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GMC Forum _ GEAR & PRODUCTION _ Maple Cap With Veneer

Posted by: bleez Oct 20 2017, 06:25 PM

I thought it was just the more inexpensive guitars which used veneers. I didnt realise that a 'mahogany body with flame maple cap' can also be code for - 'maple cap with flame veneer'. That seems really shady to me, even for a guitar company.
I was looking at ESP, I read on a couple of forums and articles that the E-II has a veneer, they are close to 2K. I really didnt expect to see their models costing £1,700 - £1,900 with a veneer!
The ESP catalogue just states 'flame maple cap' but thats not really true imo. At least PRS state in their catalogue 'maple cap with flame veneer'.
I really like the ESP E-II Eclipse as well but totally put off by the way they dont mention that.
*if it IS a veneer... if not, I take it back and they're awesome and I still want one

So is it just common place to stick a veneer onto a bit of maple and call it a flame maple cap?
It cant be right, not to state that. Maybe its just me.

Posted by: Mertay Oct 20 2017, 06:58 PM

I remember reading somewhere Fender first did that on some models only sold in japan, but only for a limited time as it got bad reaction.

I also dislike how they present them, its like they're trying to use a legal loop-hope for marketing. This actually happens in many products but probably few that we're aware of.

As for veneer, it actually makes sense to me using it on maple. Ibanez for example first indo models were (very thin) veneer on basswood, not only tone but the looks weren't maple-like to me either cause very thin veneer can't give that 3d image we'd like to see. So even with a guitar using veneer, there's still room for quality which might even make the asked prices from ESP reasonable (aside ethics...)

Posted by: bleez Oct 20 2017, 11:29 PM

yeah, veneer can be really cool. It just seems dishonest the way they try to hide it. what else are they not telling me
I dont think there is that much price diff from say a MIJ fender vs MIM fender, not that Ive seen but theres a big diff with E-II vs LTD which, unless Im wrong, is Japan vs Korea.
Also GAK's website is listing the https://www.gak.co.uk/en/esp-ltd-ec1000-emg-vbk-vintage-black/22877 as 'made in Japan, which I dont think it is.... so that's also annoying
I know you could argue about almost every brands price structure but ESP seem more rant worthy than most to me at the moment

Posted by: Mertay Oct 20 2017, 11:47 PM

eheheh yeah the picture behind the headstock writes Korea but the description...

I never got to compare ESP-LTD's, there's never been many of those guitars in my area but I do remember liking the overall neck shapes. As for price points I'm with you, maybe thats why I never really gotten into them.

Posted by: bleez Oct 22 2017, 05:28 PM

the jump in prices across the same type of model is weird. It looks more like they randomly thought up prices that they would like first and then thought about what guitar to sell.
the eclipse style, using thomanns, goes from the korean ltd at £600 - £900 to the E-II MIJ at £1,700 approx. Thats a big jump but you still have the USA eclipse which is probably another grand on top of that. They dont even put their name on the headstock of MIJ, is it not good enough!

I saw a vid from ESP where the guy said Bill Kelliher used his signature LTD on the last Mastodon recording. Im not so sure, based on every studio video I watched he only had the full fat USA one

Posted by: Mertay Oct 22 2017, 06:11 PM

QUOTE (bleez @ Oct 22 2017, 04:28 PM)

hmmm...didn't the USA line started as the mid-price level on ESP? somethings definitly changed since I have last checked out on ESP/LTD's price differences.

Posted by: bleez Oct 22 2017, 08:19 PM

QUOTE (Mertay @ Oct 22 2017, 06:11 PM)

hmmm...didn't the USA line started as the mid-price level on ESP? somethings definitly changed since I have last checked out on ESP/LTD's price differences.

not sure tbh. I think the new E-II used to be esp standard.... but I might be wrong. I hardly see any US models in the usual online places I visit. I see some on ebay for much more than I would spend on an off the shelf guitar. Maybe those US ones are like fender / gibson custom shop types.
Still think the E-II eclipse would be killer, I'd give their flame maple cap veneer a miss though

Posted by: Sensible Jones Oct 24 2017, 03:28 PM

Well, from their Blurb on the ESP Site (this is from the Marine Blue one):-

You won't find many better-looking (or better sounding) guitars than this ESP E-II Eclipse in Marine Blue (also available in See Thru Black Cherry Sunburst). Check out the beauty of the finish over that quilted maple top, with details like a white multi-binding and a matching headstock... it's beyond compare. Powered by a set of EMG 60 (neck) and EMG 81 (bridge) pickups, it's ready for everything from deep and contemplative sounds to the most screaming, aggressive tones imaginable. A set-thru design, it's easy to get quickly up to the highest frets. It features a mahogany body with maple cap, a one=piece mahogany neck, and a rosewood fingerboard with 22 extra-jumbo frets. The E-II Eclipse includes high-end components like Schaller Straplocks, Gotoh locking tuners, and a Gotoh TOM bridge and tailpiece. Like all instruments in our E-II Series, the E-II Eclipse is made in Japan at ESP’s Tokyo factory. Includes hardshell case.

