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Posted by: lcsdds Mar 9 2009, 09:23 PM

Guys....Pedja is running a collab on just the thing we all need. Go here:

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=25478&hl=

I'd like you guys to all sign up an participate if you would. I will give you guys some cool arpeggios shapes you can work with for this. I have been wanting to do this but wanted to hold off so you wouldn't get overwhelmed....but since Pedja is running this collab I'll do it now. This is just what we have been talking about. Using chord tones in your solos.....PERFECT!! Thanks Pedja!!

Don't worry about your solos for this month guys. Just work on it when you can and we'll get back to them next month. This collab is just what the Dr/Dentist ordered. Pleas sign up. I already did!!!

As soon as everybody signs up I'll go over how I want you to approach it. Thanks guys!!

Posted by: jer Mar 9 2009, 09:33 PM

I signed up.



Original solo is on hold.

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 9 2009, 09:38 PM

Just work on it when you have time. This collab takes precedence though. This will be really cool for us to apply what we have talked about and it will allow me to show you guys some cool arpeggio shapes. Ones that are easier to play than trying to sweep a triad shape. I'll make a tab with the shapes you can use so when you go to write your solo you can just pick a shape off of the tab and then come up with a line using that shape. WE NEED THIS!!!

Posted by: opeth.db Mar 9 2009, 09:39 PM

WE do need it. Im not ready for it though.

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 9 2009, 09:44 PM

Why aren't you ready for it? You don't have to shred. Just play the rythms you are comfortable with. Quarter notes, eighth notes etc. Come up with a melodic line instead of a "flashy line". Those melodies that Satch plays.....This is what he is doing. Sign up dude!!!


Jer.....Might need to get the Milkbones and hungry dog ready........

Posted by: jer Mar 9 2009, 09:45 PM

We havent talked about arpeggios though. Beyond what they are.....

Posted by: opeth.db Mar 9 2009, 09:48 PM

NO! Some dude name Monte gave me a ton of stuff already to work on!

Posted by: jer Mar 9 2009, 09:52 PM

I suppose for this purpose arpeggios are the triads. In order either up or down the strings.

Really Dan, this is an easy one to knock out.

/C maj7 / A min7 / D min7 / G7 /
/C maj7 / A min7 / D min7 / G7 /
/E min7 / A min7 / D min7 / G7 /
/C maj7 / A min7 / D min7 / G7 /

I'm assuming those slashes are just to divide the chord names.

All we do is solo with the notes of Cmaj7 for 1 bar, then the notes of Amin7 for a bar, then the notes of Dmin7 for a bar, then the notes of G7 for a bar. Etc....

Hopefully the tempo is reasonable... If I'm doing that much jumping around It'll have to be at about 30bpm for me to play along.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Mar 9 2009, 09:55 PM

Okay most probably I am retarded, but I don't understand the whole concept behind this...

For me arpeggio is playing each note of a certain chord one after another. Of course we don't have to play all the notes, but what I mean is that there is no string skipping, just one string up, or one string down, and then again one string up or one string down etc.etc.

Considering that this is the chord progression:
/C maj7 / A min7 / D min7 / G7 /
/C maj7 / A min7 / D min7 / G7 /
/E min7 / A min7 / D min7 / G7 /
/C maj7 / A min7 / D min7 / G7 //

We should come up with some arpeggio patterns based on the same chords as listed above?

Pedja provided us with diagrams of all the "chord tones". But that looks more like a scale to me... For example Cmaj7 chord. We have these diagrams showing us, where the 4 notes that the chord consist are.
There is the 1,3,4,7 "intervals"/notes ( You know what I am talking about better than me.. ). I assume if we play the 1 interval, we can only play 3 after it? If we play the 4'th, than we can go to 3 or 7'th? Sorry for so many questions, just have no idea on the whole thing...

Posted by: jer Mar 9 2009, 09:58 PM

we can use the chord notes as or not as arpeggios.

This is confusing for me as all that really means to me is play them in order if you want (arpeggio) or dont play them in order (chord tones)

To me it sounds more difficult than it is.

I hate the word arpeggio.



So for bar 1 you can use the notes of the Cmaj7 chord to play anything you want.

If you happen to play them in order ascending or descending, thats an arpeggio.

