high tones.. maybe that is the reason.. also, choir on elementary school was like... very unproffesilonal:)
Hope, that this all makes sense..
2 Andrew: Thanks.. I think, you tottally nailed it :-D And also, the more I hear myself, the more fails I see.. First time, when I heard our record I was like "WoW.. we rock!", during tenth play.. I just had to stop the record, because I felt totally embarased:-D
2 Robin: I feel the same! I even hate myself recorded when taliking.. :-D
Btw. Luciana what you mean by brakes of range? its the distance between normal and falsetto range?
Posted by: Kaneda Jul 17 2007, 05:32 PM
I'd say - and Luciana may correct me - that you don't want to do commonplace screaming - as in overloading your vocal chords by straining your throat and forcing a sound out. That's sure to damage your voice rather quickly.
You'd probably rather want to combine use of the diaphragm ("stomach") - which you surely already know from choir practice (and which you hopefully use when singing outside choir too 
) - with glottal fry. The sound of glottal fry is in the yawn you make when your annoying brother/sister wakes you up at 5 in the morning, and you really don't want to get out of bed - the sound of your voice breaking up, because you actually give it too little air to hit a precise note at the volume you want. You also hear it when you try to go lower than your lowest note. The vocal bands alternately let air through and then close at irregular intervals, which causes your voice to "turn off" in the middle of the note - making it sound raspy.
It's easier to do at first with the lowest notes in your main register, and at as low volume as possible. Actually, to find it, sing a deep "aaaaah" at as low volume as you can. When you've trained applying it to the low notes, you can move it all over the register. Good for vocal stylings in the mid register, for growls at the low register, for screams in the high (non-falsetto, non-flageolet) register.
One note of caution: You do not want to practice this exclusively, or you'll find it increasingly difficult to sing without it, which means sacrificing your clear tone at all times
Another technique is using the smaller vocal cords, but that's so much harder to explain, that I won't try - besides, wouldn't recommend doing it (and feeling safe doing it) from an explanation on the internet
Posted by: Luciana Jul 17 2007, 05:37 PM
And my range is from d to C2 so its 3 actually otaves without one tone
- btw. these are in czech notation - we have H instead of B etc.... (to show it on scale, my range is like d,e,f,g,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A2,B2,C2).Anyway, I was singing basso everytime, so noone forced my to sing high tones.. maybe that is the reason.. also, choir on elementary school was like... very unproffesilonal:)
Hope, that this all makes sense..
Btw. Luciana what you mean by brakes of range? its the distance between normal and falsetto range?
2 Jakub Luptovec: The break is just the point when you voice left the chest voice and begin to use falsetto...
when you study in choir, like in lyric singing the break is before than in popular singing...
I have students that sing melodic songs and i can feel there's no weight in his voices. They sing beautiful, but the words doesn't say anything, so i try to explain them that in popular singing it's important to use more air.......... without foce your vocal cords.....Increasing the air for a better vibrating of your vocal cords. be careful!!! if you lose the pich is for increase to much air.... control it.... this can be the new way to sing for you... do not sing without weight, almost in middle piches...
Maybe you are afraid when you scream, so you lose air when you have to use it.-
There has to be a balance, a kind of equilibrium-
Did you study how to breathe?
btw:
three octaves!! great!
Posted by: Owen Jul 17 2007, 05:43 PM
You'd probably rather want to combine use of the diaphragm ("stomach") - which you surely already know from choir practice (and which you hopefully use when singing outside choir too
) - with glottal fry. The sound of glottal fry is in the yawn you make when your annoying brother/sister wakes you up at 5 in the morning, and you really don't want to get out of bed - the sound of your voice breaking up, because you actually give it too little air to hit a precise note at the volume you want. You also hear it when you try to go lower than your lowest note. The vocal bands alternately let air through and then close at irregular intervals, which causes your voice to "turn off" in the middle of the note - making it sound raspy. It's easier to do at first with the lowest notes in your main register, and at as low volume as possible. Actually, to find it, sing a deep "aaaaah" at as low volume as you can. When you've trained applying it to the low notes, you can move it all over the register. Good for vocal stylings in the mid register, for growls at the low register, for screams in the high (non-falsetto, non-flageolet) register.
