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Posted by: Stevie·Ray·Vaughn Aug 4 2007, 04:46 AM

Hey, If im not aloud to do this, im sorry, and you can delete this, but i just wanted to show everyone this. A friend of mine showed me this and it seriously changed my oppinion about 9/11 .. you just have to watch this. Again, sorry im if not aloud to do this.

BTW: Its and hour and a half long so u gota be patient ... its well worth it though... the first 5-10 minutes r pretty pointless but cool to watch anyways.

ENJOY!

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change&total=2914&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0



might wana go into full screen to watch this

Posted by: Mark Schiewe Aug 4 2007, 05:20 AM

I'm sick of these conspiracy theories about 9/11.

Posted by: kahall Aug 4 2007, 05:26 AM

Yeah, me to as that is all they are.......theories, and not even good ones. UFO's landing in my yard are more likely.



and oh Stevie....

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/3491861.html

Posted by: Hungus Aug 4 2007, 05:44 AM

I dont think this is really appropriate here.. its just going to stir people up eh

Posted by: Robin Aug 4 2007, 05:45 AM

I've seen those Loose change videoes, at first I actually believed it, but its all crap.

Posted by: shredmandan Aug 4 2007, 06:00 AM

I agree
Even though we have a forum to discuss anything,politics and goverment is a very touchy subject and gmc members are in different country's all over the world so i say just leave this topic out of here.It does stur up alot of arguments .I dont mind talking about politics but i respect that many other's dont like to and it's just to many different opinions that are easily taken out of control.

Posted by: AliMo Aug 4 2007, 06:24 AM

Agreed



nice guitar btw

Posted by: Smikey2006 Aug 4 2007, 06:49 AM

Hold me back... please... this stuff.. sickens me.. unfortunatly to all who think the government hate us this much.... they really don't... they were real planes hitting real towers who had real people in them and it was real terrorists end of story.. now.. im leaving..

(FYI this is my biggest pet peeve.. the only thing that pisses me off.. stuff like this )

Posted by: Kaneda Aug 4 2007, 10:55 AM

If it changed your opinion, then you have to watch it again, with your critical mind switched on, and do a tiny bit of research. Loose Change is a great example... of how to make propaganda in the exact way that, once again (like the reptilians earlier), the film maker claims "the media" are doing. It's so stuffed with factual errors, logical fallacies, concealment of evidence and dubious rhetorical techniques that it's not even possible to count them all while watching in real time

I spent a fair amount of time on another forum debunking just about every statement in those 1 1/2 hours. Not going to do that again. Besides, plenty of debunking to be found on the web, if you bother to look And a lot of it can be dismissed by simple common sense.

Posted by: fkalich Aug 4 2007, 11:13 AM

if i am walking along and see (or smell) some dog poop, I step to the side. Now it is possible that there is a diamond inside the dog poop, but I consider too unlikely for me to stop and take the time to do a close examination.

Posted by: Kaneda Aug 4 2007, 11:20 AM

I do (or did) one more thing - try to warn people about the dog poop, because - also for my own sake - I don't want it spread all over the place because they have to go digging in it

Posted by: muris Aug 4 2007, 11:21 AM

Posted by: Ayen Aug 4 2007, 11:33 AM

[Post removed by me, looking back on it, it would just start up a big fight, PM or Email me and I'll send you the post if you want.]

Posted by: fkalich Aug 4 2007, 11:34 AM

and that is good.

Posted by: MickeM Aug 4 2007, 12:33 PM

Politics and religion are topics I avoid. It may start quarrels or in the worst case split a forum in half. And I don't want it to happen here.

I'm staying away from this discussion since I don't think it even belongs as off topic in a guitar forum. It's ON topic at several other forums, just not here.

Posted by: Stevie·Ray·Vaughn Aug 4 2007, 06:11 PM

I wasnt sure if i was aloud to do this so sorry ... i just thought id share the video ... sorry

Posted by: Kaneda Aug 4 2007, 06:24 PM

Wouldn't really say it doesn't belong in off topic. After all, off topic's purpose IS for discussing anything that isn't related to the main forum subject, with the people you already know from the rest of the forum - that goes whether the forum is about guitars, motorcycles or web development. It's about being free to discuss other topics with people who share your interests. Because this is a nicely active forum, with plenty of interesting people, that's an important function. Wouldn't want that to be restrained by various ideas from different people about what goes or not.