From that I would be expecting a solid Cap, not a veneer. In the Specs it states:- Top - Quilted Maple, as you can see http://www.espguitars.com/products/9998-e-ii-eclipse-qm-marbl?category_id=1963524-eclipse-series-guitars-3.
As far as I'm aware the USA part is very similar to Fender/Gibson Custom Shop, mainly looking after Endorsees and suchlike!

Posted by: Rammikin Oct 24 2017, 05:20 PM

QUOTE (bleez @ Oct 20 2017, 05:25 PM)

So is it just common place to stick a veneer onto a bit of maple and call it a flame maple cap?

I don't think so. These are imprecise terms, but to a luthier, a cap is not a veneer. "Top", on the other hand, I think has a more vague definition than cap or veneer. Have you confirmed it's a veneer and not flame maple cap? If not, maybe ask ESP?

Posted by: bleez Oct 24 2017, 06:06 PM

Ive never read anything from ESP mentioning veneers. I just noticed a few forum posts where people said they were and http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/the-evolution-of-esps-e-ii-brand-605926 albeit a few years ago stated "For example," adds Todd, "the E-II Mystique has a veneer for the figured top, while an ESP Original Mystique has a full thickness carved figured maple top." but on the http://www.espguitars.com/products/10040-e-ii-mystique-qm-nt-marbl?category_id=1963534-mystique-series-guitars-2 for the E-II mystique it just says 'quilted maple'. I dunno if that's the guitar he's referring to in the article, maybe its not.
It just confused me as I thought the E-II range had normal caps.

Posted by: klasaine Oct 24 2017, 06:13 PM

'Cap', as in maple cap, means that the the top of a solid body guitar is not a veneer.
'Top' refers to the entire top (front) of anything acoustic. Steel string, nylon string or jazz arch top. As in solid top or laminated top.

Awhile ago, Fender (94/95 Japan only?) had this process referred to foto-flame top. It was basically a decal (laser print photo) of a flamed maple finish. I'm pretty sure some Epis and Ibbys also do this.

Posted by: Rammikin Oct 24 2017, 07:13 PM

QUOTE (bleez @ Oct 20 2017, 05:25 PM)

I thought it was just the more inexpensive guitars which used veneers. I didnt realise that a 'mahogany body with flame maple cap' can also be code for

I think you meant to say "Top" here, not "Cap"? If so, you're right, "Top" does not mean "Cap".

Posted by: bleez Oct 24 2017, 08:16 PM

yeah, I do tend to mix up the words cap and top. Im learning the difference
so if its 'flame maple cap' then we assume no veneer but a flame maple top is probably a veneer because otherwise it would say 'cap'?
On the ESP site all the LTD and E-II state 'flame or quilted top' in the descriptions. so... veneers then.

annoyingly, on ESP when they list the specifications its just -
Body - Mahogany
Top - Flame Maple
but they do this for all the models, even the US ones where presumably the tops are caps

I emailed ESP earlier. Ive become far too obsessed about this, Im starting to hate myself

** EDIT **
Well, shit. ESP replied to me already!
They said "The E-II Eclipse models will feature a 15mm top, not a veneer."

How thick is a cap?

Posted by: Rammikin Oct 24 2017, 09:00 PM

QUOTE (bleez @ Oct 24 2017, 07:16 PM)

How thick is a cap?

How long is a piece of string?

15mm is pretty thick.

Posted by: klasaine Oct 25 2017, 02:42 AM

Traditionally, the maple cap or top on a Les Paul Standard is (on average) between 12.7 (1/2") and 15 mm depending on the exact thickness, contours and pkup routs of the mahogany body. And believe me, they vary a lot. the cap or top will be thicker in the center and thin out towards the edges. Some LPs and Epis can have a top as thick as 20mm (3/4").

