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Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 3 2009, 02:09 PM

Hi Zen,

Welcome back to MTP program. I am sorry about misunderstanding in November. Very happy that we are officially starting now in December with no hold backs of any kind!
Since you did awesome with your 1st assignment in November, I am just going to go ahead and extend that same assignment to get you going in December. Feel free to copy and paste work you did for C major, but you will be required to put an extra effort and do it for G and F major as well.
Here is your 1st assignment for December!

Your 1st assignment for December is due week from today (10th of December)

Here is your assignment

Theory reading :

- I would like you to read my posts from links provided below.
- Once you read it all, memorize 3 and 4 part harmony in C major scale.
- Learn to apply scale degrees rather then numbers ( I in C major is C, IV in C is F etc).
- Write out in this thread all notes for 3 and 4 part harmony in C major as well as in F and G major scales.

Here are the links:

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=30271

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=30193



Let me know if you have any questions and if I could help in any way!

Pedja

Posted by: zen Dec 4 2009, 01:17 AM

Thanks Pedja, Been looking forward to this.

I've always been confused with theory, so I'll ask a lot of questions along the way.. Some of them are:

(1) When you say that I can "substitute" chords on scale degrees I III VI (for example), by substitution do you mean that If in a composition on C major scale, I can use either of those chords as tonic bases? Or does that mean that they are harmonies of each other?

(2) To a novice like myself, I always thought harmonies are played on the 3rd or 5th notes of the scale , for example a lick played somewhere around the root and then I play the same lick starting from the 3rd and 5th of that scale, to get it's harmonies. I am unable to relate the the harmonies chapter I read to this simple understanding I had in terms of practical application.

(3) Is there a typo under 'dominant type function area'? VI scale degree is mentioned as B diminished.. Should'nt that be VII scale degree? I suspect it's a typo.

I've started going through cadence.... More stupid questions to follow

Zen

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 4 2009, 01:36 AM

Hey Zen,

All great and perfectly valid questions. Lets address them one by one now...

1) When you say that I can "substitute" chords on scale degrees I III VI (for example), by substitution do you mean that If in a composition on C major scale, I can use either of those chords as tonic bases? Or does that mean that they are harmonies of each other?
I mean the first thing In other words, C major could be exchanged with E minor or A minor chords, same goes for 7th chords (C maj7 for A min7 or E min7). Again this is great if melody allows it and it all depends what you want to achieve with this diatonic substitution. It is reharmonization tool nothing more nothing less

2) To a novice like myself, I always thought harmonies are played on the 3rd or 5th notes of the scale , for example a lick played somewhere around the root and then I play the same lick starting from the 3rd and 5th of that scale, to get it's harmonies. I am unable to relate the the harmonies chapter I read to this simple understanding I had in terms of practical application.
You are right, partially. Playing harmony of certain melody or solo is one thing and what I asked you to do was to write out harmony. In other words I wanted you to write out chords that exist in specific major scale(s) and label them using specific chord symbols and roman numerals. Playing harmonies can vary anywhere from 3rds, 5ths, 6ths and 4ths (these are most common ways to harmonize melodies).

3) Is there a typo under 'dominant type function area'? VI scale degree is mentioned as B diminished.. Should'nt that be VII scale degree? I suspect it's a typo.
If it is like you just mentioned then it is definitely a typo as it should say VII scale degree is B diminished.

Let me know if you got any more questions Zen!

Pedja

Posted by: zen Dec 4 2009, 11:40 AM

Thanks Pedja for replying to my questions..

Now for the assignment:

3 part/note/triadic type harmony in C Major scale

Notes of C Major Scale - C D E F G A B C

I,IV,V scale degrees - Major Chrods
II,III,VI scale degrees - Minor Chords
VII scale degree - Diminished Chord

Hence,

I------C Maj-----C E G (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with root C)
II-----D Min-----D F A (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note D)
III-----E Min-----E G B (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note E)
IV-----F Maj-----F A C (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note F)
V------G Maj-----G B D (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note G)
VI-----A Min------A C E (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note A)
VII-----B Dim-------B D F (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note B )
VIII----C Maj-----C E G (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note C)


4 part/note type harmony in C Major scale

I,IV scale degrees - Major 7 Chords
II,III,VI scale degrees - Minor 7 chords
V scale degree - Dominant 7 Chord (blues chord)
VII scale degree - Minor 7b5 chord

I ------ C Maj7 ------C E G B (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with root C)
II ------D Min7 ------D F A C (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note D)
III -----E Min7 -------E G B D (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note E)
IV -----F Maj7 -------F A C E (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note F)
V ------G dom7 ---G B D F (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note G)
VI -----A Min7 -------A C E G (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note A)
VII -----B Min7b5 ----B D F A (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note B )
VIII ----C Maj7 ------C E G B (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note C)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 part/note/triadic type harmony in F Major scale

