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Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 15 2013, 10:48 PM

There's that word again "Best". Shorthand for "Worth a purchase" but meaningless as a descriptor, sadly. So then, quick question!


1.) WHAT HEADPHONES DO YOU USE IN YOUR STUDIO?

I use the AKG240 MKII. Having tried most every vendor and read everything I could find on the subject until my eyes went blurry, I did find some consensus on this set which is partly why I bought them Pros/Studios seem to use this series quite a bit and for good reason. They are some what flat/neutral. But they are still headphones so not a great idea for your only reference source.

PRICE: About $120 U.S. Street Price

CRUCIAL BIT OF INFO!!!

YOUR HEADPHONES SHOULD NOT SOUND "GOOD"

Sounds wrong eh? Well, the thing is, most folks think headphones sound "good" when they have good thick bass and nice crisp treble. Sadly, this is entirely WRONG.. Much like you want your speakers/monitors to be flat/neutral and not "color" the sound, you want the same thing from you headphones. Which is why you can't trust "Earbuds" for ANYTHING other than a final check of your mix to see how ipod folks will hear it

But what to do when budget restrictions keep you out of the $120 headphone bracket? GOOD NEWS!!!! You can still get a nice pair of AKG cans on the cheap!!! I've been searching for a second set recently and Iv'e found this.


The AKG 240 (Original Series)

*PRICE: $76 on amazon.com

Same driver (the part that makes the sound) same great sound and quite a bit cheaper. They don't have a "detachable cable" but so what? I was stoked to find these at this price and got a pair on the spot.


QUESTION: Are you considering buying some headphones? Share your research/info and experiences!

Posted by: Mertay Nov 15 2013, 11:01 PM

I bought the Sennheiser 280pro at the time and still using it (around 100 dollars in U.S.A.?) . The insulation on these are great; while recording (for example) vocals, the sound coming from the headphone wasn't reaching the mic. which is something important.

As for sound I liked the smooth top-end of it, I could work on bright sounding instruments without hurting my ears its probably not the flattest or neutral sounding headphone out there but with a little burning and learning time its pretty useful either at home or in studio.

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 16 2013, 01:20 AM

Owe You a beer Mertay! 280 pro rules. They have also unexpected low end response. We know how much regular listening rooms are not worth trust but I found many low end problems on those headphones and when I fix it using them, the problem is also gone in any other P.A. One of my best ever money spent on ! They also help me to fix some high mid range problems taht not alwaus come out on my regular monitors + they are good as hell to remove any humn, buzz, noise in recordings. Love them!


I tried some AKG to. Like that tone for listening music but didn't find them trustful for my mixing work

Posted by: Mertay Nov 16 2013, 02:09 AM

Ah yeah forgot to mention, specially mid and upper mid.s are detailed very good with these (tiny bit bumped) and for such balance challenges I actually prefer them to my adam monitors which are also considered to give those freq.s in detail.

I first auditioned them at studios, it was a default choice for recording no matter how high-end the studio was because of insulation. Later realized its very popular among PA companies too, my guess is because its built like a tank

It took me a while though to memorize its character for using like studio monitors. I suspected they needed burn time and listened music on them at night while surfing web I guess after a week or two it actually worked as it started to have the "air" I wanted from it. I intend to buy them for recording only, later buy something more expensive but they turned out good enough

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 16 2013, 05:26 PM

I just borrowed a lot of different headphones from my friends and tested a lot of new ones in the music shop I work in. The choice was very clear. They helped me to detec some guitar high mids overloads and I was always satisfied with this bottom end - I mean incerdible equality of low end response below 80 Hz (I trust them as hell while setting all the HPF's). They also help me to find best mid cuts level while mastering at high volumes

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 16 2013, 06:46 PM

Fine choice!! The Senheiser 280 was on the list of top sets when I was doing research. They are pro cans and you can do good work with them. They are "isolation" phones so they are actually better for recording than the 240. I usually use cheap cans during live/amp recording since I don't have an isolation booth I tend to turn up the headphones quite a bit to hear above the amp. For direct recording, "open" headphones are less of a problem since bleed isn't an issue.

