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Posted by: fkalich Nov 1 2008, 08:11 AM

Europeans and everyone else can vote. Anything that can save us from the Republicans (I used to be one b.t.w. before they went totally stupid and despicable)

I fully understand that if one has solid financial security and is primarily motivated by personal greed, or if a person otherwise is absolutely insane, that McCain could be the logical choice. And everyone has the right to vote as they choose, no matter how stupid.

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 1 2008, 08:22 AM

usually when one conducts such a poll they try and leave their personal decision out of the picture...

all is good though... personally, I don't know enought about either candidate (and I don't think anyone can say they do know enough) so I am not voting (in the election). but if you put a gun to my head and said choose.... there I voted... but you dont know who...

Posted by: audiopaal Nov 1 2008, 09:19 AM

Obama

Edit: ...and the choice is one of the easiest I've ever made

Posted by: Nazgul Nov 1 2008, 09:31 AM

Me too. Obama is the man.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 1 2008, 09:41 AM

I will explain it to you.

Republican plan - The haves keep what they have, preferably more, screw the peasants. Regarding the rest of the world, use them as we can, but screw them also, after all, they are all foreigners. Also keep paying 1 1/2 to 2 times the amount per person than they do in Europe and Canada for medical care, and convince everyone we have the best in the world, even though we rank 30th in the world in life expectancy. After all, we don't want to stand in line for 6 months like they have to do in Europe if they break their leg, before anyone treats it.

Democrat plan - Maybe the people who work their asses off for minimum wage deserve better, and maybe those who suck 100 times as much out of the system deserve a bit less. And maybe we should try to get along a bit better with the rest of the world.

You make your choice. But is is your duty to vote, even if one is nuts enough to vote Republican, still you should vote.

edit: spelling

Posted by: Velvet Roger Nov 1 2008, 09:48 AM

Easiest choice made in a long time for me as well .... you don't even wanna think about having McCain as president, imagine he dies (he's quite young though ) and then we are stuck with Palin as President (tbh that's even worse).

Posted by: Noangels Nov 1 2008, 09:54 AM

Cant vote,I think Ron Paul would have been the one for me!

Obama and Mccain are an illusion in choice as are most goverments that fool the people into thinking that every 4 years or so they have a choice in how their country is run.There not the ones who make policies,you have to follow the money trail to see who is moudling this planet into increasing their families vast wealth at the expense of us normal people.

We are nothing but cattle to be milked of our money,and be slaves to this system from birth to death(and taxed beyond death!)

Lets get rid of all of them!

Posted by: fkalich Nov 1 2008, 10:09 AM

My Brother runs a Newspaper in the South. Even being Catholic, he wrote an Editorial endorsing Obama. The response from the public there was hilarious. He got called every nasty name in the book. Someone said of my brother "he has more integrity than he has brains". He called the Palin choice "bizarre".

That is what pretty much sold me on Obama, his decent choice of VP. After McCain's choice, I am thinking that those who say the guy is half nuts may be on to something.



It is not relevant. The point is, that the alternative to Democracy is much worse, whatever the problems we have, whatever the flaws, it is better than the alternative. So that is why you vote, it is your duty, vote for Bozo the Clown if you want, but it is your duty to vote.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 1 2008, 11:51 AM

Easy. Obama. We are in serious trouble over the world if McCain wins.

Posted by: mjsteps Nov 1 2008, 12:34 PM

In the world of post modern thinking "truth is just a matter of opinion, devoid of facts".

(please see bottom for my vote)

This is not an election but simply a selection made by what should be known as the "US state run Media".

To my european brothers and sisters look at the facts.

To the world who has under gone the "economic" crisis understand this is a result of Democrates plain and simple. THe facts are there, the voting records, hearings are a matter of public record yes read them and weep. Barney Franks (D) champion of "fannie mae" and the sub-prime mortgae industry. Whose lover was the CEO but he and Barney are no longer togather. Chris Dodd, banking chair and once again a (D) took a sweet heart mortgae deal with a low low intrest rate that you or I could ever get. Did nothing but turn the other way.

Bush 2003 told the congress to " fix the mess"

Mcain 2005 put a bill on the floor to reform the sub-prime mortgae industry. Democrates filubustered the bill and never made it to the floor.

Why vote for a candidate that voted to raise taxes 95 times. Why vote for a canidate that believes in re-distribution of so-called wealth. Why vote for a candidate who has spent $600 million to buy the election. Why vote for a canidate whose party will have full reign in the congress and the senate. Why vote for a canidate that chose a running mate whose "expertise" is forgein policy but yet in his debate he made 14 false statements and knows nothing about forgein afffairs. The consquences under Obama will be much greater.

On the other said not much can be said.

I vote for.......................MICKEY MOUSE

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 1 2008, 12:44 PM

I'd choose intelligence over guns and violence any day so Obama is who I'd vote for.

Posted by: Siggum Nov 1 2008, 12:48 PM

Obama

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 1 2008, 12:50 PM

I think the poll speaks for itself 22 to 1 lol

Posted by: Rooks Nov 1 2008, 12:56 PM

I think Obama and Mccain could both do good for the States in their own way...

But I vote Obama as I am terrified of that Palin woman's radical and fanatic politics..

+ I think too many innocent people have died in Iraq as it is, and I support Obamas opinion about withdrawing as soon and as clean as possible.

I believe in Iraq getting stabilized. I just don't think military power is going to do anything other than making more enemies and getting people killed. All those money spend on missiles, bullets and fuel can be put to way better use.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 1 2008, 12:58 PM

Actually, no, it just proves that the rest of the world wants what it perceives to be best for it, but funnily enough, the Americans are going to vote for what they perceive to be best for them ...

Oh, and here is the obligatory warning:

Lets keep this one Civil guys - no name calling please

Posted by: Guitarman700 Nov 1 2008, 01:00 PM

Neither.
In before the argument!

Posted by: MickeM Nov 1 2008, 01:07 PM

My vote is on Mr Guitartube

We could however have a problem when he calls other leaders "you prick" and says "I'll crush you like mosquito". I know he's good hearted but maybe lacks some humbleness. But still, a good call for president!

Posted by: Mrblomme Nov 1 2008, 01:08 PM

Obama

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 1 2008, 01:11 PM

Posted by: N4085B Nov 1 2008, 01:18 PM

I'm with Noangels on this one; I can't stand either of them thus I'm voting Libertarian (Bob Barr/Wayne Root) and voting against any incumbant in the other races whether democrat or republican. The definition of insane is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result....we've been voting for the same two parties for the past 50+ years here and they both suck. They only care about staying in power and getting re-elected....no matter what the cost. Throw the bums out!

Posted by: Fsgdjv Nov 1 2008, 01:25 PM

Howcome there are only two candidates? I never really understood how that system works, and what's the deal wth the electors? I wouldn't mind if someone could shed some light on how (and if) that system actually works, if that's not straying to much off topic.

Voted Obama btw.

Posted by: kyldeee Nov 1 2008, 04:46 PM

I'm with Obama

Posted by: bricktop Nov 1 2008, 07:20 PM

I'm voting for Obama. Basically, I want to see our troops coming home. As a veteran from the first Gulf War, it's hard to believe we are still dealing with that mess...

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 1 2008, 07:33 PM

I am completely familiar with Obama centered argument against McCain, which you have just outlined... I'm just saying... when you listen to the McCain centered argument against Obama... It becomes very difficult to choose...

And regarding this specifically


I don't believe in this philosophy... I think that their are too many people out there that vote for the sake of voting... and too me that is not voting at all... I think when you say this too somebody, and you make them go vote... they don't know who they are going to vote for, and basically wind up closing their eyes and pointing to somebody (metaphorically)

Posted by: N4085B Nov 1 2008, 10:50 PM

This guy gets it.....(although I still can't vote for mccain)...I do identify with what he is saying.....bigger government is rarely, if ever, a better solution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxhYampIl7A&feature=related

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Nov 1 2008, 11:12 PM

Obamas tax policy is absurd. He will most likely win, but whatever.

Nobama 08'

Posted by: Muris Varajic Nov 2 2008, 01:37 AM

Obama of course,
and I hope he'll bring some real changes,
US administration is very complex thing
and president is pretty often just a face.

Posted by: Duncan Nov 2 2008, 02:04 AM

If only Bush could get it for another term.

Posted by: Siggum Nov 2 2008, 02:10 AM

LOL

Posted by: IDontWantMyUsername Nov 2 2008, 02:30 AM

Voted for Obama

I think we should send this poll to USA as an example for what the world wants

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 2 2008, 05:22 AM

I just feel that the general public isn't educated enough to vote in an intelligent manner... and ....

I feel this is a by-product of too many people that are easily swayed by the attack ads you see on TV.

bottom line is I feel that people like the idea of electing a younger, African, democratic president... and they vote more based on this than anything else.

Posted by: Velvet Roger Nov 2 2008, 01:47 PM

That's basically the problem in general for many elections at whatever place on earth.

For example, our government/parliament in the Netherlands would never ever have been like it's current distribution if only people could vote who actually fully understand/read the different political parties view/statements/etc instead of just voting for a nice face, a popular statement (influence of media) etc.

Not much to do about this, but this is one of the serious flaws in democracy nowadays

Posted by: fkalich Nov 2 2008, 02:32 PM

Generally that has been the case. But if you think that there is not A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE this time, you are not paying much attention. Obama is going to make some serious changes, more than a lot of people realize. If Obama gets 60 Dems in the Senate you will see legislation in the first two years that nobody even dreamed possible a few years ago, they won't be able to stop him. And it will be a good thing for the future of the country. No more World Wars to win in the future, we have to change or ways, and move ahead with the times, not be dinosaurs thinking we can bring back the past.

I have a theory on Palin, why the old guy picked her. Insurance. The Dems are not forgetting the Clinton impeachment. That was a travesty, to impeach him over that. Every president had done worse, the only time anyone had been impeached before that was after the Civil war, where 600,000 were killed and half the country destroyed, more serious times. However McCain knows that they will be afraid to do that should he get in, as look what would replace him! I still find it hard to believe anyone would pick someone like that as VP, but considering he is someone who thinks getting on SNL and playing a buffoon is presidential behavior, I guess it should not be surprising. People act like that as they appraoch senility.




I see this election much like how it was on the plantation when we had slavery, that is, if they had let the slaves vote about whether they wanted to be free.

Now the house slaves they had nice new clothes, and got to eat in the kitchen, so they loved the Massah. But most of the field hands, well they got whipped a lot, so most of them wanted to be free. But even some of the field hands still would have voted for the massah, because they knew, without the massah, they would all die.

Posted by: tommyboy Nov 3 2008, 12:04 AM

I guess since I will be voting I should partake. Obama

Man I wish all of you could vote. Then it wouldn't even be close!

tommyboy

Posted by: -Zion- Nov 3 2008, 09:22 AM

Obama here.

I think the choice for us europeans is quite an easy choice.. I believe that Obama have some really nice things on his agenda and he seems genuine, honest and overall just seems like he knows more about the outside world than mccain.

McCain.. Chosing sarah as VP after telling the nation that obama is WAY too young.. come on.. furthermore he's what 72? years old, and spend over half a decade locked up and tortured in Vietnam. I dont care who you are, that leaves scars on your soul. I have every bit of respect for the people who serve their country as the next guy, but i cannot help thinking that in this case being locked away for that long will have a negative impact on the world as a whole.