Notes of F Major Scale - F G A Bb C D E F

I,IV,V scale degrees - Major Chrods
II,III,VI scale degrees - Minor Chords
VII scale degree - Diminished Chord

Hence,

I --------F Maj------ F A C (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with root F)
II -------G Min------ G Bb D (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note G)
III ------A Min-------A C E (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note A)
IV ------Bb Maj----- Bb D F (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note Bb)
V -------C Maj------ C E G (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note C)
VI ------D Min------- D F A (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note D)
VII ------E Dim-------- E G Bb (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note E)
VIII -----F Maj------- F A C (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note F)


4 part/note type harmony in F Major scale

I,IV scale degrees - Major 7 Chords
II,III,VI scale degrees - Minor 7 chords
V scale degree - Dominant 7 Chord (blues chord)
VII scale degree - Minor 7b5 chord

I ---------F Maj7 -------F A C E (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with root F)
II --------G Min7 -------G Bb D F (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note G)
III -------A Min7 --------A C E G (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note A)
IV --------Bb Maj7 ------Bb D F A (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note Bb)
V --------C dom7 ----C E G Bb (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note C)
VI --------D Min7 -------D F A C (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note D)
VII -------E Min7b5 -----E G Bb D (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note E)
VIII ------F Maj7 -------F A C E (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note F)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 part/note/triadic type harmony in G Major scale

Notes of G Major Scale - G A B C D E F# G

I,IV,V scale degrees - Major Chrods
II,III,VI scale degrees - Minor Chords
VII scale degree - Diminished Chord

Hence,

I -------G Maj----- G B D (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with root G)
II -------A Min---- A C E (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note A)
III ------B Min---- B D F# (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note B )
IV ------C Maj-----C E G (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note C)
V -------D Maj---- D F# A (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note D)
VI ------E Min----- E G B (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note E)
VII -----F# Dim----- F# A C (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note F#)
VIII ----G Maj----- G B D (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note G)


4 part/note type harmony in G Major scale

I,IV scale degrees - Major 7 Chords
II,III,VI scale degrees - Minor 7 chords
V scale degree - Dominant 7 Chord (blues chord)
VII scale degree - Minor 7b5 chord

I --------G Maj7 ----------G B D F# (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with root G)
II --------A Min7 ----------A C E G (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note A)
III -------B Min7 ----------B D F# A (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note B )
IV -------C Maj7 ----------C E G B (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note C)
V --------D Dom7 ------D F# A C (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note D)
VI -------E Min7 ----------E G B D (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note E)
VII ------F# Min7b5 -------F# A C E (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note F#)
VIII ------G Maj7 ---------G B D F# (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note G)


Edit: replaced Gb with F# and chord naming conventions

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 4 2009, 11:48 AM

Zen almost perfect work, well done man !

Couple of corrections regarding chord symbols.

You don't have to write full chord name but can rather use following : C major 7 = C maj7 ; C minor7 = C min7; C dominant 7 = C dom7 or C7 (best way C7); C diminished = C dim; C augmented = C aug; C minor7b5 = C min7b5 ; C diminished 7th = C dim7

Try to use those in future as they are pretty much universal in all the universities, real books and lead sheets.

Just one more correction to your entire assignment. Please double check your G major scale and tell me if something is wrong in there?

Posted by: zen Dec 4 2009, 12:49 PM

Thanks Pedja, I'll adapt the formal chord symbols..

I'm staring very hard at the G Major scale but cant see the fault you mentioned ...

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 4 2009, 12:55 PM

Ok Zen I will help you out just a bit so you could correct the fault on your own.

Notice how C major scale has 7 different letter names?
What do you notice about G major scale, what letter name is missing in the scale???

Always keep that in mind that rule

Posted by: zen Dec 4 2009, 01:00 PM

F# of course ... But i thought i could use Gb instead of it.. No?

So it will be ... G A B C D E F# G

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 4 2009, 01:03 PM

That is the correct answer
No Gb but rather F#. It is impossible to have same letter with different accidentals. This only happens if you are writing and reading atonal music that changes keys often within the piece. Since G major is well known scale it has one sharp which is F#, we use F# instead of Gb. Same not but in theory very important to label things right and understand them.
Go ahead and correct now your text with F# in it !

Posted by: zen Dec 4 2009, 01:22 PM

Great .. Done Shortened the chord names and made the G major scale shiny

Some more questions on the 'rules':

1) In major scale, maj chords on I,IV,V ... min on II,III,VI... dim on VII ..... where did these rules come from? Why is a major chord not on II, III, or VI ..

2) Similar sort of question on the notes that make the tonic, dominant and sub dom functions.. there are some "must contains" (6th or 4th or 5th note etc) notes ... why only those notes in those functions? ..