For Vocal recording the s280 are a better choice than the 240. Good call!!
**These can be had for about $100 U.S. which is a great price.

I found the low/mid to be just a pinch exaggerated which is maybe what mertay was talking about? But once you get used to that you can work around it pretty easily. In short, if you record live/amps/vocals these are a better choice IMHO than the AKG 240 simply because they are "Isolation" headphones meaning they do a good job of not letting sound out to bleed in to microphones.

If you record mostly direct/using sims/not much vocals, like me, I'd still suggest the akg240 simply due to the flatter more accurate response. But they are "open" meaning that sound will bleed out, so they are more for checking mixes and recording direct. That's probably why I'm partial to them

Posted by: tonymiro Nov 17 2013, 11:24 AM

I think you're talking about checking translation at different volumes. Very few, if any, mastering engineers master at high volume both to protect our hearing and also because of the Fletcher Munson curves. There are also very few of us that master using headphones not least because headphones don't produce proper stereo but that's a different story.

Todd's point about spill is a very good one. If you only do direct recording then a semi open design is fine but otherwise you may need to use fully closed to minimise spill in to mics.

One of the better headphones for mixing and recording is the Beyer Dynamic 770 but they're quite a bit more expensive at @$250.

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 17 2013, 11:54 AM

Yes ..I meant the translation. I do not make full master on my phones, but... because they are closed, I can recheck if I left any hum / noise in the places it should not be. As for the high mids I just recheck the level because I found that sometimes when I tweak those on hd280, they still sound ok on the monitors and home audio gear. Not always the opposite. So it's more like the translation thing You mentioned Tony.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 17 2013, 08:43 PM

The mids on the 280 are the problem area for those particular cans. You can work around it of course by checking against your monitors and such. The issue with the mids and the fact that I record direct are why I chose the AKG. They are a bit more accurate but they do BLEED like CRAZY. The beyer dynamic are killer cans as Mr. Miro mentioned and were on my short list for purchase. Only the price kept them off my final buy list.

You mentioned mastering at High Volume on Headphones, and I have to agree with Toni that it's not a great idea to master with headphones much less at high volume. But then you posted a follow up saying you only check the master with phones, and that is a good idea Actually checking with several different pair of cans, even ear buds is a good idea once the mix is complete.

QUICK MIX TIP: (For Folk New To Mixing)


*EVER NOTICED STUDIOS HAVE SEVERAL SETS OF SPEAKERS OF SPEAKERS OF DIFFERENT SIZES?

That's so that they can hear the mix on different playback systems.The small square speakers you often see are to sort of test what it will sound like on a crap system. Also, they don't use all the speakers at once. Just one pair at a time This seems obvious to folks with some experience but at first, it can seem just odd to have all those speakers

You may see two pair of mid size speakers. (near field monitors) they serve the same purpose. Trying your mix out on several playback systems allows you a better idea of how the mix will "translate" when played in a variety of settings. Home audio, ear buds, laptop speakers, etc.

Posted by: pdf64 Nov 17 2013, 11:31 PM

Another vote for Sennheiser HD280 from me, especially for live monitoring, I was very impressed when I tried a pair when recording.
Their isolation, power handling and bass extension being the main benefits compared to other types.
However, I didn't use them for long enough on mixdown (or other listening) to form an opinion on how accurate they were.
Sennheiser tend to make things sound better than they really are.
Thanks for the tip on the AKGs, I'll look out for them.
Pete

Posted by: PosterBoy Nov 18 2013, 07:49 AM

I use Beyerdynamic Dt770 pro which are 220 or so in your money,.

Posted by: mad Nov 18 2013, 08:06 AM

Using them since about one year, too. Very satisfied with them!

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 18 2013, 09:46 AM

I was checking either beyerdynamics and AKG while choosing best phones for my work. All 3 (with Senheiser) were great phones and I like all but then again I always choose the one that when I tweak something on them I feel satisfied listening to the mix on others too.

I was comparing a few mixes that I love to test the gear...like "Julio's party"by Syro Gyra.

