Chords, Need help for chord/jazz symbole/name
Potsau
Apr 4 2020, 08:01 PM
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Hey guys

im working on arrangements for ensemble music.

There three chords I do not know how its declared.

(g# g h )?

(d# g d)?

(f g# d) ?

All within c major scale.

Thanks for helping 🤝

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This post has been edited by Potsau: Apr 4 2020, 09:57 PM


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Gabriel Leopardi
Apr 5 2020, 04:01 PM
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Hi mate, I have some questions first...

What does "h" mean?

Also, C major scale doesn't include sharps so maybe this is not C major, or you are adding outside notes.


(d# g d):

You can see this one as G5 (G + D) with a b6 added (Eb).


(f g# d)

You can see this as F major (F + D) with b9 (bG).

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Potsau
Apr 5 2020, 06:44 PM
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Hi Gabriel

thanks for the first part.

Sorry „h“ (germany) means „b“

Germany. Other world

H. B
B. Bb


The songs written in cmajor.

Here is the chord progressen:

C G |C |F |Cmaj7
G

then the g# g b chord

Am A|

then d# b d

then f g# d

Full ending Cmajor

Something like modulation?

I learned this by carulli and guiliani.
Caug? cause g#?

I dont know the root so I cant figure it out.

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klasaine
Apr 5 2020, 08:35 PM
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Can you scan the music and circle the chord in question? Or post it somehow and mark exactly where it is?

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Potsau
Apr 6 2020, 01:29 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 5 2020, 07:35 PM) *
Can you scan the music and circle the chord in question? Or post it somehow and mark exactly where it is?



Hi Klasaine

here is the piece

Attached Image

Attached Image


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klasaine
Apr 6 2020, 02:47 AM
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I need more context. 'Harmony' doesn't exist in a vacuum. I need to know where they're coming from and then going to.
Can you scan or photograph the entire page?

*My best assessment is that they are D diminished chords moving to Eb or Cm - ?
The first chord in the first example, without any context is a D#maj7 (or a Cm9 or a G augmented).

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Potsau
Apr 7 2020, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 6 2020, 01:47 AM) *
I need more context. 'Harmony' doesn't exist in a vacuum. I need to know where they're coming from and then going to.
Can you scan or photograph the entire page?

*My best assessment is that they are D diminished chords moving to Eb or Cm - ?
The first chord in the first example, without any context is a D#maj7 (or a Cm9 or a G augmented).



Ok we try this.

Mostly I can figure it out. But these 😕

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Potsau
Apr 7 2020, 06:39 PM
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f g# d = Dm flat5? 🤨 or D diminished

d# g d = d#maj7 (modulation?)


In this context

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Potsau
Apr 7 2020, 07:07 PM
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How does this work in the key of c?

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klasaine
Apr 7 2020, 07:22 PM
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OK, that's helpful now that I know where it's going.

The first line is very straightforward - C G C F C. Easy.
The second line is a little more complex harmonically ...
I think the second chord should be all G#s and it will be a G diminished going to Am, which is a very normal (leading tone) resolution.
Then on to a D#maj7 (which is really an altered G chord - the V7) going to a B diminished (without the root) resolving to C major.

I hope that helps.

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Potsau
Apr 7 2020, 08:15 PM
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Need some explanation.
B dim should be b d f in triad? But there is a sharpened 5th? b d f#

The d#maj7 triad I also could see. Great. So ( G alt b7)? in the key of c as a borrowed chord? 🤯

And G dim should be g bb d#? Could this be also an altered g without flaterned 5th?

Some jazz goin on here?

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klasaine
Apr 7 2020, 09:45 PM
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No jazz at all. Just 'modern' harmony.

The chord in question is really a Bdim7 (Bº7) so B D F and Ab but without the root note. The notation has a G# (Ab) not an F#. *Chords do not need a "root" note to function as that chord.

The two chords before the final C major are just V7 chords leading to I.
VIIº7 has most of the same notes as a G7 chord. Both of them employ different alterations of whatever 'leading tone' chord or chords you want to use. If I was just writing a chord chart, I would write G+ Bº7 C.

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Potsau
Apr 8 2020, 08:50 PM
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Give me a sec 🤪

G7 and bdim have mostly same notes.

G7 (G B D F)
Bdim (B D F)

Ok thanks thats fine till yet. Thx
Give me some more time.

Bdim7 is B D F G

OMG

🤩

No. Got false

The 7th of bdim should be A? not Ab? 🧐

Go up in thirds from root. I see there is the Ab in Bdim. How can this happen in the key of c. This tone does not belongs to it 😭

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Potsau
Apr 8 2020, 09:47 PM
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No it should A?

B D F A?



Ok I looked at the Internet. The bdim7 has a flaterned 7th. But why? 🤨 Should it then called bdim b7?

Anyway. I learned this. And it was very helpful. So I finally understood the last chord. 🤝 Ah I get it Thx😍

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klasaine
Apr 9 2020, 01:10 AM
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No, just Bdim7. The bb7 is implied. Think of it as flating or diminishing the flat 7. I know it seems weird but that's how it is.

Technically Ab can be in the key of C. We can borrow from the parallel minor scale which has an Ab as the 6th degree. This is done all the time. Starting in the renaissance and perfected during the baroque period, this is how the harmonic minor scale came into being. The desire to have a stronger V chord in minor keys led to 'borrowing' the leading tone from the parallel major scale to get a major or dominant V chord. You may notice that a C harm min scale contains both an Ab and B natural (h). Now we 'borrow' from major to minor all the time in music. The most current term for it in jazz and popular music is 'Modal Interchange'.

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Potsau
Apr 9 2020, 01:22 AM
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And now I remember all the scale lessons by carulli. eg Amin. Starting with melodic minor with f# and g#. He did this all time with all scale lessons. ascending in melodic and descenting in natural minor. That was some great input. So you certainly learned the function theory instead of level theory?

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klasaine
Apr 9 2020, 03:27 AM
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Harmony and theory don't exist in a vacuum and, they are fluid.
We work with only 12 notes. Yes, there are several octaves but really just 12 different notes. Somehow over the past 1100 years or so of written music we've been able to produce and codify an immense amount of very different sounding music ... with only 12 notes. The 'theory' or the rules and the structure has to be able to bend, shape and mold around what gets played and composed. When you don't know anything about it, music theory seems like rocket science. Once you know it, you realize it's more like plumbing.

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Potsau
Apr 9 2020, 10:54 AM
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And the harmonic minor implicates the ionian augmented mode witch has the 5th augmented half step up. So it says that its further an intermodal change. So I can change chord progression in it to chords like caug dmaj emaj fminor and so on within the cmajor key. I guess. Is that right? 😬

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klasaine
Apr 9 2020, 03:50 PM
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Sort of.
We don't call it Ionian augmented. It's a synthetic scale called Harmonic Major and just like in Harmonic minor, we call it a b6, not a #5. Both Harm Maj and Harm min contain a normal 5 (perfect 5th).
Harm Min is spelled: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7. Harm Maj: 1 2 3 4 5 b6 7

You can 'borrow' any chord from any parallel mode and still say "we're in the key of C". It doesn't have to minor either. You could borrow from Lydian, which is one of the way to get a D or D7 chord in the key of C.
Traditionally, using a D major or D dominant 7 chord in the key of C is either setting up our V chord, G (we call that V of V) or implying an actual key change to the key of G. At the conservatory this is referred to as a secondary dominant chord ... https://www.musicnotes.com/now/musictheory/...dary-dominants/

At this point in music theory history, there's a way to justify using any chord you want at any time. The only 'rule' is does it sound good?

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