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 9 2009, 10:04 PM

Everybody just go sign up. I'll show you how to do this. I will make it simple. I'm gonna give you a tab with all the different shapes you can use and any triad shape will work for ANY of these chords. You can do one bar every other day and knock this out. Seriously guys, this is where it is at. Forget everything else I have assigned you for now....Work on it if you have time but this should take precedence. Don't worry about your lesson takes etc., This is what we want to learn....how to write solos. This is how we do it. GO SIGN UP!!!

I will explain all and give you a tab by tomorrow. Then you have two weeks to work on it.

Forget the Kaz-box licks and your lessons if you must. I want you guys to work on this. This will help you learn to write YOUR music. GMC lessons will always be around to work on. These collabs...especially these classroom type collabs that Pedja is doing.....are invaluable. I'm putting aside stuff in my practice routine to because I NEED THIS JUST AS MUCH AS YOU GUYS.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Mar 9 2009, 10:06 PM

Ah I re-read the colab topic, so we just have to use the chord tones, don't have to use arpeggios... Well maybe I could enter, but I never wrote anything worth naming it a solo....

Posted by: jer Mar 9 2009, 10:18 PM

Me either Marek. Me either.

But thats why I'm here.

\m/ \m/





This is as basic as it gets.

Soloing using ONLY the tones of the chord. ONLY the landing notes.



There are 16 bars in this solo.

I play on keeping some parts of this as my "Kaz Box Original Licks" assignment.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Mar 9 2009, 10:38 PM

Guys just so there isn't any confusion, you can solo using CHORD TONES (play notes of chord in any order, and you don't have to play them all, you can play only one if you want to !) and you can also use ARPEGGIOS ! ( here you need to play notes of the chord in very specific order so the ear can perceive the sound as arpeggio !).

Hope that makes sense. Great to see you there, it should be lots of fun !

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 9 2009, 10:56 PM

Seriously Guys.....I don't want to piss anybody off. Dan....If you feel you have too much on your plate already don't sign up. I understand. IMO this collab should take precedence over anything I have you working on. You don't need to work on it day and night but I know that you told me that you want to take part of you practice routine and write your own solos. This is the first step. I am soloing over a Cmaj7 so what do I play? The first thing that should come to mind would be the Cmaj7 arpeggio.

If I tell you guys to go play your triads you ain't gonna do it......I wouldn't. But if I tell you to go write a solo you are gonna say "cool...what do I do?" Here is one option.

Pedja is genius with these classroom collabs. The first one was all about sequences and how to move them through the scale. This one is about arpeggios. You don't even need to learn any arpeggios to do it. You know the triads....just stick to those.

For Cmaj7 you have a Cmaj triad and an Emin triad. Pick one or combine them. You don't even need to learn any arpgeggios but I am gonna give you a tab anyways. I was going to eventually but this gives me an excuse.

Again, you guys can do what you want....but for those who sign up I will go over what I want you to do. I'll walk you through it. This is the best way I know to show you guys how to use your triads and arpeggios in soloing. Jer how many times did you learn your triads....4 or 5...Didn't apply them and forgot them. This collab will tell you how to apply them.


Totally up to you guys.

Check back here for the tab for those that are participating. \m/\m/ You don't need it but you'll want it eventually and it might be fun for you guys to mess with these arpeggios. I'm gonna give you some cool 2 note per string shapes over 2 strings. Should be fun.

Posted by: jer Mar 9 2009, 11:39 PM

See, I don't understand this.



Cmaj7 = you have C, E, G, B

So rip it up with those 4 notes.




Triad shmiad.......

here are the notes I can use for the first bar.



Are there triads in there?

Sure.

I can probably find the big dipper too.

How does looking at these notes with a triad shape in mind help me?

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 10 2009, 12:55 AM

Remember Cmaj7=Cmaj triad + Emin triad.

Look at the pic. All the 1-3-5 are the same as you major triad shapes....C major in this case...and the 3-5-7's are minor triad shapes...E minor in this case. Remember the only difference between a major and minor triad is the 3rd. Go over the chart and you will see all the triad shapes in the tab.


SEEEEEEEEEE!!!! You are learning something alread........TOLD YA SO!!!