If this is an advanced topic or if i'm jumping the gun here, then please let me know. Or point me to an external link/text

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 4 2009, 10:36 PM

Lets address each question again

1) In major scale, maj chords on I,IV,V ... min on II,III,VI... dim on VII ..... where did these rules come from? Why is a major chord not on II, III, or VI ..
In harmony we use something called Tertian harmony. That pretty much means that chords are built by using Diatonic 3rds. In plain language that means that we use every other note in the scale, we stack them one of top of another and get 3, 4 or more note chord in the end. So in C major we get C D E F G A B C scale. If we start on C note, we skip D and get E, then skip F and get G. So our chord from C is CEG. How do we know if its major or minor? Well simply by interval formula. Major chord has major 3rd followed by minor 3rd or Major 3rd and Perfect 5th from root. Also one could argue that we know the chords by their SOUND but I don't want to go there now

2) Similar sort of question on the notes that make the tonic, dominant and sub dom functions.. there are some "must contains" (6th or 4th or 5th note etc) notes ... why only those notes in those functions? ..
This is very related to your 1st question. Tonic chord is something that describes given key/mode. So C major scale, tonic chord is obviously C major. Now besides C major that has 135 of the scale in it, we also have A minor which has 613 and E minor that is weakest tonic chord that uses 357 of the key. The reason why E minor is the weakest is because it doesn't have 1 in it, which is the most stable note in major scale but it has 3 and 5 which are very useful for Tonic sound. Subdominant function by definition as I said sounds also strong like Tonic but it has some sort of different feel and movement. This is all thanks to scale degrees 2 4 and 6. In key of C major that would be notes D F A. Those notes have a tendency to move to TONIC NOTES (D to C or E, F to E or G and A to G). This is why Subdominant type chords are on the 2nd scale degree which is DFA (D minor chord uses 246 perfect) and on 4th scale degree which is FAC (F major uses 461 again perfect 4 and 6 along with TONIC sound , in and a bit out sound at the same time). When it comes to Dominant functioning chords their role is to move and resolve to either TONIC sound or Subdominant sound. When we go to Tonic sounding chord (I of the key, so G7 to C maj) that is expected resolution, while if we went G7 to F or G7 to D min , that would be unexpected way of resolving it or as we call it in music Deceptive resolution. Dominant function chords contain 2 most "unstable" notes in major scale, 4 and 7 ! 7 has tendency to move to 1 (or 8 if you will) while 4 can go to either 3 or 5 of the scale. 4 and 7 of a scale are actually minor7th and major3rd of dominant 7th chord on 5th scale degree. These two notes are called and known as guide tones. Guide tones are chord tones in any chord where we play only 3rd and 7th of that chord ( For C major7 guide tones would be E and B for example). So Dominant function chords are G major (GBD = 572) and B diminished (BDF = 724). If we do 4 part harmony we would get G7 (GBDF= 5724) and B min7b5 (BDFA=7246).
Hope this answers your question in depth and clear. Let me know if you got more questions!

Posted by: zen Dec 5 2009, 05:00 AM

Thanks Pedja .. After reading your replies thoroughly I think I've got the crux of it ...
I've finished reading modes and cadences.. No questions now but I'll have more when we start implementing it. By the way, i still cant play all the chords all over the neck that I've written down in this assignment.. i think we'll cover it gradually.
Since I improve rather slowly, can you please nominate the REC lesson that I need to record by the end of the month, so I can start warming up to it?

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 7 2009, 12:04 PM

Zen since you mentioned having trouble with playing chords from major scale around the guitar neck I have a perfect lesson for you that you will do for REC.

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Triads_in_Major_Scale_Series_Part_1/

Consider this your REC assignment by the end of the month, start working on it every day and let me know if you got any questions!

Posted by: zen Dec 7 2009, 12:53 PM

Thanks Pedja.. Last month while waiting for the mtp to begin, i did learn those chords in C Major triad but the challenges are:

-- finger picking - some notes ring out louder than the others
-- can memorize the sequence of chords as they are played on the neck in this exercise ... but struggling to randomly pick the chord in the sequence .. i noticed the maj & min chords have respective shapes in the strings they are played.... I'm trying to say that if i quiz myself that i wanna play F maj in 3-4-5 string straight away... Two ways of going through this

1- As per this exercise (since i've memorized the "sequence" i start from c maj on 3-4-5 strings 15th fret onwards and work my way down to F maj. OR
2 - find the F note on 5th string and use the pattern for maj chord.

I'm slow in both the options at the moment.. Any techniques, tricks or ideas to learn to pick the defined chord directly?

I think i should be able to post the video for this soon enough... hopefully.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 7 2009, 01:01 PM

You welcome Zen. This will be perfect series for you to master. I like that you already listed potential problems. With finger picking you need to play and practice more doing it until you get comftable sound out of all chords. Thumb seems to be problem for everybody as most people pluck strings harder with it. Try to balance it out with rest of the fingers and work on a clean and clear sound, record it and lets see what happens. Regarding sequence of chords... For purpose of learning lesson it is great to learn the sequence and play it however, you will want to randomly quiz yourself and find chords on your own. By learning this lesson with sequence your hands and brain will memorize how major minor and diminished shapes look feel and sound on all string sets. This is just C major, remember there is 11 more major keys! I would use both methods in the beginning but after you get a good grasp of this material start using 2nd method (randomly asking yourself to find specific major/minor/diminished chord on string set 654/543/432/321).