With that said, I can perfectly understand why the american people dont think it's an easy choice. The changes Obama represent is a big handful, and many believe that he will take away their money and what not for healthcare, schools and what not.

Here in Denmark, we have all those things for free. We do pay lots of taxes, but medical care should not be based on the size of your wallet. It should be every persons right. Just as education should be. Educations helps the future of the country. This is why, to me, the choice is an easy one..

I *KNOW* that i dont have as much information on either candidate as the americans *SHOULD* have. All i can hope is that ALL who can, go and vote. Then the outcome will be justified (whatever the outcome may be)

Posted by: Nemanja Filipovic Nov 3 2008, 09:24 AM

I don't know how much here in Europe we will feel the change of the outcome.But for shore I will like to see Obama as president.

Posted by: Young Guitarist Nov 3 2008, 10:50 AM

HAHA! Funniest thing ive seen in days!


I voted for obama, i know you all just think im a kid and such, but i know alot about politics

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 3 2008, 10:53 AM

I think Rambo would actually make a better president that McCain. Doesn't McCain have a book coming out called how to destroy the world in a year

Posted by: Young Guitarist Nov 3 2008, 02:48 PM

McCain will destroy USA if he becomes president. I hope Obama wins.

Rambo would be kickass. lmao

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 3 2008, 02:50 PM

If only this poll meant anything I will be sad and watch all the election coverage from Midnight here in the UK.

Posted by: mjsteps Nov 4 2008, 11:07 AM

Obamas Tax Plan

For the past 10 years I have been getting up to go to work six days a week and every day for the last ten years my neighbor sits on his porch, says hello and tells me to have a wonderful day.
Today my neighbor meet me at the car as I was leaving and he asked me if perhaps this week I might work some extra hours and even perhaps work seven days a week, so that he could buy his wife a birthday present.


This is what is called "redistribution" of wealth. So get back to work, give a little extra cause someone else needs it.

The problem with the plan. I am not wealthy. I work hard. Started from ground zero, prospered through hard work, long hours, having to quit jobs, take better ones, put myself through college raising 3 kids and yet not once did I look for a helping hand. Then my world came crashing down. I could of easily filed bankrupcy, cried for help or just given up but no, you press on, you sacrifice, you do what ever you have to do to make your situation better. I could go on about how low my life was but this is not the place.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 4 2008, 11:23 AM

Not long now. Obama better win but I still think McCain will somehow win because I don't think Americans will have the sense to vote for Obama. They like bloodshed whereas in the UK we don't and we are ripping Labour apart for going into Iraq.

Posted by: USAMAN Nov 4 2008, 12:05 PM

you obviously know nothing

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 4 2008, 12:06 PM

I know lots. What makes you think I know nothing? If Obama wins I will be wrong but I think he will miss out.

Posted by: wrk Nov 4 2008, 12:35 PM

Maybe you don't know the complete story of your neighbor?
Could be that he is working from home, cares about his handicapped and sick wife 24/7 and the birthday present are medicaments he can not pay on his own to give her a few hours relief of pain.... you never know.

You are right in this way, that there will always be people who take advantage of "redistribution of wealth". The question is, who will build the majority? People with need for financial support or the once who take advantage. To evaluate each situation is normally the task of the corresponding governmental institution and not the task of the neighbor ..

I have a lot of respect for how you manage your and your family's life on your own without asking for help. Only with people like you this system will work, but not everybody has a father or husband like you. This is something we easily forget when trying to manage our own daily problems and stress.

Posted by: Noangels Nov 4 2008, 12:49 PM

I think Obama isnt going to last his full term,some crazy idiot over there is bound to take a shot at him because of his colour and the fact they believe the Fox muslim smears headed his direction on air.

People are saying that if Obama doesnt win it there might be riots,that could also swing the other way as there seems to be a fair bit of anger generated in that camp too!

I wouldnt vote for either as I have mentioned early on.And to be frank our American brothers and sisters can vote as they damm well like for whatever reasons that may concern them.I only hope we dont get another religious warmonger who think gods speaks to him and he is doing gods work!

Our last PM here Tony Blair was another god squad fanatic who thought the same way as that draft dodging,pretzel choking,former cheerleader(lol) across the pond


*edit*I need new batteries for this keyboard some letters I typed never came up!

Posted by: Capt.Z Nov 4 2008, 01:05 PM

There is a chance Obama will not win... Think about it.

On average about 60% of registered voters don't vote. That probably takes a
crapload of Obama supporters out of the picture... Then again, who knows...

But I don't really care, I Never really thought the president changed a HUGE amount
of America, there are still other branches that decide if his laws pass.

I've been through several national elections, and no matter who won, my life was still the same

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 4 2008, 01:16 PM

This will be the biggest turn out in a long time. It certainly wont have 60% of registered voters not voting this year.

Posted by: Capt.Z Nov 4 2008, 01:18 PM

That is probably true...

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 4 2008, 01:43 PM

Sweeping generalizations about whole countries are usually sloppy thinking - the USA is made up of millions of people, each with their own diverse thoughts and opinions, a blanket statement like that is not only inaccurate, but also divisive and potentially insulting.

I'm sure all the Iraqis that were killed by UK troops appreciated the fact that they didn't like the bloodshed - perhaps it hurt less as a result? Truth is, for better or for worse, both the UK and USA went into Iraq - claiming a moral high ground because the UK populace whined a little to the government about it is a little baffling to me. And you should be aware that there is also a movement over here protesting the USA's Iraq involvement - the USA is not 300 million zombies chanting for more military action in one voice - when you get down to it, they are just regular people like you and me and everyone else on GMC, so please, lighten up on the sweeping generalizations!

Posted by: fkalich Nov 4 2008, 01:43 PM

If you have not voted, you probably have seen this, but just a reminder of what we are a 72 year old's heart beat away from if McCain were to win.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjZW4z9zqqY

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 4 2008, 01:57 PM

Unfortunately the UK doesn't have much choice as USA seems to just string us along no matter what the UK populace may say. I detest soldiers fighting in Iraq in an illegal war. They deserve no respect. The more that die the better as they don't need to be there and shouldn't be there. I love the UK and love being here but we are just following USA in everything and I think we should think for ourselves on a few things.

Since when was the army supposed to be about aggression and attacking within other countries. It's called the Ministry of Defence and in what way is killing people in Iraq for no reason Defence. And then people say oh well the Iraqis are killing are people. But oh wait you are invading their country with weapons and you expect them just to accept it. If they came into our country and tried to do the same thing do you think we'd attack back. I think so.

But anyway I don't want to get into an argument as it drives me insane. I love being in the UK and I'd love for Obama to win as I think he'd more quickly and efficiently end this illegal war and make other great moves.

One things for certain whoever the president of the USA is has a huge impact on us in the UK.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 4 2008, 02:19 PM

Heh, that's fine, I don't have a problem with your views ... don't agree with all of them but don't disagree with all of them either!

Having lived both in the UK and the US I now understand the differences and similarities between both places, and having myself been guilty of similar generalizations in the past, I try and avoid them now!

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 4 2008, 02:21 PM

I've been in USA for 2 weeks of my 24 years on Earth so far lol so I don't fully know what people in USA are thinking too much. I try not to read too much into media here as well as they all lie. It's difficult to come to your own judgments that are correct. I just want the world to be a better place which I can't see happening for a while. I'd love to go to any country in the world and feel safe wherever I go.

Posted by: Noangels Nov 4 2008, 02:25 PM

Steady on mate,I have friends who are in the army and I dont support them being there or the war but I wouldnt wish them or their families the pain of losing loved ones in a travesty of a war pushed onto us by dispicable little people who love money more than human life!

We should pull out,and those lying scum who lied to our nations should be bought to trial and if (when)found guilty should be dangling from the same noose that was used on Saddam.That also includes AlistairCambel the vile little bully boy who seems to have been forgiven by the BBC and the media on whole for spreading that 45min crap to the tabloids and allowing it to do the rounds for so long!Shame Dr Kelly was murdered as he knew the full score on the WMD's

Anway I wish no harm for our lads,and I wish no harm for the Arabs out there.I would pay good money to be locked in a room with Bush,Blair,Cheeney,Rummy and Alistair and I can honestly say there wouldnt be a trial needed afterwards

Posted by: MickeM Nov 4 2008, 02:36 PM

And you know, he's mother must be very proud. Age seem to run on mothers side so you may very well see McCain for another 30 years.



Now even your own?

Posted by: -Zion- Nov 4 2008, 03:31 PM

I think this thread is turning into something it wasn't supposed to..

I will just leave my comment on the troops in different fighting areas around the world..

I think every trooper that is sent out to do a job has to be respected and honored.. The war itself may or may not be of the wrong reasons, but whatever the reason may be, the troops are just doing their job.. Blame the government (vote for another party next time).. not the troops..

Posted by: Noangels Nov 4 2008, 03:34 PM

LOL Yeahh,I think a lot of people on this planet would pay a large sum to be in a locked room with them for 10 mins

I would bore them to death with my guitar playing Couldnt say any more or I would be on the M15/CIA hitlist and getting a suntan in Cuba with a beutifull bright red overall

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 4 2008, 03:35 PM

At least some army people in the UK had the decency to refuse to go and even though the consequences are far from great it shows that some people in the army require respect for sure. They are the people who showed great honour by refusing to kill innocent people.

You can't get away with saying anything anymore I don't think If I said I'm going to piddle on Gordon Brown's front door I'd probably be classed as a terrorist

Just because I widdle on his door doesn't mean I want to destroy the country

Posted by: fkalich Nov 4 2008, 03:35 PM

"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"?

--Mark Twain

Posted by: inertia Nov 4 2008, 03:54 PM

Pretty much agree with your points, I like Kucinich more than Paul though...

Posted by: Noangels Nov 4 2008, 03:58 PM

Cheers mate,lets hope more people open thier eyes to this illusion of voting for the main parties!I bet the string pullers are vastly amused at how long they have been getting away with it!

Posted by: Jesse Nov 4 2008, 04:18 PM

I'm not american, but hell, I'd vote for the democrates! Still sad for obama that his granny died

Posted by: fkalich Nov 4 2008, 04:20 PM

said this before. generally that is the case. this time the differences are pretty vast. for one thing a zillion federal judges have been delaying retirement until a liberal got in, so a liberal judge would replace him. Those jobs are for life.

I believe that Obama is without question the best for the future, slam dunk. However if all Americans really knew what he intended, they would not vote for him.

Just as in 1940 they would not have reelected FDR if they knew that he realized that we needed to get in and stop Hitler, and was going to do so. He told them the opposite in the election.

Obama is pretty radical. Which is a good thing in my book. He can't go to fast, we have checks and balances, a house of representatives that gets elected every two years particularly. Clinton pushed his luck early and had to alter course because he lost the house in the mid term. But I expect an 8 year plan here, and an intelligent and well thought out 8 year plan.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 4 2008, 04:22 PM

I heard he may ban fire arms as well

Which I don't think initially is a good idea but over a long span is needed I think.

Posted by: MickeM Nov 4 2008, 04:22 PM

If you play so bad people drop dead I can't see how you could make a hitlist

Posted by: Jesse Nov 4 2008, 04:23 PM

What's he intending?