Posted by: jer Mar 10 2009, 01:20 AM

hang on... going to get my book....

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 10 2009, 01:34 AM

Jer... approach this like you are making some excercises. I'm gonna give you guys some more examples tomorrow. I've pissed everybody off enough for one day.

Posted by: jer Mar 10 2009, 04:25 AM

yeah, I see what you are saying. They are in there. I'm not real sure how that helps me. When we only have the 1-3-5-7 notes to work with they are pretty much all good starting and landing notes aren't they?

In this collab, how many bars are we supposed to play?

I did 2 that I like, then it all started going down hill..... Each one after that was less and less inspired.

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 10 2009, 04:31 AM

Jer....I told you in one of my posts today that I was going to make little etudes for the different techniques. I'm gonna take this opportunity to work on an arpeggio etude. Like this:

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/sweep-etude/

Try doing something similar. You don't need to play 16th triplets. You can play 8th notes or triplets. I'm gonna give you guys some triad shapes and some ideas as well. Don't worry dude....I'm not gonna just throw you in the water and say "swim".

I have wrote the first four bars tonight. I'll post the tab for you guys tomorrow and you can see what I am doing. You don't have to just play the triad shapes. You can put the notes all on one string and tap it. You can put the 7th and root on the B string and the 3rd and 5th on the high E and play triplets or 16th. Vai does this All the Time. I'll walk you guys through it. When I say triads I mean the notes of the triad just as much as I mean the shapes. You gotta think and be creative. That is what playing guitar is about. It's easy to just learn a tab. It's harder to try and write something yourself...but it gets easier.....only if you try and work on it though. That is what this collab is about. Triads and arpeggios...Chord tones.

I'll give you guys a tab tomorrow with a few different shapes to work with.

Posted by: jer Mar 10 2009, 04:34 AM

I don't know what "etude" means.

WTF is this????? Hell no.

Posted by: Outlaw2112 Mar 10 2009, 04:39 AM

lol... he has me working on this one also

Im still on the first box

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 10 2009, 04:40 AM

Dude...you don't have to play 16th triplets. Do 8th notes and work on flowing from one arpeggio to the next. Use quarter notes if you want. I'll show you tomorrow. I showed you that so you could get an idea of what an etude is. Basically a "musical excercise". I don't expect you to play something like that. That was all triad shapes BTW.

Posted by: jer Mar 10 2009, 04:41 AM

I am completely clear on what Pedja's collab is about. That is explained in his initial post.

Soloing using the chord tones. Which are all pictured in his post.

I did 8 bars of this tonight. I've been working on it for over 2 hours.

I see notes. And I know there are triad shapes in there. I see em. But I can play EVERY Note in there.

So I don't see the significance of the 1-3-5 notes. With the exception of the 7 its ALL triad notes.

Its like using a highlighter and coloring every word on the page. If we were using the 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 of the scale, then I think it would mean something.

I understand pedja's collab.

I understand triads. I just have found no use for triads yet.

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 10 2009, 04:42 AM

So am I....at a whopping 60 KU's. The point of this is to show you the possibilities for triad shapes. You want to learn to sweep? Start here. These are BASIC triad shapes just played at warp speed. Nothing more.

Posted by: Outlaw2112 Mar 10 2009, 04:52 AM

yeah you can say that again... warp speed!!!

Its all good though, im having fun doing them.. did my 90 minutes and more tonight

Posted by: jer Mar 10 2009, 04:55 AM

I thought all we needed were the chord tones. Which are already pictured in the collab thread.

bar 1 = use the cmaj7 dots.
bar 2 = use the amaj7 dots.
bar 3 = use the dmaj7 dots.

etc...

Its clear that those are the 1-3-5-7 of the scales. So every dot on there without a 7 is a triad note. I dont know why that matters here. But I do understand it.

But still, it just comes back to "Here are the notes of the chords, solo with them."

Or am I missing something?

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 10 2009, 04:55 AM

John....Did you sign up for Pedja's collab?

When we get done with this collab guys....I promise you won't regret it. It is gonna teach you alot of ways to connect your licks......COOL WAYS. Trust me on this. I know it might seem pointless right now but you won't regret it.