Let me know if you got any more questions. I have to prepare material for my solo performance tonight.

Posted by: zen Dec 7 2009, 01:05 PM

Great. Thanks for clearing that out Pedja ... I have already been working on some finger picking ... lets see how it goes.
I'll record a take much before the month is over hopefully... My challenge is to really know what I'm playing and to master it so i can randomize things, THAT will take some time.. will keep posting here on the progress.

All the best for your solo performance..

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 8 2009, 01:12 PM

I know you will do great with that one Zen, plenty of time to do it right.
Solo performance went great, I have another one this Thursday which I will need to prepare some classical repertoire for as well (20-30 minutes at least) so I will work on that today and tomorrow.
Let me know if you got any questions.

Posted by: zen Dec 8 2009, 01:44 PM

Thanks Pedja, the finger picking is coming along much better and relaxed today.
Are you going to post the next assignment on 10th?

Great to hear about your performance .. and you got more gigs this week ... Awesome... i like classical stuff.... Regarding performances, how do you warm up before playing? can you share some of your warm up exercises that you do on a regular basis in your routine ?

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 8 2009, 03:48 PM

Hey Zen,

I will try to post your assignment today or tomorrow. You got REC so you can focus on it for the time being, new assignment will be up on 10th or before. Regarding warm up exercises, I tend to play chord melodies to get my hands and fingers coordinated the best. When I have to do some technical pieces I would usually build up the repertoire to lead into the most technical piece so that my fingers and right hand picking can be coordinated by the time I get to play that piece. So for example I leave Eric Johnson's Manhattan and SRV for my 3rd set because of those reasons. 1st set I do only solo guitar arrangements, 2nd is rock blues pop and evergreen standards and then in 3rd set I do some Satriani Johnson Gary Moore Santana and what not Hope that makes sense!

Posted by: zen Dec 12 2009, 02:24 AM

Thanks Pedja. Continuing to work on the lesson for REC.

Looking forward to the 2nd assignment

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 12 2009, 03:57 PM

Zen I would like to see how you are doing with REC lesson. I have decided to give you official 2nd assignment for that lesson as well. It should give you extra 6 days to work on it, record it and upload video on Youtube!

Your 2nd assignment is :

Triads in C major scale part 1

- Record video of Triads in C major scale part 1 lesson found http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Triads_in_Major_Scale_Series_Part_1/
- Use backing track provided in the thread when recording it.
- Try to apply left hand fingerings I applied but stick to right hand fingerings all the way.
- Upload video on Youtube and post it in this thread here.

Deadline for this assignment is 18th of December!

Let me know if you have any questions Zen!

Pedja

Posted by: zen Dec 13 2009, 02:17 AM

Thanks Pedja, I'll record it today, if possible. Coz I've practiced it many times now. Hope i get it right in the recording. Since my pinky is not in the best shape after I tried to attempt a bend using it..

The main agenda for the day is UFC 107 !!!! woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Edit:
Ok, i've recorded it..

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 14 2009, 05:35 PM

Zen this is very good 1st draft, if I can put it that way. I am sure this will be enough for REC to get a passing grade. I think you need to focus on tuning your guitar 100% for this lesson, even slight off in tuning sticks out and sounds unpleasant. Also, try to work on your finger picking a bit more. I can hear bass note and highest note but middle note is almost unnoticeable, so try to fix that.
You still have time before deadline to submit at least another take so lets see how that goes!

Pedja

Posted by: zen Dec 16 2009, 08:47 AM

Cool, no worries. I have always tuned the guitar by ear. I'll use the tuner this time to ensure it is tuned appropriately. Will also work on that middle note plucking. Hope the next take is upto the required standard .. will try my best.

Posted by: zen Dec 18 2009, 12:04 PM

Pedja, mixed news from this side... on the positive note, i hope the tuning is ok now. It was a terrible mistake and apologies for that. On the downside, I am not able to record the 'perfect' take for you. In the progression, i always end up making mistakes, some chords ring louder than the others and sometimes the plucking is not even. Practiced it quite a lot and when I tried to record... i just couldn't deliver the perfect take. Let me know if you are not OK with this one either, and i will continue to practice the 'evenness' of the picking and upload more takes. Also i used the neck pickup, so it has a bassy tone.. I can experiment recording with the bridge pickup too.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 18 2009, 12:24 PM

Zen this is great !
You need to work on string set 321 and bring dynamics louder, everything else is great. I would give you 8 or 9 for this on REC because of that, most likely 9 because you got chord shapes down and you are playing it all in time. This is just a small detail that will improve your overall finger picking sound. You can go ahead and submit this for REC program now and I will try to post your new assignment later today!