For me this record does sound good on everything I tried:



Now some mixes I thought sounded good on AKG and Beyerdynamic had some details I would like to fix while listening on Senheiser. When I tweaked those I went back to AKG and Beyerdynamics and still liked to mix.


Those are a few rules that work for my recording gear choice


I had similar sytuation with Yamaha NS30 monitors. Thay had more than nasty 4-6kHZ range and often hi-hat sound on some recordings was harsh as hell. Now while tweaking by a few very narrow cuts I could made mixes sounding well (I hope so for those NS30 and simialar sounding speakers too

Posted by: Mertay Nov 18 2013, 02:30 PM

This also leads to design preference, like in monitors some prefer ported and some don't I think this is also applyable for headphones.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Nov 18 2013, 03:25 PM

These are the headphones I've got, and I've always been very pleased with them:

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 19 2013, 03:29 AM

Egad! Are you talking about the YAMAHA NS30t Speaker? If so, a quick google on that might have saved you the trouble Those speakers are just a bit crap to be honest due to the harshness of the tweeter,sort of like the original NS10.

They are not really monitors. Those are glorified "HiFi" speakers. They are best used in a situation like this IMHO .



The original NS10 was so bad in fact, people used to tape layers of Kleenex over the tweeter to soften the sound. The later NS10M was a bit of an improvement and the newer YAMAHA HS80M which are quite respectable and workable as nearfields for the price point IMHO



In the end, Headphones and Monitors come down the ears of person using/buying them. As with most gear, there are some products that get used quite a bit because they just work and work well All of the Headphones mentioned I'd say fall roughtly in to that category Anyone looking for cans would do well to own any of the three we have discussed.

AKG 240, 240 MK II
BEYER DYNAMIC 770
SENHEISER 280, 380


Each has it's strong points and each his it's issues just like any piece of gear. It's important to try to understand the details if possible when buying gear so that you get the most bang for your buck especially if you are trying to build a home studio from scratch with limited funds as many GMCers are doing or have done

As we talked about earlier in the thread, you are SPOT ON about these as recording headphones due to their being "CLOSED BACK" and having really good "ISOLATION" E.G. the sound doesn't bleed out and get in to a near by microphone

You also nailed it IMHO on the Sennheiser cans propensity to make things sound a pinch better than they really are. I tried several pair side by side to the BD and AKG and KRK cans and they did seem to have a bit more punch/push in the mid than was actually there on the track. Of course if you know this ahead of time, you can work around it during mixdown, so it's not a huge prob. But if you were mixing, for example, only using headphones (never a great idea but sometimes it's all someone might have so folks make do) it might become an issue. Still they are great cans and very much worth including in our short list of cans that most home studio buffs might be able to afford

Todd

Posted by: Monica Gheorghevici Nov 19 2013, 09:21 AM

I use AKG240 MKII and I bought them with almost 200 $. One year I was satisfied about them, now I don't know why but the sound it's not very amplified in them even if I let the volume at maximum level.
And I feel that I miss some very tiny details when I try to mix something and this thing wasn't happen when I bought them. Actually I bought this headphones special for those tiny details.
I always use my monitors and others headphones for verify the sound at the end of mix to be sure that all it's ok.
Unfortunatelly, currently I don't have anymore that big trust in this headphones.

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 19 2013, 12:58 PM

Nope Todd- those are not that one. I can't find the precise model name. Mine are more "monitors-like" but indeed - they are not studio monitors they are home audio category and this is exactly the reason of buying them because they represent some standard of home gear that is still in use at some places / homes. When I can nasty 4-6 kHz (narrow cuts at particular frequency depending on the particular mix) I make it sound ok on those NS and still ok on other gear. That's probably something better if we consider that our production is made for people to listen it at home. I think that saying "those speakers are harsh "etc is no excuse for us, mixing guys. Some tweaks make Your record sound good even on those worst speakers or just a notebook speakers. My regular monitors ar Adam A7. This is my opinion.


Each little thing in my "monitoring" system has it's purpose. I use little sharp hi-fifor messing with the middle range. Why? Because why I make some adjustment to the mix and they soudn ok on this Sharp, I still like it on any other of my speakers. Yamaha is for the 4-6kHz tweaks.

