Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Starry Manhattan Rain Aug 2 2008, 03:36 AM

Hey GMC,

A few weeks ago, I posted here about purchasing a mutli fx to compliment my Line 6 Spider III 30W and to be used for some basic recording. However, I don't still this will meet my tonal desires so I have decided that a owning a small tube combo might be in my near future.

Some of the amps I have looked into are:

*Laney LC15R
*Peavey Valveking 112
*Peavey JSX Mini Colossal
*Blackheart BH5H and BH112 Half Stack

I am looking for reasonably good cleans and a really smooth but still fairly hot distorted tone. I play a bit of instrumental rock but occasionally I'll venture into metal territory like Megadeth, Metallica, so a bit of extra grit would be good. Some of my influences and songs that I like the tone of:

*John Petrucci (Erotomania, Forsaken, Hollow Years-Live at Budokan Version
*Paul Gilbert (The Curse of Castle Dragon - I love this tone)
*Joe Satriani (Until We Say Goodbye, The Extremist)

I will not likely be gigging and I am only 17 and still at home, so I definitely do not need a huge combo or half stack. I am playing an Ibanez RG1570, which I hope to change the pickups for some DiMarzio's, but only after I replace the amp first.

I am open to suggestions as to small combo amps and pedals (including distortion pedals for extra gain) that will help me coax the best possible tone to meet the needs I have listed above.

Thanks for your help and all discussion and suggestions are appreciated.

Posted by: inertia Aug 2 2008, 04:15 AM

All of those amps look quite good. However, if price is not an issue, you may want to look at the Mesa Boogie Express combos, the 50 watt and 25 watt have switches that make them 5 watt amps and they're supposed to be great for small gigs. I have heard nothing but great things about them but they are at least double the price of any amp on your list. From what I have seen of the blackheart, it does not seem as versatile compared to the others. The little JSX looks pretty cool actually.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Aug 2 2008, 09:06 AM

Does it have to be an amp at all?
Amp are the best tone wise but also more expensive
comparing to processors and stuff like that.
And if it's only for home use,eventually recording as well,
than a processor might be better solution for you?

Posted by: Starry Manhattan Rain Aug 2 2008, 10:44 AM

Yeah that's the problem I'm having. In another post in this thred that I created earlier (http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=17389&hl=birthday) Ivan Milenkovic said a Spider 3 is basically a POD with a speaker. This basically made me think that a processor wouldn't improve my tone either so thats why I'm now thinking of getting a small tube amp. I am hating the tone of my Spider (the distortion is just so digital sounding its not smooth is how I would describe it) and I am thinking a small tube amp may give me the tone I'm looking for.

Recording ability isn't that important to me atm, I'm not really sure why I said I needed it.

Posted by: kjutte Aug 2 2008, 11:30 AM

For example for erotomania, you're very depended on the amp's gain, but for easy stuff like satriani, you gotta fix up your effects.

Posted by: Matt23 Aug 2 2008, 11:45 AM

I think if your wanting tubes and your not doing gigs it might be better to get a tube preamp, instead of an amp, so you don't pay for a speaker. Also what do you hate about the Spider cos i've never really noticed digital sounding distortion with my pod. Might just be my preference though. The only advice i can give about that is take some of the mod effect away.

Posted by: MickeM Aug 2 2008, 12:54 PM

For the ones you looked into I'm fond of the Laney and I belive the Blackheart is a killer too, never yet heard it live but according to what people say it's great.

I've only got one objection against combos in general. My Peavey Classic 30 had one of it's power tubes run bad way too early, sit behind the combo and feel what's happening back there when you play. Putting the tubes behind the speaker is a horrible solution in regards to tube life span. The air is trembling and punching the tubes back there and that's what tubes dislike the most an that's why one went out resulting in bad sound.


A couple of other combos for you to concider, Orange AD5 and the Tiny Terror. They look appealing, and the Tiny Terror is available as a head aswell.

Posted by: Starry Manhattan Rain Aug 2 2008, 01:00 PM

Just out of curiousity, what insturctors here at GMC use a multifx to record their lessons? A list would be good if anyone would be prepared to compile one.