That said, yes, I for one can testify that this discussion tends to lead to quarrels - not because it's about politics, rather because these theories have more to do with religious debate than political debate. The facts are there to dismiss something like Loose Change entirely. Arguing against those facts and for this conspiracy is an act of faith, not rationale. And such acts tend to end in quarrels.

However, "censoring" or "being careful" or "avoiding" in fear of quarrels and confrontations is not my way, in real life or on forums Even if I tend to be more polite and a lot more helpful on forums

Posted by: fkalich Aug 4 2007, 08:20 PM

i agree with both of you really. it would not be so bad here, to discuss such things. a lot of people here are obviously pretty intelligent. also most of us don't really try to hide our real identity. That helps, when people know who you are, or could probably figure it out, well you have to behave to an extent.

Problem is, to many people just looking for a fight, and they will use politics as a vehicle to let out inner hostility, like kicking a dog. I expect that if kaneda, mickem, and fkalich, and some others started discussing, it would be reasonable and intelligent. however, this is not an exclusive club, it would get out of hand with some turning it into the level of a primary school play ground, we would have Andrew and Kris here pretty quickly.

Let me give you an example. If we got into a Bush discussion, I might bring up this analogy. In World War II the allies began the offensive in North Africa. The aim was to vanquish Hitler, a noble aim. However there were also some secondary ulterior motives. In Roosevelt's case, he was concerned about upcoming mid term elections and wanted to get boots on the ground for political purposes (in fact he pressured his top general to begin the campaign before election day, the general refused). In the case of Churchill, he was concerned about the British empire in Africa and the Mid east, and wanted to take steps to assure its survival. But still, the primary motivation was noble. But there are always secondary motivations.

I think what I am getting at is clear, in terms of what is going on today with Bush. I don't think Churchill was an evil man. In fact, he saved the world, when he refused to give into the pressure to capitulate in May 1940 and turn Britain in to Vichy England. Had he done that, Hitler would have ruled the entire world, I am pretty sure of that. But Churchill also had his selfish side. But he saved the world, and that is not so bad. That is how I discuss things, use historical comparisons. You may still not agree, but you can't deny solid history.

One has to keep in mind though, that today, how many under the age of 30 even know who Winston Churchill was? To busy reading about reptile aliens to waste time on stuff like that.

Posted by: Kaneda Aug 4 2007, 08:45 PM

Hey, I'm under 30 Churchill was that... dude... in World War II.

Agree, as always. I may not agree on the Bush/Churchill analogy, I may not like what Bush is doing to the world at large, but I do agree that Bush's primary motive for the war was most likely noble, if misguided.

This is the exact main problem with conspiracy theories. They take focus away from the actual, current, pressing issues (and their historical counterparts), and turn the discussion into a joke. They tend to be sported with slogans like "question authority" and whatnot, but the irony is, the people who believe in them don't question anything.

If you want to question authority (and I'm a huge supporter of that idea ), why not question the real, documented actions of real people?

Should be said that the main reason I won't go into actual discussion on 9/11 is that it's a waste of time. As mentioned, I don't mind quarrels and confrontations, but this always gets to border (and cross that border) on religious fanaticism in terms of arguments, and noone gets anything out of it.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Aug 4 2007, 08:53 PM

That's quite a comparison! Good point - except I would exchange "diamond" for something else.

If the discussion is polite I think it's ok and can enlighten or endarken, depending on your perspective!

Also, poo examination can be a great way of getting a political standpoint, regardless of the amount of diamonds found. In a global perspective - I think the biggest threat to us all is the lack of communication.

At our forum, people from all over the world can discuss big issues politely - that's pretty cool!

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Aug 4 2007, 09:06 PM

Well honestly. Idc what any theory says or what should have happened and what not. The bottom line is. Many people died in 9/11 and no stupid theory or witty politician can bring them back.


- John