Every one of us has a different approach to the mixing job. It's just mine. I'm not saying it's any better.

Posted by: Mertay Nov 19 2013, 02:35 PM

Check out these monitors from link;

http://www.barisbuyuk.com/web/galeri.aspx?lang=1

He's a well respected mastering engineer where I live and you'll notice giant PMC's together with ns10m's and mixcubes I've been there once to meet him and chat. Not giving away any studio secrets but those ns10m's were important to him although the PMC's (almost as expensive as a small house ) were nothing like I've ever heard before!

As said every speaker has its use but I must add ns10m's are very good if one knows how to use them, a friend of mine had one long ago when we were students, we mixed a song with them then checked them on Genelec 8050's at school studio and the kick was perfect

Posted by: tonymiro Nov 19 2013, 04:07 PM

Yes Mertay absolutely right that many of us mastering engineers check translation on a different set of speakers. We use ATC SCM Pros (which also cost nearly as much as small house) for mastering but check translation on a pair of Sonus Faber audiophile hifi speakers and avantone and often a car stereo. Ultimately what works for a monitor for mastering is not the same as mixing or recording or listening at home for enjoyment.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 20 2013, 03:07 AM

As Mr. Miro points out in the post below, and as I mentioned previously, it's a good idea to check your mix on a variety of speakers/playback systems to see how the mix translates. However, you mentioned in your post previously though that you were "mixing" on the Yamaha speakers in question? I was asserting that mixing on any kind of home audio/hifi speakers is just not a great idea if it can be at all avoided IMHO

As far as the NS series, as I mentioned previously, the old NS10s were used quite a bit and still are, even though they are harsh. Many studios did use the KLEENEX COVERED TWEETER trick to try to reduce this. The NS10M fixed most of this and the latest version (see previous post with pictures) are much better. They were so harsh people had to cover the tweeters or the mix would not "translate" well. So please don't misunderstand me here. I"m not bagging on them in any way. So I"m NOT saying "it's no excuse for us mixing guys" or anything like that. Just pointing out the history of those speakers and based on the model you mentioned previously, drawing a correlation to the harsh sound.

As I mentioned also, people in pro facilities will often use a small pair of speakers such as the AURATONE (tiny little cubes that sound very bad) to see how a mix sounds on really poor playback systems. Each of these playback systems is important in creating a balanced mix. They are all essential parts of the puzzle. As MERTAY mentioned, that's why you see them in pro studios such as the engineer he was talking about. So it seems we are on the same exact page here but but you seem to be arguing the point?

Anyhoo, As many folks reading these threads are still building their own home studio, I think it's important to share some established principles while acknowledging the fact that as you mention, "everyone has their own way".

So to sum up

1.)Don't mix/master on home/hifi/laptop speakers if at all possible.
2.)Try to get one pair of decent near field studio monitors (4 to 8 inch woofer, KRK, ALESIS, etc. as mentioned)
3.)Try to get one pair of decent headphones (previous mentioned brands/models)
4.)DO playback your mix on a variety of playback systems/earbuds/computer speakers to see how the mix will "translate" to other systems. This is entirely different from MIXING on these systems.

That about covers it

Todd

Posted by: Hexabuzz Nov 20 2013, 04:38 AM

If monitors aren't an option, consider adding the Focusrite VRM Box

http://us.focusrite.com/usb-audio-interfaces/vrm-box

It simulates various hi, mid and low end monitors, as well as the bleed/crosstalk your ears would normally experience listening to speakers in a room. It also simulates studio as well as home environments.

New, they're only $99, but I found one used for $39

Check it out...

Dave

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 20 2013, 05:26 AM

Exactly I go in to why he's doing this (why most good engineers do it in fact) in this post earlier in the thread. Here is the link to the post. I even mention the NS10m (much improved tweeters over the orginal NS10) in particular Small world eh? He's even using the AURATONEs I mention in a following post. Nice setup!