Posted by: fkalich Nov 4 2008, 06:14 PM

Well, joining the rest of the civilized world on health care for instance. Currently we have a terrible system, pricing is set by the parties involved to screw the public. Most people have health coverage as part of their compensation from their employer. I expect this will be transformed to a comporation tax that will support a general system that covers everybody. And the Walmarts of the world and other that don't play for their employees now, will pay into it also.

Considering that the US pays 1 1/2 to 2 times as much for health care per person as anywhere in Europe, this will actually save corporations who are paying now money.

You will see people who make a lot of money paying a greater share of taxes.

Also expect that the US will abandon the "go it alone" policy on military matters.

I am not so critical of the past as others. But we have passed the post WWII era, and now need to do things differently, we can't get those times back anymore than we can our dead grandfathers.

Also, I expect fewer totally stupid advisers. The problem with Bush was not that he was evil, but poorly advised. Obama has smarter people advising him.

Picking Palin shows how stupid the Republicans have become, if you need more evidence.

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 06:23 PM

It seems to me that I have as much choice in who my leader is as I do in what meals are available on an airplane.

Oh wait, I do get to choose between turkey and roast beef... And I get the one I pick.

The electoral college picks my leader for me.....

 untitled.bmp ( 927.06K ) : 122

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 4 2008, 06:33 PM

Check out the UK for an example of how public health should NOT be done - its not a pannacea unless its done right. Not that I fully support the current US system, but one thing it does right is provide excellent service to its customers. The UK health service is spotty and inconsistent by contrast.

Prices should be controlled, access should be universal, but please don't make it entirely public, or you will be waiting in line a year for a bypass operation like they do in the UK ...

Posted by: fkalich Nov 4 2008, 06:38 PM

I don't know if you are serious, but if so, you are not thinking about this correctly.

The weight of your state is based on its population.

The reason this is a good system, is that if forces the candidates to do a grass roots campaign and visit the regular people. If you just elect by national vote, they tend to stick to the big cities, or TV.

I will never criticize our system of electing officials, or system of checks and balances. I think our system is unsurpassed, and would not like to see any changes.


edit: and your vote matters. None of the major candidates are in doubt where I live, the Democrat will win in the House, the Republicans in for the President and Senate. However you still vote, you participate. The world does not revolve around you, to an extent, you just do your duty.

Next time get registered.

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 06:50 PM

Oh I'm registered.

My point is that the public doesnt choose. We never have.

The electoral college does. They always have.

Its a safety net for government. To make sure the people don't do anything "stupid" I suppose.

They put 2 people in front of me and say "Pick". 2???? Thats it?

And then they dont even trust me to pick the right one. The higher ups in the states will place the votes that count.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 4 2008, 07:01 PM

You are saying nationalize it but don't nationalize it. For all practical purposes, controlling prices means nationalization. It is going to happen, and yes, it won't be quite as good as people who have good coverage (such as you and I) have now. But there is no alternative. It will happen. There is no other solution that will solve the growing time bomb that is health coverage in this country. If Obama gets 60 Dems in the Senate, it will happen sooner.

When anyone wants to tell me how great our system is compared to others, I like to show them this chart, and have them explain why that is.





Again, the justification for it is that it forces the candidates to visit the regular people, do a grass roots campaign, rather than sit in a tv studio.

Do you want all 300 million of us to go to congress and vote on things also? How will we fit into the building.

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 07:03 PM

Nah... Do it via the net or by phone.

Isn't it interesting that we have a much more efficient system for choosing the winners for "Dancing With The Stars" or "American Idol" than we do our president?

Posted by: wrk Nov 4 2008, 07:07 PM

you mean one person can call 1000 times and with that vote 1000 times? .... sorry, stupid joke of me

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 4 2008, 07:11 PM

I find this rather disturbing that you said soldiers deserve no respect...

While I can accept that a lot of people think this war has turned into... at the beginning it started as an initiative to rid the world of terrorism... and that is most certainly a noble cause to fight for.

on top of that... if you looking for somebody to hate... dont hate the soldiers. they have to do what they are told... maybe most of the soldiers didnt sign up to fight in a very controversial war... but dont hate them, if you are going to hate someone, hate the people that sent them to war.

and I leave you with this... picture a world without Islamic extremism (aka terrorism)...

It's a much better place isn't it???

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 07:13 PM

If the electoral college ends up choosing anyway, sure. Have at it.

Nah, you give each person a code of some type. Register online, get your code, like you do for so many other things. Using the system we do just seems so archaic....

Posted by: rokchik Nov 4 2008, 07:24 PM

You have MORE people voting for "Dancing with the Stars" and "American Idol" then you do for the Leader of your country. But it's the same here in Canada. There is a greater value and interest put on entertainment then choosing who will lead and represent our countries.

I'm very interested in this election. I am not an American, but here in Canada what the US does greatly effects us due to the fact that we share a border. Actually I'd even go as far as saying that there are more Canadians paying attention to the US election right now then when we had our own election a few weeks ago... didn't anyone even know we had a federal election? I'm not a huge fan of either candidate, I would have gone with Hilary but that's me. However Obama strikes me as a guy who will invoke change, and for the better. Mc Cain has his good views and ideas but I think he lost some credit in taking on Palin as his running mate. She seems rather ill equipped to be VP, but Biden doesn't really scream confidence either. Either way I think it's going to be a lot closer then most think....

It will be an interesting evening to say the least.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 4 2008, 07:24 PM

I don't want it to be as easy at going to the toilet. Seriously, if a person won't take just a bit of effort to vote, then what does that tell you about them? I personally am glad if the lazy asses of the world don't vote.

I am not directing this at you, just want to make sure that is clear. Just think a bit of effort should be part of the process, it eliminates the shiftless/lazy from the process, and I don't think that the shiftless/lazy ass segment of society is the one to direct it the best.

Posted by: AudunESP Nov 4 2008, 07:29 PM

I chose obama becouse his politics is better a bit for the world, but also for the single american worker. Obama, or generaly the democratian politics, have verry alike politics of what we have in norway. And what people is living better than in norway? statisticly NOONE. and thats becouse you don't need insurance for health care,and EVERYONE have the right to have it. And the taxes is individual after each persons income, which i think is a GREAT idea, where the people who have super sized boats, pooorly may have to work a little more for their little super-sized boat, poor rich people...(irony, for those who wondered) and those who barely can't afford to pay their houses, maybe have a little more chanse not to become homeless, though we have a wide range of ..."parachutes"(only word to describe it). I don't know super-much about politics, but i know enough to say that i hope, for not only the americans, but the rest of the world too, that Obama wins.

someone from norway: please correct me if i'm wrong.


BTW: if MCCain wins, im glad HE was the winning candidate of the Republicans, becouse he is(what i've heard) much more radical than other republicans, and is opposed to the rest of his party. He Is verry much opposed of the bush administration, and the reason(again what i've heard) he took that super-conservative woman in leader(of something i don't remember, sorry ) is to balance out the politics, to not lose the more concervative voters, but i think he still will make a bit change too, but still not as much, and/or positive as Obama, but its still a bit. (Most of this is based on what my teacher told me, so sorry if its absolutely wrong)

Posted by: fkalich Nov 4 2008, 07:29 PM

Letting Palin run it would be like letting a 6 year old drive a truck. Seriously. She was mayor of a small town in Alaska 2 years ago, and then Gov of Alaska, one of our least populated states. Just listen to her talk, that tell all.

Biden has been around, his is no dummy. He could handle the job, she could not.

McCain's picking her illustrates how I have felt about him for years. He is a dolt. He graduated 899th our of 954 at the Navel Academy, bottom 1%. He has been given a pass for the POW thing. He is a dolt, and grossly over rated, has always been.

Obama is very talented, and has had major players around him for 6 years grooming him for the Presidency.
He is very well advised.

Hillary was ok, but people just naturally did not like here, that would have worked against her. People like Obama.

edit: just to make a point, Bush has an estimated I.Q. of 127. McCain has an estimated I.Q. of 115. Based on testing in college. There you go. You all thought Bush was stupid. Take away 12 I.Q. points, maybe more as he is 72 now.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 4 2008, 07:31 PM

We could discuss that ... I don't claim to have all the answers, but by controlling prices I am talking about effects not necessarily government policies. In capitalists societies, costs are generally controlled through competition - why isn't that working here? That's the sort of question I would prefer to ask and address ahead of taking the whole industry public. I am by no means an expert in US health finance though, so maybe this is a naive assumption on my part.



At first sight that's a compelling chart - but its really just a soundbite, or should that be eye-bite? As you and I know the reality is way more complex than that.

It could mean what you want it to mean, or it could mean that homeless beggars in Spain live longer with no legs and chronic diseases, than people in the US that benefit from artificial limbs and antibiotics - my point being that length of life is not necessarily the only measure of the effectiveness of health care.

One thing that graph does very clearly show is that the US does pay way more on health care than anywhere else, and here I agree with you - whatever reform takes place it should be aimed towards extracting value from that money for the end users of the health care, and making it more accessible. I'm not however a believer in the extreme opposite to this that nationalised healthcare represents, as it is hard to do it well.

To be fair, I have heard talk that France has an exceptional nationally run health service, so it sounds like it is possible, although I also believe that France has way higher taxes than the US and I'm not a Tax & Spend kind of guy.

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 07:35 PM

I know you arent aiming that at me. Its all good.

I disagree. I think if the country is to choose its leader, then that leader should be chosen by the majority.

Didnt you just say "Everybody should particpate?" Do their duty?

Yeah, what would happen if EVERYBODY voted?

The current system isnt "the people".

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 4 2008, 07:38 PM

Ok, this is starting to become a shouting match - lets steer clear of insulting the candidate please ...

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 4 2008, 07:39 PM

Picture a world without American extremism (aka terrorism)..

It's the same thing. You can't lump people together just like Andrew said to me. There are extremists in every country and in every religious background. I hate it when people are racist and just mention Islamic Extremism. It's this closed mind that led to the war in Iraq.

There are extremists in all countries and of all cultures and background.

Just because I'm not a terrorist doesn't mean all the English Agnostics are not terrorists.

And this isn't having a go it's just saying don't lump people together. I tend to do it too much also

Posted by: Smikey2006 Nov 4 2008, 07:40 PM

Amen

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 4 2008, 07:42 PM

Heh, you just made me proud OC

Posted by: rokchik Nov 4 2008, 07:43 PM

When Mc Cain picked Palin, I took it as just political strategy... albeit a bad one. You had everyone talking about the historic impact of this election with an African American and a woman both vying for the possibility to become President. When Obama won over Hilary, the Mc Cain camp seemed to jump on the bandwagon for their VP candidate. This may be wrong but it's how I viewed it. And I agree, Palin really should have taken some public speaking classes before she joined the campaign... with Bush gone and if Mc Cain/Palin loses I don't know who SNL will make fun of...

EDIT: In all fairness though... it's a pretty big microscope to be put under. I'd never be able to stand the pressure and scrutney these candidates endure. No one even cared Canada had an election... the whole world cares about the US one.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 4 2008, 07:44 PM

I'm going to be watching the footage through the night I think Obama should win easily and it will be great for relations around the world I think and he will change things drastically and it could mess everything up OR it could solve everything. I think USA will benefit from giving him a chance and having him in office for 4 years.

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 07:44 PM

Picture a world without religion.