You can buy maple tops in various cuts ... http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-wood/electric-guitar-woods/figured-maple

Posted by: bleez Oct 25 2017, 08:40 AM

so a 15mm top is decent enough then
people on forums dont half talk a lot of bollocks sometimes, not this forum obviously but those other forums I was on ESP forums where people were adamant E-II was a veneer.
Still, that was a fun rabbit hole I disappeared down for a few days

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Oct 25 2017, 12:23 PM

I have been drooling at this one (Ibanez AR420) :
http://www.ibanez.com/products/eg_detail17.php?year=2017&area_id=3&cat_id=1&series_id=8&data_id=462&color=CL01

It says cap in the description but I have read elsewhere it's more of a veneer. Any thoughts?

Posted by: bleez Oct 25 2017, 01:30 PM

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Oct 25 2017, 12:23 PM)

Im sure The AR's will be veneer ontop of maple. Lovely looking guitar.

Posted by: Rammikin Oct 25 2017, 02:15 PM

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Oct 25 2017, 11:23 AM)

I think you might be making the same mistake Bleez made. The catalog says "Flamed Top", not "Flamed Cap". That leaves open the possibility it is a veneer.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Oct 26 2017, 08:44 AM

So are you saying it might be a veneer on top of a maple cap on top of mahogany body? If so that is alright by me.

I am just worried it is mahogany + veneer (with no real cap).

Posted by: bleez Oct 26 2017, 12:28 PM

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Oct 26 2017, 08:44 AM)

So are you saying it might be a veneer on top of a maple cap on top of mahogany body? If so that is alright by me.

I am just worried it is mahogany + veneer (with no real cap).

the http://forum.ibanez.com/yaf_postst87123_difference-between-the-AR-320--AR-325--AR-420.aspx, from a while ago :
"It would be a veneer of Maple or Bubinga on the Mahogany body"

"The AR guitars have a veneer of REAL wood. It isn't a large piece of Maple or Bubinga that could be considered a "cap". So the top of the guitar is not a fake wood, or something printed to look like flamed maple or bubinga, it is ACTUAL wood. The piece used on the top is smaller than a cap and will affect the sound less than a cap would."

If its a deal breaker, might be worth an email.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Oct 26 2017, 01:20 PM

Ok cool - this is what i suspected.

I am not quite ready to pull the trigger. But yes - to me this would be a deal breaker. A thick maple cap is part of the Les Paul sound to me.

Posted by: klasaine Oct 26 2017, 02:57 PM

QUOTE (bleez @ Oct 26 2017, 04:28 AM)

The piece used on the top is smaller than a cap and will affect the sound less than a cap would."[/b]

That's a backwards way of saying it for sure.
As Kris mentioned, the maple cap or top on a mahogany body (LP, PRS, etc.) is absolutely part of the sound. It's what gives the bit of snap and note definition to an otherwise darker sounding axe.

Posted by: bleez Oct 26 2017, 03:32 PM

QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 26 2017, 02:57 PM)

That's a backwards way of saying it for sure.

d'you think these guys know exactly how thick the (real wood!) veneer is but just try to answer without really saying it, isnt a veneer like about 1mm or less?
reading between the lines are they just basically saying " it has a 1mm veneer on top of the mahogany body"

Posted by: klasaine Oct 26 2017, 04:07 PM

Veneer is thin and primarily decorative whether it be on furniture or a guitar. It's a way of making a cheap piece of wood (or any other material) look better.
They can spin it all they want.

Nothing wrong with all mahogany guitars. LP specials and juniors, Firebirds, SGs, are all mahogany bodies and they sound great. Firebirds are bright as fuck - but that's more due to their hardware, body thickness, neck/headstock and pickups. Angus Young is an SG player and his tone is pretty balls to the wall but again, an SG is a unique animal due to it's overall construction.

A solid mahogany body with a maple cap of around 12.7mms is the standard bearer of hard rock - Les Paul. It takes all that cool grind, balls and warmth of the mahogany and adds some definition in the bass and touch of high end snap.

Posted by: Mertay Oct 26 2017, 04:30 PM

Very hard to guess on pictures but if you guys ever bump into one (it was very popular), this and similar indo ibanez guitars are a good example of thin but nicely applied veneer;

When changing angle, the flame visually stays the same. With real maple caps (no matter the brand though Gibson LP's are a bit better at this) you should see the flame change shape...the reason is thin wood can't soak properly or enough paint to give that visual depth. But if the veneer gets thicker then paper it gets tricky and you'll need spec. info.

Also just for info; thick maple seriously increases the guitars weight so if you have back pain issues, keep in mind.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Oct 27 2017, 08:19 AM

QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 26 2017, 03:57 PM)

Agreed - and marketing a guitar as an LP alternative without a real maple cap does not feel completely honest. The cap is def there for a reason.