Posted by: Outlaw2112 Mar 10 2009, 04:58 AM

I got home late, i asked if there was room but havent gotten a reply back yet... Hopefully ill get in.
but to answer your question, yes i tried to sign up for his collab...

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 10 2009, 04:58 AM

You are spot on Jer. It's not the 1-3-5-7 of the scale. It is the 1-3-5-7 of the arpeggio and the 1-3-5-7 changes every time you change chords.

Posted by: Emir Hot Mar 10 2009, 08:56 AM

This collab is really easy and extremely useful. I can't wait to hear many different ideas. Great starting approach for a good improvisation is by playing the chord notes.

/C maj7 / A min7 / D min7 / G7 /

You can also think of this progression like this:

C maj7 = Ionian - 1, 3, 5, 7
A min7 = Aeolian (natural minor) - 1, b3, 5. b7
D min7 = Dorian - 1, b3, 5, b7
G7 = Mixolydian - 1, 3, 5, b7

The numbers represent the chord notes taken from the scale (mode). These notes are called 'Arpeggio' if they are played one after another in no particular order If you play them all at the same time then you played a chord.

I have also signed up. Good luck everybody and see you there in the upload thread

Posted by: jer Mar 10 2009, 01:38 PM

They are the notes of the scale.

bar 1 = cmaj
bar 2 = amaj
bar 3 = dmaj

etc....

Chords, arpeggios, triads, all of that is built from scales.

The Dmaj7 chord is the 1-3-5-7 of the Dmaj scale.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Mar 10 2009, 01:58 PM

Guys I just posted my take for collaboration.
You can download it http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=14309

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 10 2009, 02:37 PM

You are correct Jer. The challenge here is gonna be to make the arpeggios flow from one to the next. I'll give you guys examples of what to do. I think you are just picturing your self fingering a triad shape and going "OK.....now what?" There is way more you can do with this stuff. I'll show you...I promise. Check out Pedja's take for a good example.

Posted by: jer Mar 10 2009, 03:01 PM

No. I'm listening to the first bar, Cmaj7 and looking at that collection of Cmaj7 notes and playing a lick I wrote over it.

Then doing the same for Amin7, and Dmin7 etc....

And its going fine. (meaning I am playing original music that I created, I'm not real happy with what I am coming up with, but its a start. Since I only have the "right" notes available to me its all in key and sounds fine.)

I'm not seeing the relevance of "triads" here. Earlier we defined triads as the building blocks for chords. And the starting/landing notes for leads. Makes sense to me.

Well I only have those notes to pick from anyway.

Maybe if we took this out further and started using all of the scale tones, then it'd make sense.

Right now I'm playing Cmaj7 notes. Call em Cmaj7 notes, call 3 of them triads, call them whatever. All 4 of them work. I guess 3 of them are special. But 3 out of 4 doesnt mean much. 3 out of 7 would be different.

Is this supposed to be something I notice NOW or later?

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 10 2009, 03:19 PM

Jer...the whole point of this collab is to come up with interesting ways to play something just using chord tones. It is restrictive...Pedja is trying to get us to think in terms of chord tones here. You are right....we could create WAY cooler lines by adding in some scale tones as well. We'll get to that. For now just try and focus on the chord tones. Remember....Cmaj7 contains 2 triads....Cmaj and Emin. I'm gonna give you some shapes you can use today to spice things up as well. Keep working Jer. By focusing on this aspect of lead playing you will easily be able to pick out where good starting and ending notes are when creating other lead lines. You will also get an idea of how to just use arpeggios to create lines. You don't need to be able to sweep to play arpeggios.

Posted by: jer Mar 10 2009, 03:48 PM

nevermind,

I'm not making myself understood at all.

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 10 2009, 04:50 PM

Here is what I am playing the second time through the chord progression on Pedja's collab. Notice that when you just look at it that it looks like I am doing a scalar run. I am just playing the arpeggios. I am putting the 7th and root on the lower string and the 3rd and the 5th on the higher string. On the first bar I am playing a Cmaj7 arpeggio on the Low E and A then repeating it an octave higher on the D and G strings and then finishing it off yet another octave higher on the B and High E. Not one triad shape involved. I am doing the same thing for the other chord changes.