One note of caution: You do not want to practice this exclusively, or you'll find it increasingly difficult to sing without it, which means sacrificing your clear tone at all times
Another technique is using the smaller vocal cords, but that's so much harder to explain, that I won't try - besides, wouldn't recommend doing it (and feeling safe doing it) from an explanation on the internet
Thanks Kaneda, as comprehensive as ever.
Much appreciated.
Posted by: Kaneda Jul 17 2007, 06:00 PM
Much appreciated.You're welcome, as ever
Not even remotely a fan of Linkin Park, but Chester Bennington is always a good example of well developed glottal fry. That's how you scream for 15 seconds without losing your breath or ruining your voice for days
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HuBAjK0ul0
(The clean high notes aren't what we're talking about - you'll know when you hear it - around 2:00 and on)
Posted by: Luciana Jul 17 2007, 06:07 PM
I have to go away now, but please leave all your doubts here and I am going to be answering one to one...
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jul 17 2007, 08:09 PM
This might be off topic - but when I understood how to use the stomach when singing/screaming, it was like a whole new world opened up... All of of sudden it was rock and not just false! 
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 17 2007, 08:12 PM
Yes, breathing is key, and its one thing that beginners rearely figure out for themselves - I would expext Luciana to cover this soon as a beginners technique
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jul 17 2007, 08:14 PM
Are you human?
That topic is coming up tomorrow!
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 17 2007, 08:18 PM
That topic is coming up tomorrow!
I just know my stuff Kris - didn't know I was a singer as well did you??? Actually I'm not, but I did get lessons for 6 months a couple of years ago so I know some of the basics
Posted by: Bjoerne Jul 17 2007, 08:24 PM
That topic is coming up tomorrow!
I'm better of to bed then so i can learn how to sing when i wake up ^^
Posted by: Pantalaimon Jul 17 2007, 08:32 PM
Andrew is right - Breathing is key.
It would be wise to train your ear so that you know THE CORRECT TIMES TO BREATHE when singing. It's actually quite a bit harder than one might think, but once you get the hang of it, it's like second nature. Usually the goal is to take breaths at the end of thoughts (phrases or sentences or lines in the poem/lyrics). It is also smart to know where you are going with the song so that you can breathe in preparation for difficult notes or runs in advance.
I could write pages on breathing, but I'll keep it to that for now.
Posted by: Kaneda Jul 17 2007, 09:57 PM
Indeed - I was a bit surprised first off, that we skipped straight to actual singing, but on the other hand, most don't learn to hold the guitar in a relaxed way the first day - we want to get down to making some "noise" as quickly as possible
I'd say that the most important thing to get down at the beginning is the use of the "stomach" as Kris mentioned. You can't expect to have a consistent and flexible voice until you use the muscles right.
Basically, you'll want the stomach to expand freely when you take in air (that would actually be the diaphragm moving down, right under the lungs, pressing other organs aside). Allowing the stomach to expand stretches the diaphragm as much as possible, which allows it to very precisely control the stream of air when you breathe out/sing. If your shoulders move up in order to breathe in quickly, that's one sign that you're doing it wrong. The less the diaphragm is stretched, the less you'll have control over the air stream, causing inconsistent volume, bad intonation, "running out of air" (which really means "losing control over the air that's left") etc.
One way to practice that I remember, is to lie down on a bed and focus on your breathing there, since people mostly breathe right when they're lying down. Maybe place your hands flat on the stomach, to focus on its movement.
Posted by: Luciana Jul 18 2007, 12:57 AM
Be patients guys!!!
the answer will be tomorrow!
in the new lesson!
Posted by: Travelin' Man Jul 18 2007, 04:11 PM
Andrew IS right...breathing is key....that constant in and out...once that pattern stops, your life is over
Posted by: sillyman Jul 18 2007, 04:27 PM
if ur serious about metal screamin and singin den u should get da zen guide of screamin (check out the website http://www.melissacross.com/home.php? ).
it shows all the forms of screamin also shows u how to put distortion on ur voice). bt in da meanwhile if u want a fry scream da easiest way is to close ur mouth and hum and squeak at the same time , once u gt dat den u open ur mouth and u should hav a basic fry scream. hope dat helps
Posted by: Luciana Jul 18 2007, 05:39 PM
it shows all the forms of screamin also shows u how to put distortion on ur voice). bt in da meanwhile if u want a fry scream da easiest way is to close ur mouth and hum and squeak at the same time , once u gt dat den u open ur mouth and u should hav a basic fry scream. hope dat helps
I was checking that page, because I didn't know Melissa Cross... soud good,, I will checking a litlle more...