Posted by: zen Dec 18 2009, 12:55 PM

Thanks Pedja, will continue to work on those higher strings..
I've submitted this for REC.
Cheers.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 20 2009, 05:49 PM

Zen we continue now with 3rd and 4th assignment which are due by the end of month (since you already submitted lesson for REC).

3rd assignment :

Triads in C major scale part 2

- Record video of Triads in C major scale part 2 lesson found http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Triads_in_Major_Scale_Series_Part_2/
- Use backing track provided in the thread when recording it.
- Try to apply left hand fingerings I applied but stick to right hand fingerings all the way.
- Upload video on Youtube and post it in this thread here.


4th assignment :


Chord progressions & harmony analysis

- Analyze all chord progressions bellow
- For each example write out the proper labeling of each chord
- Write a description explaining why you think certain chord progression is in such key/mode.
- For extra work, record those chord progressions and improvise over them - upload recording in this thread.

Example 1

// C / B min / A min / B min / C / B min / A min / G //


Example 2

// D min / G min / C / A min / D min / Bb / C / A min //


Example 3

// F min7 / Eb / Bb7 / Bb7 / F min7 / C min Eb / Bb7 / Bb7 //


Example 4

// Eb maj7 / D min7 / G min7 / F7 / Eb maj7 / C min7 / Bb maj7 / F7 //


Example 5

// D maj7 / B min7 / E min7 / A7 / D maj7 / F# min7 / G maj7 / A7 //


Let me know if you have any questions!

Pedja

Posted by: zen Dec 22 2009, 09:18 AM

Pedja, Here's my attempt at the 4th assignment,.. practicing the rest of the tasks...


Example 1

// C / B min / A min / B min / C / B min / A min / G //

//IV / III / II / III / IV / III / II / I //

kEY - G (two consequetive minors Amin & Bmin, make them on II & III scale degree, making the scale as G Maj)
Mode - C Lydian (starting chord is C; C is on IV scale degree in G Major, Hence mode is C Lydian)


Example 2

// D min / G min / C / A min / D min / Bb / C / A min //

// VI / II / V / III / VI / IV / V / III //

KEY - F (two consequetive minors Gmin and A min, make them on II & II scale degrees, also Bb & C on IV & V, making the scale as F Major)
Mode - F Aeolian (starting chord is Dmin; Dmin is on VI scale degree in F Major, hence mode is F Aeolian)


Example 3

// F min7 / Eb / Bb7 / Bb7 / F min7 / C min / Eb / Bb7 / Bb7 //

// II / I / V / V / II / VI / I / V / V //

KEY - Eb (dominant 7 chord is Bb7 which is on V scale degree, making the scale Eb major)
Mode - F Dorian (staring chord is Fmin7, which is on II scale degree in Eb major scale, hence mode is F dorian)


Example 4

// Eb maj7 / D min7 / G min7 / F7 / Eb maj7 / C min7 / Bb maj7 / F7 //

// IV / III / VI / V / IV / II / I / V //

Key - Bb ( dominant 7 chord is F7 which is on V scale degree, making this scale Bb Major)
MOde - Eb Lydian (staring chord is Ebmaj7, which is on IV scale degree in Bb major scale, hence mode is Eb Lydian)


Example 5

// D maj7 / B min7 / E min7 / A7 / D maj7 / F# min7 / G maj7 / A7 //

// I / VI / II / V / I / III / IV / V //

Key - D (dominant chord A7 is on V scale degree, making the scale D Major)
Mode - D Ionian (staring chord is Dmaj7 which is on I scale degree in the scale of D Major, hence mode is D Ionian)

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 23 2009, 01:58 AM

Zen let me congratulate you for getting 9 out of 10 for your REC. That was very good!!!
Now onto current assignment. I put wrong answer in bold in your post above, check it and correct it.
You got all the original scales and 4 out of 5 modes correct but you did not write proper harmony analysis. If C is Lydian, and if it is a mode by itself, why would we treat it as IV!? Shouldn't it be I!?? Yes it should and it is I maj or just I.
Also pay attention to details when writing scale degrees. For example I maj7 II min 7 etc Use it wherever appropriate, just by using symbols I II III IV etc doesn't do much for us.
Ok, I want you to correct those and you are all set with this assignment!

Posted by: zen Dec 23 2009, 09:42 AM

Pedja, I'm confused now. I probably didn't grasp the concept well. Let me share what i have understood so far in a nutshell:

Modes exist within scales. It depends on which scale degree note of the scale we start playing and come back to it. So in C Major scale, modes are C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian and so on. Now how do scale degrees get impacted when we start playing modes?