Posted by: misterj Nov 4 2008, 07:47 PM

i stood in line yesterday for 3 hours and voted for obama. im tired of being hated by the world against my will. i dont support our current president and i believe that since mccain voted with him over 90 percent of the time, than he will be the same. i would much rather my taxes pay for a better healthcare system that a ridiculous war. i love my country (as we all love our countries) but i hate the way so many americans think that the world revolves around us. how arrogant is it to constantly tell other countries that "we are the greatest country in the world". what if i constantly told other PEOPLE that i was the greatest PERSON in the world? not to mention the fact that many and more of the same injustices and human rights violations happen in countries OTHER than just the ones in the middle east, but since they have nothing to offer us (OIL) we have no interest. i think that its a joke that we are told so often that our wars are based on some sort of moral high ground (to borrow a phrase from Andrew), when thats just a way to trick everyone into supporting the greed that plagues human nature. we are all great people from great countries and i cant wait to live in an america that views the rest of the world as our equals, instead of someone to bully to get what we want. Maybe when we give that respect we will not be perceived as we are and have been even it this thread. there are MANY in the u.s. who share these opinions, and hopefully, the next president (whoever that may be) will hear them.

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 07:48 PM

Misterj....

Very well said.

I hope that happens someday.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 4 2008, 07:50 PM

Again though there are great religious figures that have done good for the world.

Posted by: fatb0t Nov 4 2008, 07:54 PM

+1 to Jer


Anyways, I have bad news for those who thing government is an easy thing to change. The US fore fathers specifically erected a system that is REALLY difficult to over haul, disassemble or change. Back during the Clinton years they constantly campaigned about changing the health care system, it was a pivotal piece of their campaign... Did they change the health care system substantially? No, infact it was almost a failure. Sweeping change in a government is not an over night thing. I am personally for Obama, I believe he believes in his message - which is good, I also share a lot of the same thoughts as he (though certainly not all). I'm just not so sure he realizes how difficult it is to make change in government.

I know for sure, regardless who will win - change won't be immediate.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 4 2008, 08:00 PM

She just showed herself not to be qualified. Being qualified does not mean experienced exactly. Some people with limited experience are qualified. Obama is only a 4 year senator, but the guy has been around great advisers, major players, for a long time. And he has been in the Senate, which is a long ways from 2 years mayor of a small town and two years in the Gov Mansion in Alaska. Seriously, her being in that office should put people in absolute terror, not because she is a bad person, but because she is totally out of her league, obviously.

And McCain showed his lack of judgment taking her. How a guy runs a campaign is telling. When they do stupid things in the campaign, expect that to occur when they are president, and have to make choices.



I stood in line for zero minutes, went right up to the booth. Lawrence is a great place to live. Got out and you know, the air just seemed great, the trees in the park were beautiful, just seemed like a new day coming.

I have a lot of confidence in Obama, he is well advised. That is key. And I hope for 60 Dems in the Senate, crossing my fingers.

For those of you that don't know, there is a peculiar element to Senate protocol. So long as you keep taking, you can delay a vote. It is called a fillibuster. You need 60 votes to end discussion and force a vote. That is why that why 60 votes would be a big deal. The american system is pretty screwy, but I think all the screwy things balance out, and make it a good political system in the long run.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 4 2008, 08:04 PM

From an outsiders view this doesn't even look close. Is this wrong or has Obama got a good lead certainly?

Posted by: fatb0t Nov 4 2008, 08:07 PM

Where I live, even though it's New York a notoriously Democratic state I'm hearing a lot of pull for McCain. I find during these elections, a lot of votes are 'lost' or 'invalidated' so we can only wait to find out...

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 4 2008, 08:09 PM

Most of the latest pols put them within the margin for error, but most of them put Obama slightly ahead, so he probably is marginally ahead in truth.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 4 2008, 09:20 PM

oh well garsh darn .....this darn tootin wahoo is askin a pretty tough question ....ill just have to get a rain check on that one and ill be sure to get back to you....okie doky. wink wink.


No, it is over. polls are pretty accurate today. This is not like it was in 1948. Should be an early night.



I don't think so. I realize some have said that, but that has been to generate interest. They have focused on a few polls, but overall, his lead is bigger than ever if anything. Except for the Fox News Poll, where McCain is coming back.

Here are the last polls, and the trend line, up all the way on average. Also keep in mind that while margin of error applies to individual polls, it pretty much approaches zero when you average a lot of them.

Posted by: Bedlam Nov 4 2008, 09:51 PM

Obama is an ultra-liberal socialist... A change is good, but this wouldn't be a change for the better.

Posted by: JVM Nov 4 2008, 10:00 PM

Voted this morning

Posted by: g-forcelover Nov 4 2008, 10:04 PM

George W. McCain I acually like Obama. McCain is good, but the only problem I have with him is Sarah Palin. Coming straight out with it, I think she is a total Idoit.

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 4 2008, 10:06 PM

thats not exactly what I was going for... It's the Islamic Extremists that attacked the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and I believe there were attacks on a few buses in the UK a few years ago (is this correct?) that is what we have to stop... right now there is somebody at the top of all these regimes that sits back and impresses Islamic extremism on kids, and these kids are raised to think that the western world is evil, and that they deserve to die...

thats what we have to stop. Thats what I meant by Islamic Extremism. ( I realize now that what I said earlier was poorly worded)

I recognize that there are extremist whackos in every social tree... but whens the last time anyone other than an islamic one took out 3 large buildings, and killed over 20,000 people....

yeah there are extremists everywhere... so I'll refer to it as Islamic Ultra-Extremism

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 4 2008, 10:10 PM

Yes, suicide bombs on buses and underground trains, some tens of people died if I remember right, then there was a failed copycat attack 2 weeks later.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 4 2008, 10:48 PM

Your number is wrong, it is just over 3,000. Most Muslims are pretty regular, I lived with one for a year in college, got to know his friends. They were funny. I had a Teacher in Grad School in Economics, an Egyptian. I took this course that was just over my head, the Math was really advanced. I tried hard, but I flunked the final. He gave me a B grade for the course. I asked him why. He said "What else could I do?".

The wacko guys are more a result of poverty, and humiliation over the last few centuries, anger and hatred towards those responsible for it, westerners. I don't consider it so much a religious thing, as much as it is made out to be.

Posted by: Disturbed21 Nov 4 2008, 11:31 PM

Polls close in 2 states in less than 5 minutes.


It begins

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 4 2008, 11:43 PM

Yeah, I realized just now that it was 20,000 people that were working in the towers at the time I think.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 4 2008, 11:53 PM

There is a ballot item in California I am watching. One that world set standards of humane treatment for farm animals. I feel strongly that a society can be judged by the way it treats it's animals. California often sets the trend for reform items, such as how they did with pollution controls decades ago.

BTW, the Humane Society never supported a presidential candidate in it's 150 or so year history, until now. They felt that were Palin to become president, she would set back decades the work they have done towards animal welfare and protection.

Posted by: Disturbed21 Nov 4 2008, 11:55 PM

The one ballot item here is an income tax ban

For people who want to watch the election...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032553/

Posted by: Guitar1969 Nov 5 2008, 12:17 AM

I voted via Absentee Ballet(I do every time) - It gives me time to really think about every choice and my wife and I debate a bit over the choices.

I wish this year there was a choice "None of the above" but Obama really scares me and he seems very wishy washy on the issues(speaks in very vague terms and what the public wants to hear). Not saying that McCain is much better, but at least he's accomplished some things as a senator.

bring back Ross Perot . . . . .

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 12:27 AM

he just can't tell you everything. just the way it is. i go back to 1940. FDR had every intention to get into that war, but he was not going to tell that to the public, he had to get elected first, the public was not going to fully understand. I don't blame them for that.

With McCain you get doing about nothing, sleeping till noon, and letting whoever is on the cabinet run things. Maybe his wife. The guy is old,he looks old. Come on. You hire guys like that to stand at the door at Walmart, not to run a country this large. Just a guy who always wanting to be president finally getting to live in the White House. I would be a disaster. And if he has to pass it on to Palin (1/3 chance statistically based on his age) you have wink wink dippy doo in charge. And that scares you less? You want her finger on that button, when they are not sure if that is a meteor shower, or a preemptive strike? That has happened a few times.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Nov 5 2008, 12:54 AM

It doesn't matter who is going to win the elections in USA, because that country is not governed by politicians. It is governed by money and large conglomerates. Both Obama and McCain are just puppet figures in that show that US is so famous for by now, and will be remembered in history books as a biggest show-off state of the 20th century. I don't mean to disrespect the american people, they are nice people, but unfortunately US media is so powerful, it does brain washing very successfuly. Why is it so important to watch the elections every day, the whole the, 24 hours per day, 7 days in a week? Like someone already stated, Canada did their elections, and nobody even noticed. Isn't that how it's supposed to be? Well yes, people have to be aware other stuff other than who is going to be the next 4 year puppet in the shiny white house. If only the american public could be a bit more aware of the problems the US is causing in the whole world, but unfortunately that is never going to happen because media is constantly turning the heads on the other way and dealing with elections for days now.
How bout some other important news that I'm sure american public would be interested in? like loosing young people in Iraq because of the biggest oil steal in history, selling weapons to foreign lands, causing wars and maintaining them for the sake of the profit, domestic labor so sever it turns into fanatic economic enslavement, deprivation of human right, building rocket shields and army bases all over the world, and buying out third world countries for small amount of dollars, only to force the people to go back and work - this time under the shiny american flag.
I'm afraid the US war machinery is so well "oiled" right now that in the next 20-30 years nothing is gonna stop it, not even the president in the shiny white house. Then we'll see how China starts to grow bigger then US and gradually replacing it as the biggest and most populated world domination block.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 12:57 AM

I think that's half the point Ivan. Many in USA know that is what people outside the US believe and I think they are voting Obama on the whole because they think that will change peoples opinions on the US. McCain is too similar. Barack Obama is a real change and I think that it will drastically improve people's opinions on the USA. It shows they aren't scared to try something new and just maybe it will work.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 01:00 AM

On three, all fellow citizens, lets pull out our revolvers and blow our brains out. Wait, first lets torture ourselves. Death is too good for us. Run a bath full of hot water, no cold. Jump in. Ok. Now take a knife, and cut off your fingers. Ok, kick something hard with your toe. Ok, now we have suffered enough, now take that gun and blow your brains out....1,2, 3

This is BoBo, fkalich's dog. How do you operate a can opener?

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 01:04 AM

I think it seems to me that Obama is losing at it stands? It seems like he is behind in votes in god knows how many states. Or am I wrong?

Posted by: Dejan Farkas Nov 5 2008, 01:04 AM

I agree Ivan, corporation capitalism is ruling the world right now, so it doesn't really matters from that point, the only thing a president can influence is foreign policy and relations.. so it should be a more good, or a less bad candidate

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Nov 5 2008, 01:05 AM

I'm aware that some US people are aware of the external US troubles, but also I'm aware that Obama cannot actually do the things that the people think he would do.

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 5 2008, 01:08 AM

Regarding what you said about brainwashing... No one in the world is safe from this... even you, Ivan, It doesnt matter where you got your information from... sombody distorted it.