Posted by: Kaneda Jul 18 2007, 06:05 PM
it shows all the forms of screamin also shows u how to put distortion on ur voice). bt in da meanwhile if u want a fry scream da easiest way is to close ur mouth and hum and squeak at the same time , once u gt dat den u open ur mouth and u should hav a basic fry scream. hope dat helps
sillyman! Secret! You told a secret! You... you... Why, I ought to...
Nah, seriously... Melissa Cross' (first) Zen of Screaming DVD is pretty good.
Haven't looked at the second one. I don't use screaming often, checked the first DVD out of curiosity. The only thing that bothers me is that two hours is really not enough in the way that Melissa presents it. She's a good teacher, that's for sure, but I'm sure she's better in person, and somehow, that DVD seemed more like a teaser to take real lessons from her. Some of the lessons just lack detail (like the amount of precision and detail Luciana can put up in a single lesson on the web
). Thankfully, when I needed it, there were more "classic" vocal trainers around here, who were open enough to (and experienced enough in) "modern aesthetics" that they helped me on the right path - even if I'll never need to growl or scream for an entire concert
, the techniques are helpful for texture and expression too.In any event, Melissa's DVD is a very good start, but I wouldn't feel really ready or comfortable enough to be a death metal lead singer after following it
As for breathing (which this topic also turned into being about), Luciana has that essential part perfectly covered in the latest singing lesson.
Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jul 18 2007, 06:16 PM
Hmm.. i got this DVD too.. but the problem is, that the only thing, that she teaches you completely on that DVD is how to warm up.. which I know how to do already.. I really do not get how i should scream "from heart" and make "distortion" in nose.. she had just shown what does it look like, but no how to...
Posted by: sillyman Jul 18 2007, 06:23 PM
alot of it is just tools for u to discover hw best to scream by yourself bt (im about to giv another secret away kaneda ) there is a second 1 that deals exclusively with screamin and fits all the techniques from the first lesson together
Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jul 18 2007, 06:27 PM
Yeah, I heard about ZoS2 too.. but I¨ll have to wait for a while before getting it.. Btw. throw these secrets here;) I would appreciate:)
Posted by: sillyman Jul 18 2007, 06:31 PM
no problem. feel free to ask if u need advice im nt sur hw gud my advice is bt ill try. gud luck with the screamin
Posted by: Kaneda Jul 18 2007, 06:52 PM
Yeah, that was my problem with it too. The teaser material
And I think that's problematic, because making people find their own way in that regard can be as harmful to their voice as not teaching them anything at all
It's a starting point, but I'm not sure I'd like to continue by myself from it. ) there is a second 1 that deals exclusively with screamin and fits all the techniques from the first lesson togetherI'll check out the second DVD at some point. Just to see if it's good, because I feel I have enough techniques for what I'll need.
It would just be nice to see someone who could teach it on a "broadcast" basis (because knowing is not the same as teaching - I can barely explain music theory, much less practice
), rather than have to tell people to look out for expensive real life face to face instructors, or give them half-brewed advice (as I did above) which is hard to work from without further pointers and error correction...
Posted by: Owen Jul 18 2007, 07:15 PM
Same problem here, I was getting bored to listening as to how she was such "a great teacher".
I saw the trailer for the second, it doesn't look much better and I agree that it should be covered by someone on a much broader basis.
Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jul 18 2007, 07:33 PM
I saw the trailer for the second, it doesn't look much better and I agree that it should be covered by someone on a much broader basis.
Yeah.. totally:-D It was like half of the "document", when those singers were saying, how much they had improved.. buuuut... I HADN'T IMPROVED FFS
Btw. the second, from what I saw and heard, should be more to point.. rawr.. i want to learn vocal fry so much.. the problem is, that I dont know, how to translate it into czech (we have some stupid terms for everything..) so no way to find teacher for this, when I cant tell him, what I want to learn.. also, all teachers, that I met till today were like "No, you CANT sing like that, it will damage your throat, and screaming is bad and metal singing is bad, if you'll do it, you'll hurt your vocal chords blah blah blah.. just sing pop".