C Ionian:
I - II - III - IV - V - VI - VII - VIII
Cmaj,Dmin,Emin,Fmaj,Gmaj,Amin,Bdim,Cmaj

D dorian
Imin - II min -III - IV - V min- VI - VII - VIII min (???? is this how? i guess i was still stuck with I,IV,V on major and II,III,VI on minors)
Dmin,Emin,Fmaj,Gmaj,Amin,Bdim,Cmaj,Dmin

( I was sucessfully able to move the chords around but I struggled to apply the maj or minors on degrees and also confused with the applicaiton of "b" in bVII etc.. not sure about that. )


Let me pick 2 examples from above:

Example 2

// D min / G min / C / A min / D min / Bb / C / A min //

// VI / II / V / III / VI / IV / V / III // (this is what i wrote previously which is wrong)

// I min/ IV min/ VII maj/ V min/ I min/ VI maj/ VII maj/ V min// (is this correct?)

KEY - F (two consequetive minors Gmin and A min, make them on II & II scale degrees, also Bb & C on IV & V, making the scale as F Major)
Mode - D Aeolian (starting chord is Dmin; Dmin is on VI scale degree in F Major, hence mode is D Aeolian)


Example 3

// F min7 / Eb / Bb7 / Bb7 / F min7 / C min / Eb / Bb7 / Bb7 //

// II / I / V / V / II / VI / I / V / V // (this is what i wrote previously which is wrong)

// I min7/ VII maj/ IV 7/ IV 7/ I min 7/ V min/ VII maj/ IV 7/ IV 7 // (is this correct?)

KEY - Eb (dominant 7 chord is Bb7 which is on V scale degree, making the scale Eb major)
Mode - F Dorian (staring chord is Fmin7, which is on II scale degree in Eb major scale, hence mode is F dorian)


Improvisation extra exercise:

Ok, I've never done this before. So wouldn't call it improvising coz I had to sort of compose what I was playing very slowly first and then tied the pieces together and went with what sounded good. So attached is my solo attempt on example 1 chord progression.

Triad 1st inversion is coming along ok.. working on the 321 & 432 strings which are troublesome coz of the new shapes that Im not used to. But should be able to achieve it within deadlines. On the +side picking is improving a bit.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 23 2009, 04:31 PM

Zen I will help you with the chord labeling and scale degrees. Picture this - Major scale has all major and perfect intervals!

C D E F G A B C = C major or C Ionian

C to D = Major 2nd
C to E = Major 3rd
C to F = Perfect 4th
C to G = Perfect 5th
C to A = Major 6th
C to B = Major 7th
C to C = Octave

This is why we label scale degrees in any major scale with regular I, II , III , IV, V , VI, VII and VIII. Don't forget that we should label next to roman numeral type of chord. So for triads I might do this I, II min, III min, IV , V , VI min, VII dim, VIII. Or, we could also type I maj, II min, III min, IV maj, V maj, VI min, VII dim, VIII maj.
Now, when we talk about any other scale or other modes, we have to realize what intervals are in play compared to regular Major scale (Ionian mode).
Lets check out Dorian mode in C major scale.

D E F G A B C D = D Dorian mode

D to E = Major 2nd (same as in major scale so we use regular I and II here)
D to F = MINOR 3rd (here we have to use FLAT for III so we get bIII instead of regular III)
D to G = Perfect 4th (same as in major scale so we use regular IV here)
D to A = Perfect 5th (same as in major scale so we use regular V here)
D to B = Major 6th (same as in major scale so we use regular VI here)
D to C = MINOR 7th (here we have to use flat because in major scale we have major 7th, here we have minor 7th so we get bVII symbol instead)
D to D = Octave (this is and will be obvious and same for all the scales - in order for something to be a scale it has to start and end on the same note so thats automatically an octave interval !)

So scale degrees for D Dorian (or any Dorian mode) are : I II bIII IV V VI bVII VIII
If we apply 3 part harmony (triads) in D Dorian we would get : I min II min bIII maj IV maj V min VI dim bVII maj VIII min

Hope this helps you with the idea how to finish up the whole assignment!

Regarding your C Lydian recording there are two things I would like to say : 1) I like what you played ! Very nice ideas , repetition, sequence melodic , very nice! 2) The chord progression is not good since your 2nd chord should be B min and you played something else check it

Look forward to your work man.

Posted by: zen Dec 24 2009, 09:58 AM

Pedja, thanks a lot for the explanation. I think it's clear now. Here are my answers and some questions in red again:

Example 1

// C / B min / A min / B min / C / B min / A min / G //

// Imaj /VIImin/ VImin/ VIImin/ Imaj/ VIImin/ VI min/ Vmaj //

kEY - G (two consequetive minors Amin & Bmin, make them on II & III scale degree, making the scale as G Maj)
Mode - C Lydian (starting chord is C; C is on IV scale degree in G Major, Hence mode is C Lydian)
Notes of G major scale - G A B C D E F# G
C Lydian - C D E F# G A B C

If there was chord F# in the progression, how will its scale degree be shown? As IVaug or IV dimaug?