You guys don't need to play quintuplets of 16th triplets....You can play 8th notes or 8th triplets. You can also take the approact that Pedja did in his take and just try and make it more melodic. I am wanting to use this as a way for me to practice different arpeggio runs so I am taking this approach.

The secon picture is the first time through the progression. You can see for Cmaj7 I just use a sweep shape and then over the Amin7 I string the notes out all on one string and tap. Then for the Dmin7 I use another tapping shape....Same shape as the first picture but I just add on a tapped note on the high string.....and then string out the G7 notes again all on one string and play another tapping phrase. Again..not one triad SHAPE....just using the chord tones.

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 10 2009, 05:33 PM

Here is a tab of some two string 7th arpeggio shapes played in three octaves. Think of these a 4 note scales. I tabbed one for every 7th chord used in the collab. I also gave you some 4 string shapes starting from the "A string". These are laid out to where you have a shape starting from every note in the arpeggio. I didn't give you a shape for the dominant 7th chord yet or a shape starting from the 3rd or 5th of the minor 7th shape. I'll get these to you later and update the tab. This shoud give you alot of different options to play for the collab. Give them a try. I'll go into a little more detail later on today.

Posted by: Outlaw2112 Mar 21 2009, 12:56 AM

I need to start working on this collab... Ive become soo obsessed with getting the metronome down perfect that i havent started working on this collab..

So the notes on this gp file are all the notes i need to make a solo from? Im a little confused on all this theory 3rd 5th 7th talk... but whats new.. So if i study these arpeggio shapes and come up with a solo for this collab things should work out, correct

I have my son this weekend so ill start working on this sunday night.

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 21 2009, 01:06 AM

Yeah...just stick to the notes of the chord you are playing over. The 1-3-5-7 are the notes of the chord. For instance lets look at Cmaj7

Cmaj7=C-E-G-B....C=1 or the root...E=3 or major third....G=5 or perfect 5th....B=7 or major 7th. Just refers to the intervals used to create the chord. Remember what Jer said about leapfrogging and stacking 3rds.

You don't need to create anything epic or fancy for this collab. Pedja just wants you to stick to the notes of the chord you are soloing over. So for Cmaj7 you need to stick to CEGB as far as what notes you are playing....very limiting....on purpose.

Posted by: Outlaw2112 Mar 26 2009, 04:20 AM

thanks for having me sign up for this collab.... it was alot of fun to play and mess with, i would have never joined it
if you didnt want us to do it

thanks monte.

heres my take on it

Posted by: lcsdds Mar 26 2009, 04:29 AM

Awesome John!! Nice take. I noticed that Pedja had you redo it a few times to make sure you stuck to the rules of the collab. The whole purpose of this collab is to get you to really think about what you are playing....in this case only chord tones. Even though you are not a Jazz guy...I'm not either .....Pedja is doing all of us at GMC a HUGE service by giving us great tools to compose/improvise solos. You could just sit and noodle for hours until you play something that sounds good....OR....you could approach your solo intelligently and compose or improvise something using these tools that Pedja is teaching us. This applies to any Genre. Hopefully this will give you a lot of ideas for your own leads.

Posted by: Outlaw2112 Mar 26 2009, 04:33 AM

yeah it gives me ideas, i just gotta alot of catching up to do in my brain... start playing by feeling and thinking instead of just playing by feeling..

im learning slowly, but at least im learning

thanks

Posted by: jer Mar 26 2009, 12:19 PM

Nicely done John!!!!

Posted by: Outlaw2112 Mar 26 2009, 12:28 PM

thanks... looking forward to hear your take

Posted by: kaznie_NL Mar 27 2009, 03:21 PM

I alomst finished writing (3/4) and today/ tomorow I'm gonna finish and record.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Mar 27 2009, 04:13 PM

I uploaded mine already in the upload thread. First time there was a mistake, and everything from the 10 bar was one bar to late, but somehow I liked the sound of it much more than the final take Anyway it was a great idea, as I proved myself that I am capable of writing anything... Most certain nothing special, but still better than nothing:)

Posted by: kaznie_NL Mar 29 2009, 01:08 PM

I uploaded my take It's in the UPload thread, here's a link to the direct WBT take: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=14681

They're actualy all loose licks, it's hard to connect with these triads.