It's weird because everyone including me finds the tone of the Spider to be poor, but nearly every review I read raves about the POD. I initially looked into getting a POD X3 or a Boss GT10 but then thought the POD would sound no different to my Spider.

Is it true that the POD sounds like a Spider? Because I know a lot of people then say Flextones and Vettas sound far better than the Spider's. How can one sound better than another, given their all digital amps?

Posted by: ZakkWylde Aug 2 2008, 01:45 PM

I have two words for you: Tiny Terror!

This is a little 15 watt orange tube head or combo that features every tone you like from fender cleans to high gain distortion.

Posted by: Koopid Aug 2 2008, 02:22 PM

The spider amps have cheaper effects processors than the POD's. Vettas have better processors than Flextones and POD's.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Aug 2 2008, 03:21 PM

I use Korg Pandora PX4D,no amp or cab,straight into audio card.

Posted by: Starry Manhattan Rain Aug 3 2008, 03:55 AM

Man and Muris your tone is pretty sweet. I might have to look into the Pandora, although I'm not sure what sound card my PC has. I checked Device Manager and there were a few things including 'Realtek High Definition Audio' but I'm not sure about the Hardware. Any advice on how to determine what sound card I have would also be appreciated.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Aug 3 2008, 10:46 AM

Just go for a card with good analog-digital (A/D) converter,
that's the main thing to record healthy signal on HD.
I have E-MU 1820m , just as a reference.

Posted by: Fran Aug 3 2008, 05:45 PM

If you get a Pandora PX5D you don't have to worry about your soundcard, because it has a built-in USB audio inteface so you can record straight into your computer.

Just in case you might to check out PX5D instead of PX4D!

Posted by: Starry Manhattan Rain Aug 4 2008, 07:10 AM

Thanks Fran, that definitely helps me out a lot and probably saved me quite a bit of money too!

Posted by: mattacuk Aug 4 2008, 08:08 AM

I found processors to be a much better option for home use than small tube combos. They sure sound tempting, but in reality they really didnt improve my tone in the slightest! I sold a £360 Vox tube amp and got myself a Pod X3, much better IMO for practice and recording

Posted by: Starry Manhattan Rain Aug 4 2008, 12:04 PM

Man that is encouraging, but now I'm just stuck as to which multi fx to get and I'm now back where my first "what to get thread" left off. I have heard good things about the POD X3, the Boss GT 10, the Korg PX5D and more. Man I'm just stumped for choice.

I just hope that whatever multi fx thing I get, I could dial in a tone or a preset that rapes my Spider so violently that I feel I have exacted even just a bit of revenge on it for being such a P.O.S, toneless amp.

Also Matt, that is one sweet PGM301you have yourself there. If I could have afforded it, I definitely would have got one instead of my RG1570, although apart from some tuning instability with the trem at times and the crap stock pickups, I can't complain because it is still a sick guitar.

Ok then, advice on the pros and cons of the various multifx's I have listed would be appreciated.

EDIT: I just read up on Guitar Rig 3, and it seems pretty sweet. How does it compare to the other Mulitfx's I have listed and with any of these units hooked up to my computer, could I play and have sound come out my speakers?

Posted by: MickeM Aug 4 2008, 01:12 PM

Now you've moved from small combo all the way to Guitar rig 3. Tubeamp -> Software one could put it

I think you're floating all over the place here, better state what your needs are and start from that end instead. Otherwise the risk is that you'll never end up with what you want.

So, what do you need?
What do you expect from your gear?
How do you plan to use it?

Questions like that.

Posted by: mattacuk Aug 4 2008, 09:17 PM

Glad you like it, it is a perfect instrament IMO! I rarley ever have to tune it, and the sustain is awsome. It is just a very classy act. Your RG1570 is an awsome guitar too though, I would be pleased with it also

With regards to the processors, I know the PX5D is awsome value for money, the Pod X3 is more expensive but loads of tones there also. Like MickeM says, it would be a good idea if you listed what you need and expect from your process/amp.