Example 2

// D min / G min / C / A min / D min / Bb / C / A min //

// Imin / IVmin/ bVIImaj/ Vmin/ Imin/ bVImaj/ bVIImaj/ Vmin//

KEY - F (two consequetive minors Gmin and A min, make them on II & II scale degrees, also Bb & C on IV & V, making the scale as F Major)
Mode - D Aeolian (starting chord is Dmin; Dmin is on VI scale degree in F Major, hence mode is D Aeolian)
Notes of F Major scale - F G A Bb C D E F
D Aeolian - D E F G A Bb C D


Example 3

// F min7 / Eb / Bb7 / Bb7 / F min7 / C min / Eb / Bb7 / Bb7 //

// Imin7 /bVIImaj/IV7/IV7/Imin7/Vmin/ bVIImaj/IV7/IV7//

KEY - Eb (dominant 7 chord is Bb7 which is on V scale degree, making the scale Eb major)
Mode - F Dorian (starting chord is Fmin7, which is on II scale degree in Eb major scale, hence mode is F dorian)
Notes of Eb Major scale - Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb
F Dorian - F G Ab Bb C D Eb F


Example 4

// Eb maj7 / D min7 / G min7 / F7 / Eb maj7 / C min7 / Bb maj7 / F7 //

//Imaj7/ VIImin / IIImin7/ II7/ Imaj7/ VImin7 / Vmaj7/ II7 //

Key - Bb ( dominant 7 chord is F7 which is on V scale degree, making this scale Bb Major)
MOde - Eb Lydian (starting chord is Ebmaj7, which is on IV scale degree in Bb major scale, hence mode is Eb Lydian)
Notes of Bb major scale - Bb C D Eb F G A Bb
Eb Lydian - Eb F G A Bb C D Eb

If there was chord A in the progression, how will its scale degree be shown? As IVaug?


Example 5

// D maj7 / B min7 / E min7 / A7 / D maj7 / F# min7 / G maj7 / A7 //

// Imaj7 / VImin7 / IImin7 / V7 / Imaj7 / IIImin7 / IVmaj7 / V7 //

Key - D (dominant chord A7 is on V scale degree, making the scale D Major)
Mode - D Ionian (starting chord is Dmaj7 which is on I scale degree in the scale of D Major, hence mode is D Ionian)
Notes of D major scale - D E F# G A B C# D



Now for the triad harmony revision for all the modes:

Ionian - Imaj/ IImin/ IIImin/ IVmaj/ Vmaj/ VImin/ VIIdim / VIIImaj
Dorian - Imin/ IImin/ bIIImaj/ IVmaj/ Vmin/ VIdim/ bVIImin/ VIIImaj
Phrygian-Imin/ bIImaj/ bIIImaj/ IVmin/ Vdim/ bVImaj/ bVIImin/ VIIImin
Lydian - Imaj/ IImaj/ IIImin/ IVdimaug/ Vmaj/ VImin/ VIImin/ VIIImaj
Mixolydian- Imaj/ IImin/ IIIdim/ IVmaj/ Vmin/ VImin/ bVIImaj/ VIIImaj
Aeolian - Imin/ IIdim/ bIIImaj/ IVmin/ Vmin/ bVImaj/ bVIImaj/ VIIImin
Locrian - Idim/ bIImaj/ bIIImin/ IVmin/ bVmaj/ bVImaj/ bVIImin/ VIIIdim


As for the improvisation, thanks for your feedback. Yes, i played Cmin instead of Bmin .. not quite sure how that happened .. no wonder the solo was a bit dark ..

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 24 2009, 12:35 PM

Excellent answers Zen!
Let me help you with 4th scale degree in Lydian. We would just put sharp sign in front of it. So in C Lydian if you had F# diminished triad or F# min7b5 chord we would label it #IVdim or #IVmin7b5.

Hope that clears everything up now. Fantastic work man, lets get to rest of the assignments now

Posted by: zen Dec 25 2009, 09:50 AM

Thanks Pedja.. i think i finally got the hang of it but definitely need more practice to confirm this. .. How about a few more theory questions ...?

Im on my last leg of practicing the triad lesson, which means that ive memorized the shapes now , just have to make the transitions clear and smooth.. Will upload very soon in a day or 2 hopefully.

Edit - Here's the next assignment and I think this is as clear as I can make it before my head explodes .. Hope you like it.. (I think taking yesterday off work helped me practice a bit )

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 25 2009, 04:18 PM

Cool Zen. I will give you more theory but it will be related to modes more
The video for REC is good. I like it that you know your faults , I don't have to point them out in this example. Same like before I would give you 8 or 9 here except in this video timing at certain parts sounds like you are rushing a bit when entering with new chord.
Submit it for REC lets see what happens

Oh and by the way, this lesson is part 2 . I just remember you put down #1 in there

Posted by: zen Dec 25 2009, 04:25 PM

Thanks Pedja.. Yes, since i just learnt the shapes.. not so confident of landing on the new chord immediately, which is why there's a rush. It will improve as i incorporate this in my routine ..