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=50647&view=findpost&p=665901

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 20 2013, 01:16 PM

The world of sound iis so twiseted But fortunately we usuallyget a few common solutions

Posted by: Mertay Nov 20 2013, 01:31 PM

There are some demo software options, before buying I suggest trying them first. To be honest I'm not a fan of that technology but maybe its just me...

One thing particularly important about headphones is the longer you work with them, the higher volume you'll want to listen them to a point of permanent damage to your ears. Once in a while/when away from home is ok but not good for everyday use of replacing monitors.

Its simply a nature of listening through them in time, specially when ipod's became popular I remember I could hear what others were listening in the subway

Posted by: jstcrsn Nov 21 2013, 06:35 PM

I know these are not the best, but if your one a budget akg 44 for 20 bucks
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Countdown-to-Black-Friday-g26941t0.gc?rel=email&source=4TP3LLA

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 22 2013, 10:09 PM

I've got a pair of those and for $20 they are some of the best you'll find. If you are working with a tight budget these are a great choice. WELL SAID DARIUS!!!!

Todd

Posted by: Spock Nov 23 2013, 02:35 PM

I wish I understood mastering more. I use headphones, but not for mixing. When I finally get something sounding the way I like it, it sounds totally different in my car, so I always load my export to my iPhone and drive around to hear the mix, come back and adjust until my car sounds good. It always sounds good being played straight out of the DAW on my computer - but the translation to other devices is never there or consistent, even between songs when I have made all the same exact settings on each track - even input levels.

And, I have never attempted to mix for something to sound good on a laptop - I suppose that would be a totally different train of thought, because you would have to really do some magic on bass and drums to get them to stand out and be level for tiny speakers.

I really want some bigger monitors or just add more - I use the Rockit 5, but would love to put the 8s in their place and move the 5s more towards the back.

Posted by: Mertay Nov 23 2013, 06:46 PM

This might be a room or speaker placement issue?

Posted by: Spock Nov 23 2013, 07:04 PM

I think it's my ear honestly, not real sure. Maybe I'm being too picky as little things drive me nuts which nobody else would ever notice - at the same time, my finished product never sounds professional, I mean, it sounds good for a novice and it's fine for what it is. I'm learning as I go, little by little and enjoying the process, but I would love to be able to turn my tinkering into a well produced wall of sound.

I'm really interested and thinking about getting into the EZ Mix software - I'm very impressed with the demos on their site.

Posted by: Mertay Nov 23 2013, 07:54 PM

Can't be sure without listening but I thought you have the problem of replicating a mastered sound in a mix stage.

Professional productions simply sound good right after recording with only pan and level balance. I suggest aiming to a realistic sound (stage-like without the reverb) rather than a mastered cd as reference, its really not a bad idea going to concerts for tuning ears.

Posted by: tonymiro Nov 24 2013, 11:27 AM

I'd largely agree with Mertay here.

Mixing is not mastering and confusing the two will make your role of mixing much more complicated. A commerical release that has been mastered is different to one that has just finished being mixed. There are lots of material on the internet that have links to mixes prior to mastering, including some that went on to be famous records. You may find it much more useful to listen to some of these and compare them to the final product to give you more of a sense of how your mixes compare. Where comparison with a commercial CD can be helpful is if you want to know what is current for a particular genre. So for instance you may listen to some material to hear how they place the main vocal in the soundstage, how some deliberately shear the top of a wave form and so on.

Where you may well struggle, which is what a lot of home productions try for, is to slavishly mimic the commerical release. What works for one track in terms of EQ, compression etc is nearly always specific to that track and that track alone. Whilst there are general principles and starting points for using EQ etc there are no settings that always work for every track. Software that promotes itself as such... well no comment. A lot of very good pro mixes are mainly just good balancing of well recorded material. Knowing how to gain stage properly is really important here and is far too often missed/ignored by home studios. It's also often a case of knowing what/when not to do something that distinguishes a pro and a home production. Mixing is not a case of chuck any and all of your effects and processors on the tracks and 2 bus ust because they're there. Many home productions are poorly gainstaged, throw too much on and end up sounding distorted, brittle and thin.