One thing I have made a habit of recently is to always read facts/opinions and other subjective material with a very light foot so to speak... that is I do not immediately accept certain arguments if they seem invalid even the slightest... its really hard for me to explain, but in doing this it sort of guards against letting these large media outlets to hold sway over you.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 01:09 AM

You are wrong. You need more experience to understand this system, it is screwball by world standards.

This is BoBo, fkalich's dog. fkalich killed himself because he was an evil American.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 01:13 AM

What a cruel dog

It's impossible to understand lol.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Nov 5 2008, 01:16 AM

I'm not saying that I'm not being brainwashed every day. It's just that politicians and media in my country are on a much less sophisticated level than in US and other countries, because we are still ~50-100 years behind other developed world countries. SO in that sense, our media brain washing is actually some form of not yet developed western copycat style brain washing. Why would I wanna watch that? I can turn on the CNN and watch the real deal right there.

Also I really wanna digress at this point and say I don't have anything against any people or any nation in the world, and I can strongly and responsibly argue that.



on what specific information do you mean?

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 01:16 AM

Dejan, Obama is the most liberal man on capital hill. There are nearly 600 on the hill, congressmen and senators. He is radically different. He had to lay a bit low, to get elected, but there is quite a difference here.

McCain is actually a bit liberal, but Obama is an internationalist, and very much a liberal socialist. Being an internationalist is more of interest to people outside the country, he will not take unilateral military actions, will work with the international committee.

But he could not talk to much about that during the election, the Republicans would have used that against him with their propaganda apparatus.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 01:20 AM

I really can't go to bed It's getting to 1am here and I hope it doesn't go all through the night.

Posted by: swingline Nov 5 2008, 01:25 AM

There are actually more candidates but the other parties receive very few votes. (The Independents usually receiving the most, receive around 2.0% of the total votes.) The electors work as two things first they are a buffer between the mob (general public) and the election. Basically this is to avoid the person who would go up and state that if he is elected everybody would receive one million dollars. They are intelligent enough to look past this and help the country stay out of that crisis. The second reason is to help balance out the representation. This means that every place will receive equal representation by the president. If this wasn't evident the big cities, (LA, New York, Chicago, ect.) would recieve more representaion because a candidate needs to only win these cities along with a few more to win the popular vote. It helps small states recieve equal power and representation. Now here's another fact that people usally dont know, when you vote your not choosing who you want for president but your actually voting for which party gets to chooses the electors for that given state, and since every state has adopted the "winner-take-all" approach there is never a mixed amount of votes in a state. (Excluding a few times in which the elector voted againts the parties ideals.)
Hope this helped clear things up if not just say so.

Posted by: Guitar1969 Nov 5 2008, 01:26 AM

What frustrates me most is how people think that the President has all this power and can do whatever he/she wants, but that's just not the case in the way our government is structured(sytem of checks and balances) Now I know Bush has made some mistakes, but it is hilarious how some people heap ALL the blame on him(like Iraq), when there are three branches to our government that all have to be in agreement for action to be taken. At least with a Republican president, we have the democratic congress who keeps things in check. If Obama wins, then we have a democratic congress, and democratic president(Too much power) - All bets are off.

As a businessowner, I might as well close my doors now - Obama thinks that taxing businesses more(over $250k which is pretty much every business I know) and giving to the less fortunate is the answer(Entitlement). What he doesn't seem to understand, is if businesses get hammered too much, they aren't going to have an incentive to try and grow, which means less jobs for everybody; if he wants to stuimulate the economy, provide tax breaks for businesses and watch how it trickles down to the lower class(Unless the lower class rather collect government handouts than to actually work - which seems to be the case in certain situations)

I know there are valid points to both sides, but unfortuantely in this election our choices are rather limited.

At least we will still have GMC.

Now the disclaimer!!! -IMHO

Posted by: Ajmurrell Nov 5 2008, 01:27 AM

I'm tracking the news on BBC 1, and online through CNN and FOX (just for fun )

Fox have so far given West Virginia to the republicans, then taken it back, then given it back, then taken it away, and have now given it back! Not sure if its glitchy script in the site, but it does strengthen my thoughts about FOX!

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 5 2008, 01:29 AM

any information that is related to opinion. Any media outlet can put a positive (or negative) spin on any idea or opinion, thus distorting it.

its really hard for me to explain, because I have never been good at explaining my thoughts to others... I am a very intricate guy.

bottom line is... it is IMPOSSIBLE to know exactly what goes on in the world unless you are there.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Nov 5 2008, 01:31 AM

I guess you're right on that.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 01:33 AM

Pennsylvania and new hampshire to Obama. Maybe he is going to win

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 01:34 AM

He just took Pennsylvania. I say they call it in the next half hour.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Nov 5 2008, 01:35 AM

I happen to be on one of those places actually. US has build the largest military base in south eastern Europe on Serbia territory, disintegrating the country, and took away this part of the territory. This is just a minor example actually, because currently, the management of this trivial issue is left to third level officials in congress, while of course the big shots are doing Iraq. And I don't think I have to actually be in Iraq to know what is going on there..

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 01:35 AM

Infact he's taking everything lol it seems

Posted by: swingline Nov 5 2008, 01:37 AM

Yes and no, Bush expanded the president's power greatly and Cheney also way overstepped his boundaries. The difference here is that for some time Bush had a congress in which the majority party in both houses were Republican and the Democrats had very weak calendar and committee entanglements. Along with this the whip had become increasingly moderate which was no help. Bush had blank check powers and abused them. Here both Obama and Biden have expericenced the Senate and can tell exactly what is going on. (Bush had no clue on how the Legislative Branch worked.) This crisis calls for a stronger force than a powerless president. We need a mini FDR you might say. But yes the president will always be a scapegoat because its alot easier to point one finger than nearly 300.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 01:38 AM

Penn was the one big contested state. There are 6 in the east. McCain had to take 5 of them to have a chance. Now he would have to take all the last 5. He might take one.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 01:39 AM

I guess if he takes Florida now or Ohio or another big one then that is it?

Posted by: Ajmurrell Nov 5 2008, 01:44 AM

Even then you have some bias, two people could view the same event in extremely different ways, even though they witnessed it first hand, as a primary source.

World events are so complicated, and very difficult to come to an educated and unbiased statement (not opinion) and I feel that far too many people, on the internet more than anywhere else especially, voice their opinions as statements and ignore any emotional bias they may have compared to the next person.

In MY opinion

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 01:51 AM

Yeah, probably Fl will be first, it is going his way, the polls were right on. A lot of the states are sure things for one or the other, so predictable.



I base my views on a very solid background in American, European, and World history, from that a basic understanding of man's institutions, how they work, what makes them tick. I do agree with what most have said, that generally the choice won't matter too much. But sometimes it does, this is one of those times.

Posted by: Ajmurrell Nov 5 2008, 01:55 AM

I genuinely didn't mean to point what I said at you, just to be clear You made a good point, and just wanted to add to it.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Nov 5 2008, 02:15 AM

Ok guys here is my take on this...


I lived in USA from 2001 all the way to 2008 with 2 years break in between when I was studying in Greece and playing in Serbia.

As country it has great possibilities. Everything is there for grabs. You have ability to become anybody you want. In that sense, usa is great.
In sense of politics - it ain't worth at all. Domestic politics and things they serve to their general public is totally different then their foreign politics.


Here is the problem with that country that will never be resolved.
Average american cares about having nice house, good car, watching nfl and having financial sources to have fun every day. Average american doesn't travel the world, he/she doesn't know any history nor geography nor foreign language , for average american usa is all there is on this planet and universe.
Having this kind of mindset in conjuction with the worst media brain washing machinery , you get what you get today. Country where 9/11 happens and there are still people believing that was act of terrorism and some dude named Bin Laden who was trained by same american administration. Wars everywhere around the world for interest. Is it oil , drugs , prostitution or just strategic position so they can later complete their world war 3 plan - you decide.

The way USA is run is very bad and majority of people I have meet hanged out been friends with are very limited and restricted in all the areas I mentioned. Of course there are exceptions but majority doesn't care about rest of the world , they just care for themselves and do whatever us administartion tells them to do.

Having all this in mind, no single president can change usa and the way its run.
People are the only ones who can do that. They can either protest non stop and request answers , accept the life as it is there or just leave that country - which I did in April 2008 and never looked back ever since. Sure I miss some things in USA like Boston Berklee great musicians and friends, girls that I met and had good time and great gigs I went to , but I just don't fit in that arrogant surrounding where people are this is usa everybody should fit our standards.

Again , obama mccain wouldn't change a single thing.

People in usa dont have power nor will to do anything. Being brainwashed by the media made them that way.
I feel sorry for them but if they like the way they are let them live who cares.

I personally don't care who will win. The evil side will win for my country no matter what.

Posted by: ace_frehely Nov 5 2008, 02:25 AM

My dads says..Mcain has fought for his country and he knows how hard it is in Irak...What he diddnt know is that Mcain did war crimes and killed alot of inicent people..

It gets annoying when i watch those commercials when they threaten eachother..especially republicans do it more..

Posted by: leedbreak Nov 5 2008, 02:44 AM

Dang, this poll looks alot like my TV sceen right now. Go figure

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 03:00 AM

Ohio went Obama, the fat lady has sung.

But is does not matter, because America is the great Satan, and I should kill myself, as I promised earlier. Except my pets complained because only I can operate a can opener.

Posted by: black and white Nov 5 2008, 03:01 AM

Andrew, I agree with your point about healthcare.....I was in Europe for the past year, and although all had access to healthcare, it was not great care. Not even good. And getting through the system was almost impossible if you needed a specialist or advanced care.

McCain here.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 03:02 AM

He will have to go for Presidency in the Canary Islands, because he is toast here.

Posted by: The Spartan Nov 5 2008, 03:29 AM

Thank you.
I'm Muslim myself and I find it EXTREMLY offensive when the word "Muslim",to the Western World, is ALWAYS related to "terrorist" or "potential terrorist" it's just plain DUMB and STUPID.
And I agree 100% with OC EVERY country and culture has extremists not just Muslims. Give us a break will you?
We KNOW most Americans hate us. YOU know most Americans hate us and that's fine but please respect our relegion
as we respect yours.



Absolutely true. Thank you for clearing that up.
I wish all the western world people understood that as clearly as you do.

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Nov 5 2008, 03:45 AM

I must say I do respect your religion. I dont agree with it, ( We all have different faiths) but I respect all of you for who you are. Not Muslims, but People. I can only imagine how bad it is to have everyone constantly stereotype your faith and relate it to terrorism on top of that because things that were done by a small majority of the Muslim Community.


On another note:


I feel betrayed.... even the polls on Fox News say Obama!

*Sigh*

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 03:47 AM

I don't know anyone like that, who thinks like that. I don't know where you get that from, but you don't understand the average American if that is your perception of us.

Posted by: The Spartan Nov 5 2008, 03:53 AM

Maybe it's not correct. But that's how everyone I know thinks of Americans. Even my friends from european countries think the same way.
Or maybe it's just you and the people you know are on of the "enlightened" ones and acutally know what's going on in the real world,outside the USA.
Although I had more than 5 friends who went to study in the USA and all of them said that they were treated differently from Non-Muslim people but if you say it's not true then I'm glad about it.
I've been to most countries all over the world except to the USA and I don't want to go there. I'm a man with high self-respect and worth. why would I go to a country that there is a possibility people would treat me differently from other people just because of my relegion?
Excuse me if I'm being extremly sterotypical but as I have said everyone I know went to the USA,after 9/11, said the same thing.
Went a little bit off topic there but I just wanted to clarify why I said those things.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 04:04 AM

It goes against the grain of most American's to discriminate against a person because of race color or creed. But there are misunderstandings. And stereotypes coming from both directions. I assure you that most Americans strongly do not want to see themselves as bigots, we would feel humiliated. I think most people in the world are really like that, if you get to know them.