The problem I find with all "budget" tube amps is they just dont sound as good as you think they will. I found that out the hard way ! Most of them are low gain, some have nice cleans (fender blus junior for example) but most dont do heavy stuff. Me personally Im not a metal head but I love shred ala gilbert, buckethead etc so I need a high gain amp.

To get an amp with the tone I personally want, it would have to be a Mesa Boogie and that is big ££££. The easyiest option for now was of course a Pod, sure they dont sound as good, but its the closest I can get without haveing to rob a bank

In my price range the tube amps I could have had were:

Vox AC15cc ( breaks easy, sounds like the beatles when it works but nothing special)
Fender Blues Junior ( beautiful cleans, but wont do shreds )
Peavey Valve King ( many mixed opinions all over the net, probably not the tone im after)
Laney VC30 (british invasion sound again, good amp but low gain)

So nothing suited me really, I bought a Korg PX4D before xmas and it had the sounds I was after!! I got the pod eventually because I had some spare cash and I liked Marcus's tone so i thought it would be a good move.

So thats my amp story

Posted by: Starry Manhattan Rain Aug 5 2008, 08:12 AM

I too like Marcus' tone, it is truly inspirational. Also, Muris, Harris Sopovic and Zsolt Galambos' tone is awesome too.

Well in terms of what I am looking for, I am demanding pretty high quality tones and effects as I am trying to emulate some pretty amazing tones. I am looking for as much sustain and as warm tones as one can get from a simulator with tones including:

*John Petrucci has influenced my tonal desires immensely, and if I had the cash, I would have a Mesa Mark IV right now. I love his rhythm and lead tones tone on tracks like "Erotomania"," Forsaken", LTE tracks including "When The Water Breaks" (particularly the first solo, I would buy a multi fx if I could get near this tone using it), "Universal Mind" and "Paradigm Shift" and his solo album tracks including "Lost Without You" and "Wishful Thinking".

*Paul Gilbert has been a more recent influence, and tracks like "The Curse of Castle Dragon", "Suite Modale"(how does Paul get this tone, I guessed that maybe he used an ebow?) and his older Racer X tone I also quite like.

Basically, I hate the tone of my Spider and I guessed that a small tube amp would be a big step up from it. I had heard a POD was exactly the same as Spider, minus the speaker and this is why I moved away from the idea of getting a multifx in the first place. I hat that when I am playing melodic Petrucci style solos such as some of those I listed above, I can not get near the smooth almost liquidy tone John can achieve. I know I will not be able to achieve these tones exactly, but I am hoping I can get closer than I have been.

If I plug the POD or another multifx into my Spider on the clean channel, and just use the multifx for all amp, cab, and effects, would it sound half decent or would the Spider colour the tone of the POD heaps?

I would also be interested in getting preset patches that people have made, so which multi fx has the largest community base for doing this?

In terms of running any of the multifx I have listed through my computer, is there anyway I could play through the fx unit and have sound come from my computer speakers?

If I was to get any one of these units, would changing the pickups in my guitar from the stock Ibanez V7-S1-V8 to high end DiMarzio's, maybe an Air Norton and a Steve's Special increase the quality of the tone any further? Or would the fact the multifx is digital and processed make high quality pickups pointless?

Thank you everyone for all your help!

Posted by: MickeM Aug 5 2008, 10:12 AM

"Emulate" and "simulator", as far as ease of use and simulated tones goes I'd recommend the POD X3 Live, I've got that. I used to be a tube amp purist and the reasons for that mosty came of bad experiences and huge disappointment with solid state amps and digital effects in the past. I havn't tried my POD live with a PA - plugging it into a speaker for amp simulation is useless I've heard so I'm not even going there, but amp sim can be turned off to only use the effects - so I wouldn't know how that works. But for headphones listening and for recording, I'm a tube amp purist gone digital.


Only you can be the judge of what a POD or a BOSS can do for you. But if you're looking for a wide variety of amp sounds I don't see another way to go. Check www.netmusicians.org at diffent clips, like for example the sounds you can archive from a simple Blackheart Little Giant tube amp if you put your mind to it. Put a Marshall Guvnr pedal infront of it and you'll have a "Marshall amp" at your hands, without that pedal... it's only that much you can tweak out of an amp with a OD pedal alone. If you're prepared to buy more pedals and/or effects you can do a lot more soundwise, but not so much amp character wise.