As for improvisation solo, I will upload another basic one tomorrow and looking forward to the theory questions

p.s - thanks for correcting the title of the vid . I've fixed it

Posted by: zen Dec 26 2009, 01:51 AM

Pedja, here's what i composed in Example 2

// D min / G min / C / A min / D min / Bb / C / A min //

I think the problem I'm facing is that:

1. Cant compose anything complicated or fast
2. Not really sure if Im stickin to the mode .. im just playin what sounds and feels right

Take attached with this post

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 26 2009, 04:11 AM

Zen cool solo sample Lets talk about your questions now...

1. In order for you to compose something fast your ear needs to listen and play fast music. So you pretty much have to listen to shred type music to get some runs in your ears. It is entirely up to you who you prefer over who but the idea is to get as much as possible from your guitar heroes. I know I started learning Santana, then Slash followed by Gary Moore and Satriani, which later followed to Eric Johnson, Mike Stern, Pat Metheny and other non guitar related musicians. You can always play sequences (groupings of notes that move through the scale/mode/pentatonic) so that could be a good starting point as well. Hope that gives you some ideas man.

2. I am hearing a lot of chord tones and available tensions in your solos. If you will have some extra time try to analyze what notes you played over each chord and you will see why it works

Overall I am happy with what you did here. You also used drums and rhythm guitar. I think rhythm guitar could be more tighter and in sync with drum beat, otherwise very good work. If you are thinking of adding bass part, remember that ROOTS are always your best choice when playing bass. Occasionally you could throw in 3rd and/or 5th of the chord but that might be too crowded for specific style and tempo of music.

Let me know if you need any more help man

Posted by: zen Dec 26 2009, 04:34 AM

That's the sad part .. I listen to metal mostly and most guitarists have fast licks, chops and shredding solo's. I still have to master those techniques though. I mostly cant figure out what they're playing but thats what I like 'listening' to .. In terms of solo artists, i've heard satriani the most and love his playing style. I hear people say that it's also based on one's lick vocabulary .. more licks one learns the better he can incorporate them in his playing style.. i guess i'll have to start learning some licks. STarting with sequences or the scale itself played runs of 3rd's of 5ths is a good idea, i'll try that. Thanks for that . + I also think in order to "think fast shreddy stuff" , i gotta change the backing to somethin more appropriate so it gives me suitable ideas for it. I will try it next time.




Thank you very much for your kind feedback. This is the first time i recorded a backing and tried to play a solo over it .. so yes, it will hopefully improve from here. I'll analyse the notes as well.

Edit: Ive analysed the notes .. All of them are from the F major scale or the F key.. so it fits .. But I wanna learn where modes come into practice.. Each mode hasa different 'sound' from what Ive heard but we are playing the same notes in all modes , how is the sound going to be different? Does that mean to make this solo in true D Aeolian , i start my solo from the note D always ?

Edit 2: I played the same progression in power chords and recorded a concept of a solo..Please see attached file.. It has timing and note faults everywhere but this is what I was speaking about .. Its an idea .. I wanna build on such a style..

I'm really enjoying this MTP

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 27 2009, 07:49 PM

Zen this is excellent stuff! You used sequence and strong chord tones in your melody. There was repetition and development as well. Backing track was in different style, you used power chords and different drum beat. Overall this is definitely better then the first take. Important thing is within day you could hear improvement! Imagine what you can get to in a month time?!?
Regarding your questions over modal application... Notice that chord progression is in D Aeolian for couple of reasons : 1) Starts on D minor 2) Uses chords from D Aeolian or F major parent scale 3) Uses D Aeolian type chord cadence or chord progression. Now here is the real deal. When D minor is in the background you are playing D Aeolian which means your characteristic note in that cadence is b6 which is Bb note. As soon as G minor kicks in you are really now in G Dorian! Here you got natural 6 or tension 13 as characteristic note which is E note! Notice that both D Aeolian and G Dorian come from F major scale. They contain the same notes but different order of half and whole steps depending on starting note of the scale.
The lesson you need to get out of all this is CHORD DETERMINES THE MODE AND THE SOUND ITSELF. So if you want to follow analysis you will figure out that over C you are using C Mixolydian mode, over Bb Bb Lydian and over A minor A Phrygian mode!

I am enjoying working with you and your progress Zen. Keep up the good work man.

Posted by: zen Dec 28 2009, 12:27 PM

Thanks Pedja .. It's becoming clearer now
If I were to put it in a ZEN like philosophy...... It's like mixing colors to combine new colors ... so playing any particular mode over a backing chord merges with it to create a particular sound.. a new color

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 29 2009, 04:06 AM

This is very true Zen, well said

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jan 2 2010, 07:15 PM

Zen you did fantastic in December, I am very proud of your work and pace. I am closing this thread now and will open one for January very soon.