Posted by: Déjà vu Nov 5 2008, 04:25 AM

I voted Obama . Now, back to the "real" election... Thank you for this poll Fkalich!

Posted by: Smikey2006 Nov 5 2008, 04:26 AM

your ability to use logic and thumbs make you almost a god to them.. unfortunately.. your a god they actually need in a more than psychological way.

Looks like Obamas gunna get it

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 5 2008, 04:30 AM

I would have no problem believing you, as a Muslim, came to America right after the events of 9/11, and you claimed to be treated differently... things were really tense back then... but I know nobody today that would act differently towards anybody of any race/ethnicity

oh and about going off-topic... this whole thread has been off-topic

but very enlightening non-the-less.

Posted by: black and white Nov 5 2008, 04:31 AM

Not in Kanas

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 5 2008, 04:34 AM

By the ABC just declared Obama the winner!

well now that this is over surely this thread is done

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 04:44 AM

I'm happy with the result but it was quite obvious that it would end like this.

Bed Time as it is 4.15am here. Good night all I have to get up for work in 4 hours

Posted by: USAMAN Nov 5 2008, 05:31 AM

Congratulations all Americans...you are now offically rich. Your new tax bracket will reflect that.
Im sure the new health care program will be run as efficiently as social security has. I am truely grateful for more government control of all aspects of my life here.
I can wait for them to start reintrepreting the constitution.,,beginning with the second ammendment...that one that is suppose to protect us from government.

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country."





--Adolf Hitler

good luck !

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 5 2008, 05:50 AM

sooooo did you vote for McCain?

oh and by the way President-elect Obama supports the second amendment (even though I don't)

and I'm not sure what that quote from Hitler is supposed to mean

Posted by: FrankW Nov 5 2008, 05:54 AM

I share your pain, brother. I have to say that I have never seen more ignorant, biased postings than on this particular thread. I tried. I'm embarrassed to be an American right now.

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 5 2008, 05:58 AM

And why are you embarrassed to be an American?

Posted by: FrankW Nov 5 2008, 06:25 AM

Because, in my opinion, Obama won because of a biased media. The average voter didn't bother, or was too ignorant and lazy to, research the outcome of what a democratic majority in the senate and congress, run by ultra liberals Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, would do to our country.

Our government is controlled by a system of checks and balances, and with an ultra liberal president like Obama, presiding over the congress and senate I just mentioned, we're in for a world of hurt. The American voters are saps for falling for the eloquent speech of Obama. Words mean nothing. We have been weakened, and I blame the voters for a biased slant...97% of all blacks voted for Obama...that's about race and race only.

All the enemies of the United States have prayed that Obama would win. Well, now he has, and we have nobody but ourselves to blame. USAMAN got it right regarding our taxes and increase in government control. And the bad guys are loving this regardless of what some of you think about the USA.

Don't forget that terrorism is a worldwide epidemic, and many countries have suffered attacks from radical extremists, not all Muslims, Spartan. The US leads the fight against terrorism, and the US is always the first to respond to help out a country under stress. We spend more charitable dollars to aid other countries than all the other countries in the UN combined. So, before you decide to carry on about how bloodthirsty we are, get your facts straight.

If the bloodthirsty US weren't around during WWII, things would be alot different wouldn't they?

Posted by: midnight Nov 5 2008, 06:36 AM

Obama won because of people, like me, that did do the research and voted based on what they thought best for this country and the rest of the world.

Wow.

Posted by: FrankW Nov 5 2008, 06:48 AM

You don't get it. It's not about what's best for the rest of the world...it's about what's best for the people that live in the US. The rest of the world isn't going to pay our taxes or look to our national defense, they couldn't care less.

Many countries want to see us fail for no other reason than envy and jealousy. Like I said, we do more than any other country to foster democracy and world peace. But, because we're percieved as such a threat...we're the bad guys to many. The rest of the world benefits from a strong USA, and they depend on it.

Posted by: midnight Nov 5 2008, 07:02 AM

"Best for this country and the rest of the world".

I admire your passion though.

Thank goodness this freakin' election is over. Lets all take a breath and see what happens.

Posted by: FrankW Nov 5 2008, 07:09 AM

That's just a slogan, Midnight. I guess we'll see what happens...

Posted by: Bondy Nov 5 2008, 07:54 AM

Well Done America for making the right choice!!

Posted by: audiopaal Nov 5 2008, 08:01 AM

Congratulations America

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 5 2008, 08:37 AM

there are ssssssooooooooooo many people that would disagree with you... well actually thats not true... but the people that do disagree... are very outspoken about it not directed at anyone here... it's just that a bunch of my friends are really mad about the outcome of the election

Posted by: -Zion- Nov 5 2008, 09:14 AM

I agree with you there.. but i am affraid this is what happens when the guys responsible do the things they do "in the name of christ/allah/buddah" or whatever.. It's the minority that ruins it for the majority..

Oftentimes when we hear about attacks around the world, we hear sympathizing(spelling?) people yelling "Allahu Akbar".. I agree with you that it's the very minority.. the extremists who are doing this, but doing so in the name of their God is bad for everybody who worship this God.

Now, this could also be a result of media focussing too much on this, that the message of "God made me do it.. God told me to do it" is the message that comes across..

I dont know much about religions in general, but i sincerely doubt that any God would want you to do such things for them.

Like was mentioned earlier.. the people do this because they have been oppressed, humiliated and have had their honor taken away from them, but please dont tell the rest of the world that it is their Gods will, because i sincerely doubt that..

With that said i just want to say that every religion has it's own share of extremists, and they are all in some way or another "dangerous".

---- on topic ----
I am so naive that i believe the new president Obama will do everything he can to make this world a better place to live, while "solving" the inner problems of the country.

Posted by: Noangels Nov 5 2008, 09:34 AM

Just want to say I follow no religion,worship no flags and I will stand shoulder to shoulder with most muslims over the way they are treated and bullied by the god squad money lovers who clearly have been brainwashed into believing that Jews returning to their old stomping ground will mean rapture comes and sends them all to heaven.

I dont think Obama being elected has done anything but gloss over world politics,at its roots the money making machine will still have bases all round the world

If america spent less on its bloated war machine and invested that back into its own country,all my american friends would live a lot better!Its a great country that is tarnished by its never ending wars and coups being brought to other countries.

I just feel that Obama wont change a thing as he realy doesnt have the power to do so.If he realy wants to change things he should invite the Iranian President over and have a friendly chat with him.He should also shut down Fox news!lol

He should also put Bush on trial for war crimes,if he does that then we can get the ball rolling and get Blair in the court too:)

ohh and LOL at all the sour losers here,do you want some cheese with your Whine Realy love to see that old ww2 we saved you mantra come back once again To use an american expression
Cry me a river,build me a bridge and get over it!

Posted by: Moon Boots Nov 5 2008, 09:58 AM

It's a sad day when a man can be elected purely on the basis of his colour

I mean, he's mixed race and yet he's `black`. Is there something wrong with being white or mixed race?
I wonder if he would have got 97% of the black vote if he labelled himself as white?

Equal rights is not about a black man getting into the white house, it's about no one being interested in the colour of the man in the white house, and this election has shown that skin colour is still an extremely import issue to americans in the 21st century

Posted by: Tolek Nov 5 2008, 10:14 AM

Correct. I am wondering how long he will be alive... There have been some attacks against Obama (if I remember right)...

Posted by: Muris Varajic Nov 5 2008, 10:49 AM

Despite everything and all arguing we've been having here
I must say that I'm pleased to hear Obama is a new USA president.
I truly hope that better days are coming for USA and the rest of the world.

Posted by: mjsteps Nov 5 2008, 10:59 AM

How ironic that America has elected a party whose approval rating in congress is lower than George Bushs.

As I had said we are witnessing unprecidented history, times have changed, people change,values change.

Now lets see if Obama is the man he says he is ? or will he bow to the left wing liberals who run the roost in the congress.

Posted by: MickeM Nov 5 2008, 11:01 AM

Being 50% black and 50% white he could call himself either but black has worked for him appearantly. Also when Clinton was elected people cried for change, that was to my understanding an even stronger need at this electing with the economy in a slope. With either Hilary or Obama "change" was inevitable, a woman or a black man. Talk about change!
I watched a documentary stating just that, and it was an objective one, where people said "I want a black president" and a young first time electors had everything clear in her mind saying "I'm voting for Obama! Why? I don't know, my sister told me to". So it's been a very populistic election and Obama had the upper hand for a couple of reasons. One mentioned above and the other is that he's far far far from being Bush (though they are related). People saw too much of a risk with McCain spite he avoided as much as possible to be compared with Bush. Didn't work out well.

I saw someone earlier in this thread say that "People voted Obama because they studied the facts, liked what they learned and made a dessicion". I can't agree on that. There's a group that will always stick with their party and then there's electors that have no clue about what their personal politic stand is. Like here people can vote for the left wing one year because they speak of 6 hour work days and next election they vote for the right wing since they promise lower taxes. No clue what so ever of the fundamentals of the politics but they pick something they heard from friends or was fed by media that sounded good in their ears - mmmm 6 hours work, how nice, and a bag of chips, choose to belive it instead of investigating the facts and the rest of the party program and just go for it. Thinking for oneself is so craving and it's just easier to pick something someone else already decided for and act like a shadow.
Obama, a good looking fit man not in his 70's. If he'd been a 70 year old slob with dreadlocks but with the same politic stand would anyone have voted for him? Looking fit and being black and having a huge smile earned quite a bit of plus on his account while McCain was presented with less flattering pictures in the media here and painted out as the bad guy. The picture presented counts! many people will not even care to bother but vote for the one looking most descent. So Obama should also recall to send a boquet of flowres to tv stations and newspapers because they helped, at least that's the picture I've got from media here in Sweden.

Also in that documentary there was this lady that switch political party when the gas price was raised. She and her husband now were forced to go in the same car to work instead of separate cars like they used to. And they both worked in the same store, their own firm. I mean, come on, she'd probably switch religion if hinduism came with free shiny fruit drop caramels.
Which brings me to this. I'm not convinced Obama was the right choise, and when stating that I'm not sure McCain would have been either. Yet again, when will USA dare to take the lead in environmental questions? Noone would ever dare to keep environment as top priority in their campaign agenda since that would scare voters away, a complete show stopper. What a dead lock for world's health that is huh? What american president will dare to double the price of gas to force people to driver smaller cars and drive less? Who will dare to sign the Koyoto protocol that Bush declined because "China and India hasn't signed and they pollute more than us"?
I do hope Obama will step up and make a few uncomfortable decisions that will probably be costly for the population and probably for his popularity but neccessary for the world. With his charm and ability to convince he could pull it off I think.
If I could have seen Al Gore as president he'd be a teriffic representative for the health of the US and also the world and he'd presented change for the better already back in 2000 if things had worked well. Change, what's being requested now.
So... Al Gore for president!! But hoping Obama will do the unexpected and surprise at least me positively.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 11:02 AM

I got in late to work today It's 10.30am here now and I'm so tired but so glad that USA made the right choice. Obama I think will sort out USA problems and will also be great for worldwide relations. For those that say he got voted in for the colour of skin that is ridiculous as just as many that voted for him because he was black didn't vote for him because he was black. There are still many around the world and in America that still don't think the country is ready for a black president so it evens itself out.