To be honest, i dont give a *ehm*.. I just want to scream like Anselmo, and I'll be satisfied
PS: Try to imagine, that in 50% of lessons here on GMC will Kris and Pavel be saying, how much they had improved and how cool they are in guitarplaying
Posted by: Kaneda Jul 18 2007, 07:48 PM
Btw. the second, from what I saw and heard, should be more to point.. rawr.. i want to learn vocal fry so much.. the problem is, that I dont know, how to translate it into czech (we have some stupid terms for everything..) so no way to find teacher for this, when I cant tell him, what I want to learn..
If you find a really open teacher, you might be able to explain it (might take some time, though) from the yawning-like, fractured voice, and say you want to develop that for singing - and screaming
If they're open enough, they'll realize that you're not going to be operatic singer material anyway, and all you're doing is trying to protect your voice To be honest, i dont give a *ehm*.. I just want to scream like Anselmo, and I'll be satisfied
If you're not heading for the opera or other classical singing, as long as you do this stuff right, you won't hurt your vocal chords more than you hurt your hand by playing guitar. All body parts are stressed to some extent when you exercise them in different ways. It's not like you'll lose the ability to sing clean (although take note of what I wrote earlier, about not practicing it exclusively), you just won't have the perfectly cultivated, protected voice of classical solo singing
I know heavy growlers who sing in choir still.
Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jul 18 2007, 07:58 PM
Yeah, I've tried to find open teacher.. but the problem is, that I have only found teachers from local musical academy, and they are only open to classical opera singing.. but ill keep on trying:)
Anyway.. milion thanks for advices:)
Btw. is this thread going any further?
Posted by: Luciana Jul 18 2007, 08:04 PM
Jakub;
I uderstand you perfectly because it's happend to me too...
when I was a singing student all my teachers told me that i Can't scream because i will damage my vocal chords... and they told me that if i want to scream i must do it with lyrics technique.... WHAT!!! That`s no rock!! i'm not a ballads singer !!,,, i want to scream (not metal) but scream like in rock songs!, all my favorite singers scream and they don't do heavy metal. screams are very important for a lot of styles...
and I decided to study other techniques, and try to apply it in my band and in my songs,. And it's work... so....
I can help you... just let me try to do a lesson about screaming...I'm working on it
ok...?
Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jul 18 2007, 08:45 PM
Oh.. thanks:) And yeah.. i understand what you mean.. Normal singing is great most of times.. but in some songs and especially in some kinds of music.. screamings suits much better and its much more energic in my opinion:)
I am really looking forward to your lessons, especially that one about screming
Posted by: Owen Jul 18 2007, 09:15 PM
ok...?
*Spontaneous Worship*
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Sep 24 2007, 03:29 AM
You'd probably rather want to combine use of the diaphragm ("stomach") - which you surely already know from choir practice (and which you hopefully use when singing outside choir too
) - with glottal fry. The sound of glottal fry is in the yawn you make when your annoying brother/sister wakes you up at 5 in the morning, and you really don't want to get out of bed - the sound of your voice breaking up, because you actually give it too little air to hit a precise note at the volume you want. You also hear it when you try to go lower than your lowest note. The vocal bands alternately let air through and then close at irregular intervals, which causes your voice to "turn off" in the middle of the note - making it sound raspy. It's easier to do at first with the lowest notes in your main register, and at as low volume as possible. Actually, to find it, sing a deep "aaaaah" at as low volume as you can. When you've trained applying it to the low notes, you can move it all over the register. Good for vocal stylings in the mid register, for growls at the low register, for screams in the high (non-falsetto, non-flageolet) register.
One note of caution: You do not want to practice this exclusively, or you'll find it increasingly difficult to sing without it, which means sacrificing your clear tone at all times
Another technique is using the smaller vocal cords, but that's so much harder to explain, that I won't try - besides, wouldn't recommend doing it (and feeling safe doing it) from an explanation on the internet
Awesome Kaneda!
Oh and perhaps you should go for a "smaller vocal cords" explanation - I have a hard time see you fail doing that!
Also - do you know if that is what Chris Cornell does?
Posted by: Owen Oct 10 2007, 03:10 AM
Heres an example of the glottar(vocal) fry Kaneda was talking about earlier;
http://www.lionsvoiceclinic.umn.edu/Sounds/gf.htm
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