I don't know about the old POD or the Spider but the POD X3 has one feature that I think is superior, it's that you can have dual sounds i.e one amp model on the left channel and another amp on the right channel. Gives a certain fullness to the sound. It's a shortcut imo compared to the technique of recording several takes on the exact same track and pan them L and R and mid to reach fullness in sound.
This mentioned is all about recording, I wouldn't know how it sounds live but that wasn't my idea in the first place when I got it, it was only for recording purposes. For live playing I'm not moving away from tube amps.


From what I've read a couple dozen times here in the forum it will sound like crap. People who tried recommend using a sterile sounding keyboard amp or that other amp where you can dock the POD right in, I don't remember the name of it.


I don't know who has the largest, I know POD has at least one community, maybe there are several more, with sound patches and I'm sure BOSS got them too.


If you get a POD X3 know it's a sound interface with various inputs and outputs. Check the back of the POD (or BOSS) and see what fits into your speakers.


Pickups make a difference.


Sounds to me you've got your mind set on a modeler. But mind you can make any sound with a small tube amp if you wish, it's just about how skilled you are and that you know exactly what you have to do to achive fifferent sounds. And miking a live sound is a different story, a soundinterface with amp sim definitly makes life easier.
When miking an amp you can either get a brilliant sound or total crap. If you can isolate the speaker (from outer distubing sounds) and place the mic just right it can be great. Place the mic a bit wrong and you'll get a thin out of phase sound. But again, check the sound examples at www.netmusicians.org as many of these musicians know how to make a good recording.
http://www.netmusicians.org/?section=id&value=979
http://www.netmusicians.org/?section=id&value=1155
You can of course fail with the POD too, things like adding ridicilous amounts of gain because "gain is cool" but then I'm convinced that mistake would be there for when miking an amp aswell.

With a POD X3 (I can't speak for any other pod since I never had one) you'll get an advanced sound interface that will allow you to record guitar/bass/vocals or why not even mic a tube amp?
Good recorded sound.
I put a question mark in regards to how it sounds live. Probably fair ehough.
Easy to make recordings, plug n play.
Easy editing, all the pieces you need to create your sound is right there.

Getting a tube amp you could still record directly into the computer with use of various sound interfaces, like a redbox (see Hughes and Kettner), or the line out if there is one, or mic.
Great recorded sound - if you get it right i.e.
Great live sound.
Takes quite abit of setting up before one can start recording.
Comes with a maintenance cost for the tube changes
At the least you have to get a good OD pedal.
Takes a lot of work and knowledge to make one amp simulate the sound of an other. The character of one amp can't be washed out. You may get close but not as close as an amp sim.

If you have a Marshall tube amp that in itself will make a better Marshall sound than the X3 but if you don't know how to mic or don't have good enough stuff to record proper the X3 will surely make a better recorded Marshall sound than the real deal. If you want to make your Marshall amp sound like a Fender, meh, I guess you could fetch it at break up minus the headroom feel but for cleans, nope not good.

So for recording purposes I'd recommend you the X3, I belive it's a better alternative than the XT because of a couple reasons.
- You get all the add-ons stock
- You have the dual sound and this is purely brilliant for finding the sounds you like.

I don't know if the XT has possibility to record vocals but that's a plus too in my book. The X3 is a complete sound interface. I don't know what Boss GT10 has to offer besides that touch n create sounds display in forms of vocals recording and dual sounds that compares with the X3.

With the X3 you have to accept the fact that it's not a real Mesa Boogie Mark IV or a real Marshall JCM800 or a real Peavey 5150 or a real ENGL Powerball, but it does a real good job prentending to.

Posted by: mattacuk Aug 5 2008, 10:21 AM

What he said ^

Posted by: Starry Manhattan Rain Aug 5 2008, 10:22 AM

Thank you for such as incredibly detailed response!