If McCain hadn't just been a Bush 2.0 and used negative politics against Obama he may have done better.

This is a great day for USA and other countries round the globe. Finally the right man has been voted into power. A man that can change how things are. Whether he will be able to manage it we will soon see but I believe he will.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Nov 5 2008, 11:07 AM

Oh yeah,we almost forgot about good old Al!!

Posted by: Moon Boots Nov 5 2008, 11:07 AM

Explain to me right now why 97% of black americans voted for him. White americans voted http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/us_elections_2008/7709852.stm.


MickeM has hit the nail on the head.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 11:12 AM

Al Gore would have been an awful president. Maybe not as bad as Bush but he is the biggest hypocrite alive.

People were more understanding of what Obama could offer than you think. McCain was not even slightly the wrong choice. If America wanted their country to go completely down the pan then McCain would have been the right choice.

McCain had no policies he just kept trying to take Obama down a peg or two with negative politics. Thankfully the people of America saw through his ridiculoud accusations.

I'm pretty certain that most of the UK are very happy with this result. Maybe now we can finally get our army out of Iraq.


Black Americans get a vote my friend. Please stop being so racist. Basically you're saying if Black people didn't get a vote then he wouldn't have won. That is incredibly racist. Black people get the vote. They love Obama and what he stands for and therefore they chose him. That's the reason for it and he has won in loads of states with lower black populations so your opinion doesn't count.

He won nearly 150 more points didn't he? That isn't a slight win. And it isn't all down to Black Americans.

Plus he had to get Afro-Americans to vote which many were first time voters. To be able to get the turn out he did should be praised in itself. Isn't bringing America together what this is all about? Everybody deserves a voice and everybody a vote or do you not believe in freedom of choice?

Posted by: mjsteps Nov 5 2008, 11:12 AM

.

This is a great day for USA and other countries round the globe. Finally the right man has been voted into power. A man that can change how things are. Whether he will be able to manage it we will soon see but I believe he will.

How will the election of Obama be great for the rest of the world? I see this idea or thought frequently but just do not understand. He is clueless on forgein policy and Joe Biden is even worse. So how could this "benefit" the rest of the world?
Is the rest of the "world" is looking to this man for something? Help me to understand. If

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 11:20 AM

The rest of the world see it as America being able to choose a black president and being able to have freedom of choice although with only 2 major parties this isn't fully realised. Also McCain round the globe is seen like a Bush Mark 2.0. In Europe especially the number of people against the war in Iraq is huge. We hate the politicians who ignored us and a lot of us hate the armies involved. If they get withdrawn from Iraq then maybe we can respect them again where all respect has been lost. I think most European countries wanted Obama to win. And know it isn't to see a weak America it is to see an America that can actually get on with other countries rather than wanting to destroy them all.


Also it says that the Democrats won more of the white vote than Kerry did in 2004. The margin was decreased so that shows that many white voters switched to Democrat.

Posted by: MickeM Nov 5 2008, 11:20 AM

Bush Sr was the first release, Bush Jr was infact version 2.0

And don't underestimate the psycological effects of appearance. With the same politics if Obama had stated to be muslim though it wouldn't affect his work what so ever that would have worked against him. If he had stated being homosexual that could have gone either way, probably downhills with the conservative voters but positively recieved as a factor when reaching for "change". But people would have debated that matter as - We can't have a homosexual president; or - Great, this is fresh to me, I'm voting for Obama.

I think psychology played a huge part. Taking in concideration the reseccion and the Bush years which played a big part here. Not so much McCain's fault and you said it yourself, he's a Bush 2.0. You didn't want Bush so you went for Obama, did you concider McCain's politics at all when deselecting him?
Maybe you did but I think many didn't. Many wanted change and went as far from Bush as possible. Others just wanted a black president. Some went into the politic stands of each candidate and choose what they thought was the better candidate, well read up on facts and really into the politics. Their votes should count really.

Posted by: Moon Boots Nov 5 2008, 11:22 AM

How dare you call me racist. You have totally missed the point and pulled a pathetic race card. My point is that many of these black americans were voting based on colour (do you honestly think that 97% of black voters were voting purely on Obama's policies????? the margin is clearly too huge for that to be possible). I didn't say that these people shouldn't have a vote (why are you putting that sort of bilge into my mouth!?!?!) I suggested that they were voting because they felt an association to Obama's colour, which is true in many cases.

Personal insults are not encouraged on this board. I was making a statistical point and to call me racist makes you appear very simple minded indeed. You owe me an apology.

Posted by: MickeM Nov 5 2008, 11:24 AM

In fact ALL countries in Europe except for Georgia were pro Obama.
Or maybe that was all countries in the world even.. I think there was one more that was if not pro McCain at least only a narrow win for Obama.


Stay cool ppl! Respect and manners goes here. Don't make it personal

Posted by: Moon Boots Nov 5 2008, 11:26 AM

Seriously. I've never been called a racist before and quite frankly I'm still extremely shocked by it

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 11:27 AM

It's not a point though. Obama had to get those votes. Many of those votes came from first time voters that he had to convince that it was worth a vote and that he can help them with his policies. If Hilary had got into power more women would have voted for her than John McCain. It's how things work. Obama did all he had to. He narrowed the white percentage difference that Bush had in 2004, he got more young voters to vote and for him over double what McCain got from young voters and he won every age group apart from the over 65's. McCain had ex army and servicemen vote for him over Obama and more white voters voted for him. You don't complain at that. I don't get your point and it comes across as racist to me. Surely the black voters of American have the right to vote for Obama? You can't say it should be discounted because 97% voted for him. It could be 97% voted but only 40% of Black Americans actually voted at all. You just don't know.

If it was a narrow victory then you could say this affected things but Obama won by a huge margin. A landslide margin. It wasn't even a contest.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Nov 5 2008, 11:28 AM

No matter we like it or not, black people voted for Obama because he was black, no other characteristic really counted ( in many not all cases of course, but still ).. Still if they didn't the outcome would be most probably the same. MickeyM wrote exactly what made him the president. I don't understand why so many people say that he is a good choice. For me his a person that was in a KGB sponsored youth organisation that has many connections to black racists as well. And I don't care that he "cut" those relations for more votes in the campaign. Anyway it just doesn't matter as he is just a puppet of the people that gave him enough money to win this elections. Without their support he wouldn't have more than few thousand votes.

When it comes to environment, there are many opinions that the global warming has very little to do with our economy, the CO2 emitted by humans to the atmosphere isn't even 1% of the whole world emitting. It's like greenpeace - never acted in China, even though it hurts our planet the most - why? One could say that because China gives cash to Greenpeace to slow down economies of other countries. We can only hope that Obama has more world-friendly sponsors than Gorge W. Bush had, maybe it is in their interest to sell more chips instead of waging wars.

Posted by: MickeM Nov 5 2008, 11:30 AM

How come you say that, because of that he values the environment and medical care?

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 11:33 AM

Yes and he has how many cars and houses and how much does he fly on airlines between everywhere? If you checked out his carbon footprint it'd be a massive impact for one person. That makes him a hypocrite. It's like Bono saying he cares about the environment and paying 10,000 pound to have his hat flown in first class to him. That is hypocritical. Don'y you agree?

Posted by: Muris Varajic Nov 5 2008, 11:37 AM

That comes with power,every high level politician or star is acting like that,more or less.
Running a country is something else to,public matter.

Posted by: MickeM Nov 5 2008, 11:37 AM

Don't worry, it's not racism to discuss how votes were divided between races. As little as it is sexism to discuss how votes were divided between men and women.

Posted by: Moon Boots Nov 5 2008, 11:43 AM

Okay then, you've clearly missed my point. I'll put it down to lack of sleep.

Let me rephrase:

Obama got ~ 100% of black votes
Obama got ~ 50% of white votes

The disparity between these numbers is extremely large and therefore votes were influenced by race. Surely you agree? How you can call me racist for this is truely a mystery - I'm still waiting for an apology.

I didn't say that the white votes weren't influenced either.

One more thing - where did I say that I support McCain? I was merely commmenting that votes are effected by the race of the candidates. Nothing more!!!



Thanks MickeM, that is exactly what I'm trying to explain to him.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Nov 5 2008, 11:46 AM

Exactly. Yet I wonder how many times we will hear that when someone will criticise Obama, he will be called a racist
My cousin is in a university degree that is lectured in English and there are two black people in the group ( whole group is only 7 people but that isn't the case ). One teacher unabled them passing to another year, because they didn't learn his topics. He was than fired ( the teacher ) because he was called racist. It doesn't matter that he was right...

Posted by: MickeM Nov 5 2008, 11:46 AM

Al Gore's time is of value. If he can make it from one town to another in 2 hours by plane instead of 5 hours by train that's worth something. We have to accept that everybodys time isn't valued the same, for example being the president of the USA forces you have to be effective and plan your time to make the most of it. If Al Gore takes a plane rather than the train there's still a huge winning on the environment because of what he does with the time gained.
Sure, that would in fact spare the environment but probably lots of deals will go down the drain because of lack of time if you sum it all up during a years time, which in turn would have a negative effect in the long run.

I think it's not even a valid discussion - as appears also here regarding our politicians - that they should take the train, the tube or a bicycle rather than a cab or a plane. For people in leading positions time is extemely important, we can't force them to be like "us" because "they should live as they learn or they are hypocrits". That's narrow sighted.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 11:57 AM

He also won a large proportion of hispanic votes. I don't get your point. He deserved to win because he got those votes. It doesn't matter if 97% voted for him. Like I said it may have been the case that only 40% of black people eligible to vote actually voted. The facts are that Obama won by an absolutely huge margin and in some places overturned 20% leads for the republicans in the last election. He did a great job. I looked into all the policies and what they were offering and to me Obama was the riskiest by far but if he keeps his word I believe it will make a better America.

I'm afraid I don't apologise to anybody. I'm a psychologist and can usually pick up on meaning very well. Well psychologist and engineer If it annoyed or offended you then that wasn't what I was trying to achieve.

Posted by: Moon Boots Nov 5 2008, 12:19 PM

You believe that the candidate with the most votes deserves to win? Think about that for a second. Did Hitler deserve to win his election?
This is such a terribly flawed argument that I honestly don't know what to say to this.

If it annoyed or offended me? Oh no, I'm perfectly fine with being called a racist

As others in this thread have agreed, my posts where not racist at all. And, to be honest, if I'm offended by anything I'm offended by people who take away other people's right to voice their views by shouting "RACIST!!!!!" at them.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 12:40 PM

In a democratic system the person with the most votes deserves to win. But also Obama won the popular vote and the American system of votes by a huge amount.

And I'm always annoyed by people shouting that people are being racist but with your text alone and having no sign of manner of talking or the context your post looked like it was being racist saying that black people voted for Obama but this in text can be seen to suggest that black people shouldn't be allowed to vote in huge amounts for him.

Hopefully I got the context of your text wrong and that isn't the case. Ad

Posted by: Moon Boots Nov 5 2008, 12:51 PM

I believe that the best candidate deserves to win - not the one with the most votes



Friends again?

Posted by: MickeM Nov 5 2008, 12:55 PM

I'm glad to see you think Al Gore deserved to win in 2000



Now I'm confused. Trust me, that couldn't be interpreted at all from reading the text.
Maybe this can be left behind us. Let's instead see what happens with Obama in the oval office?


I think we'll see some change after all if he ties the knot together. Raised gas price and environmental taxes will be felt aswell as industries increased expenses for polluting but with lowered income tax that could even it out. If gas price is part of the environmental tax or if it's just for industries. Maybe someone can enlighten me?

As a foreigner I'm pleased that he will take his politics outside the borders of the USA and he's dropping Bush's "for or against" stand.

I'll be most positive when and if the environmental work shows effect. I think there's a lot to gain there. Also the healt care program should have a humanitary effect, gladdens me that kids in particular gets the mandatory insurance.

Overall Obama seem like a liberal leader. I'm fairly optimistic. Not jumping yet but I might if good things start to happen.
Many plans, like withdrawing from Iraq has a date set so it'll be easy to measure the degree of success.

Please add!

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 01:05 PM

Yeah but different people will have a different best candidate. A democratic way is the fairest way in my opinion.You could normalise weird results but I don't think that would help. If you had polled the world on the leader of America I think Obama would have won by a ridiculously huge margin. I think Americans want to give Obama a chance to deliver on his promises and he will have 4 years. If he doesn't start working on them in that time he will be gone but it's worth giving him a chance.

And yeah friends again. I don't have enemies anyway Well apart from guitarists that can play better than me Which is half the globe.

I think normalising the black voters would still have left Obama winning as McCain only appealed to over 65 White Males and he lost the hispanic vote which Bush got a high proportion of I believe. So there were others areas that caused McCain to lose. I don't see why some Americans are so against Obama. He won by a huge margin which shows he deserved it. It's not as if he won by a margin of 5 or whatever it was with Bush and Al Gore.


There is a huge difference between the UK democratic system and US one though. The popular vote didn't win that year because of the American system but that is what I'm getting at Obama won the popular vote by 5% and the american electorate college what not by about 180 points. That is a no contest.


Personally I hope he pulls out of Iraq by a certain date and like you said that can be easily measured. I think the health system in America does need to be revised but not to the state of the UK system where we have to wait a lifetime for any operations.

I also think he should ban firearms in small waves across the country and slowly rather than all at once as it could create chaos but I think it should be done.

Most importantly he needs to sort out the economy. He needs to be a huge influence in that area. The people high up in banks that failed need to be got rid of and replaced. No more crazy bonuses for bank managers that fall behind strict figures.

A lot needs to be changed. The whole world's view of America needs to be changed.

Posted by: MickeM Nov 5 2008, 01:07 PM

Yeah Obama won it fair and square and probably for the better for all of us.
Al Gore won the populatiry vote but there was a draw in elector votes while.. oh I don't recall exactly but Bush claimed the win after a recount of Florida by some 500 votes favor. Court judged towards Bush's and Al pled defeat while the next recount showed Al Gore as winner but it had already been settled by then.
Not so fair play surely, we can not even know one percent of the game beind the scenes.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 01:15 PM

That was definitely an election that was a dodgy one where people had every right to complain. When it comes down to voting miscounts and total mess ups in some states then that is where it isn't fair.

Posted by: Smikey2006 Nov 5 2008, 01:31 PM

Obama takes it by a landslide

Posted by: USAMAN Nov 5 2008, 01:38 PM

He doesnt have to bow to them ...He is one of them,



Im not sure about the black vote / white vote thing....However I know he got 100% of the lazy welfare vote.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 02:27 PM

Hopefully we can all agree that it is good to see the back of Bush. Here are some of his awful quotes. The one in bold being my favourite

20. "Those who enter the country illegally violate the law." - Nov. 28, 2005

19. "We don't believe in planners and deciders making the decisions on behalf of Americans." - Sept. 6, 2000

18. "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." - Dec. 19, 2000

17. "Well, I think if you say you're going to do something and don't do it, that's trustworthiness." - Aug. 30, 2000

16. "I think we agree, the past is over." - May 10, 2000

15. "I understand small business growth. I was one." - Feb. 19, 2000

14. "This foreign policy stuff is a little frustrating." - April 23, 2002

13. "I want everybody to hear loud and clear that I'm going to be the president of everybody." - Jan. 18, 2001

12. "One of the great things about books is sometimes there are some fantastic pictures." - Jan. 3, 2000

11. "I was proud the other day when both Republicans and Democrats stood with me in the Rose Garden to announce their support for a clear statement of purpose: you disarm, or we will." - Oct. 5, 2002

10. "I just want you to know that when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace." - June 18, 2002

9. "I'm honored to shake the hand of a brave Iraqi citizen who had his hand cut off by Saddam Hussein." - May 25, 2004

8. "I firmly believe the death tax is good for people from all walks of life all throughout our society." - Aug. 13, 2002

7. "There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me - you can't get fooled again." - Sept. 17, 2002

6. "The truth of that matter is, if you listen carefully, Saddam would still be in power if he were the president of the United States, and the world would be a lot better off." - Oct. 8, 2004

5. "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." - Sept. 29, 2000

4. "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - Aug. 5, 2004

3. "Rarely is the questioned asked: Is our children learning?" - Jan. 11, 2000

2. "I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." - Jan. 27, 2000

1. "They misunderestimated me." - Nov. 6, 2000

Posted by: Henry Dietzel Nov 5 2008, 02:32 PM

bye bye Bush

Posted by: misterj Nov 5 2008, 02:50 PM

Im sure that you are right. there are many idiots out there. we have a long way to go in many ways in america. let me just say, that if you ever do come to america, you are welcome in my home, and will truly be treated equally.\\

also, who cares if all black people voted for obama? thats still less that 11 percent of the entire usa! and besides, if they did, wouldnt you vote for someone who you thought could empathise with your situation and cultural background? they may believe that because of his color or not, because his policies reflect it. black people have been treated horribly in this country and i dont blame them for seeing obama as an amazing milestone in our history. until now, most thought it was impossible. racism still exists here and being in an interracial marriage, i see it often, even though b4 i thought it didnt really exist. i was one of the arrogant americans. not anymore, as i explained on my previous post(way back on page 5)

Posted by: fatb0t Nov 5 2008, 03:00 PM

Well now only time can tell.. We can debate as much as we want but only the future can enforce or debunk our opinions.

I for one am ecstatic Bush is gone and the Republicans are going to be gone (though the Democrats have been in power for some time and done a horrendous job).

If Republicans were actually fiscally responsible and did not view themselves as the police of the world I would certainly be on board for tax cuts, small government, and making people in charge of themselves.
Too bad in the past eight years we've seen an exponential growth in government (establishment of the department of home land security for one and massive surveillance on citizens), the highest deficit EVER, major fact distortions and lies (Iraq), reinterpretation of the Constitution, establishment of freakin' secret prisions, the laundry list HAS NO end.

I feel basically ANYONE could do better than that.

Posted by: Guitarman700 Nov 5 2008, 03:17 PM

Dave Mustaine for president.
(or Eric Peterson)

Posted by: fatb0t Nov 5 2008, 03:24 PM

Only if Alex Skolnic is VP! (giving Eric advice on how to play ripping solosssssssssss on a national level)

Posted by: kaznie_NL Nov 5 2008, 03:44 PM

Hehe, I also like "misunderestimated" what the... what does he wanna say

Posted by: Ctodd Nov 5 2008, 03:54 PM

actually the African American demographic votes Democrat 90% of the time... so yes

furthermore Bush took it too far with his conservitism... so people want a more liberal president... its the natural order of things... it sways back and forth all the time.... in the 20s we were really conservative... and then we had Roosevelt, a REALLY liberal President, then he took it too far... so after that we voted for a conservative president... and so on, and so on

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 03:57 PM

Well, 90% have voted for the Democratic candidate for decades. So what is the big deal about 7%.

Perhaps if your ancestor had been slaves, and then for over a 100 years suffered egregious discrimination, you would understand better.

The tears in people's eyes, including mine, were because now we know that is officially all over. I also feel that from this point on, the trust is there. I expect that number to start dropping now in future elections. But I fully understand why it was 97%, and see nothing wrong with it.

Who cares about race? Nobody in my town that I know. The BBC has said we do care a great deal, I felt they were clueless.

Posted by: Smikey2006 Nov 5 2008, 04:01 PM

Kristopher for extreme dictator of the guitar world.. all hail

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 04:05 PM

haha. The BBC were useless yesterday but I had to watch it on there. They say everything is down to race They think all Americans are close minded racists. I'm surprised they didn't have a Breaking News banner when Obama won saying "Shock result as Americans found not to be racist" They are idiots on the BBC


Kris doesn't need to be a dictator he'd stay in charge by votes also

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2008, 04:28 PM

Well all news is biased. I quit watching all that 4 years ago. Just looked now, and will quit looking as the election is over. But one thing I did notice over the past few days. I know all of them are biased. However Fox news has gone off the deep end. They always were conservative, but 4 or 5 years ago they were entertaining, and no more biased than anyone else I think, just biased conservative. But now they are off the charts in terms of bias, pretty much like Rush Limbaugh now. They do not even try to hide the bias anymore. At least other networks try to pretend they are objective.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 5 2008, 04:37 PM

Not true - they say "Fair & Balanced" all the time ...

Posted by: Pizzoaro Nov 5 2008, 04:37 PM

I believe obama won because of GMC votes
Maybe give him a prize for winning the GMC competition

Lol im hyper today xD

Posted by: fatb0t Nov 5 2008, 05:04 PM

Andrew, please say you're being sarcastic

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Nov 5 2008, 05:16 PM

That line by Andrew is very sarcastic. Quite clearly

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 5 2008, 05:36 PM

Ok, try it this way:

Not true - they say "Fair & Balanced" all the time ...

Does that help ?

Actually, it works even if it isn't sarcastic - my intention wasn't to state that they are fair and balanced - in the context of Fkalich's assertion that they don't try to hide their bias any more, that was intended as a refutation as they do in fact claim to be fair and balanced ....

Posted by: MickeM Nov 5 2008, 06:02 PM

In all fairness he didn't use the word like that. He started saying misundestood went something like misunder-mis-misunder-underestimated. So "misunderestimated" is just something made up, but funny though he stumbled over the same word a couple of times in the same manner in the same speech.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Nov 6 2008, 12:49 AM

Posted by: mjsteps Nov 6 2008, 11:02 AM

Just a couple of things. The voting system in the US is based upon the electoral college. Each state is assigned a number of points based upon population. Now what has transpired over the past three elections is that it really comes down to 5-7 states that have the most electoral college votes. So for instance no canidate this year made stops in TEXAS. When Bill Clinton one his election he did not win the popular vote but did win the electoral college, so hope this kind of clears things up a bit.

Now let me with some reservation show you how powerless we as "freeworld "people are. If you would like to find some interesting information on where the world might be headed simply type in to your search engine 'Trilateral Commission" and browse through the info and for sure your eyes will widen.