Interesting Research About Talent. |
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Dec 2 2007, 11:48 AM
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I'm not surprised. I guess the only musical "talent" you can have is absolute pitch...
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Dec 2 2007, 01:56 PM
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I agree, i dont believe in natural talent. Just hard work and practice.
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Dec 2 2007, 02:56 PM
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Well, i do believe in talent because there are some kids, like 7 years old kids who can do crazy stuff on instruments with almost NO hours of practice.
Don't even try to convince me wrong - it won't work. Let's just state our opinions here 
-------------------- "It isn't how many years you have been playing, it's how many hours." -- Prashant Aswani "PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!" -- Michael Angelo Batio Check out my video lessons and instructor board! |
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Dec 2 2007, 03:39 PM
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I believe in talent.
I also believe in hard work. Of the 2 of them I would rate hard work as being the most important, I think talent can have an accelerating effect but won't necessarily get you somewhere you wouldn't get to by hard work on its own. I am a case in point - I have a very good musical ear, I always remember having it, it was never taught to me. It helps me understand the relationship between notes, chords and harmonies without working at it. When I was young, I never understood why my contemporaries couldn't hear when they were playing wrong notes, it really confused me. Now here's the downside - as a result I became lazy. I never really had structured or formalized practice, I just played for fun, and became reasonably good quite quickly, but never really dug in and practiced hard. Now I am about 10% of the guitarist I could have been if I actually worked hard at it from an early age. GMC has inspired me to work hard now, but I have wasted a lot of time. So, talent or no talent, hard work is absolutely essential and will get you where you need to be. Talent just means you get more bang for your buck in my opinion. The single thing I liked most about GMC was Kris saying " I don't have any talent - I worked my way to it" - if you only learn one thing from GMC, it should be that hard work is indispensable! -------------------- Check out my Instructor profile
Live long and prosper ... My Stuff: Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 Bass Acoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 Nylon Effects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBlood Amps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab |
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Dec 2 2007, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Dec 2 2007, 10:06 AM)  When i see a 7 year old write something as significant as "Whispering A Prayer", or "Powerslave" or "Painkiller", then ill retract my statement Heh, yes that would be something wouldn't it? I think that proves the point though, 7 year olds don't write that kind of stuff because it takes experience and hard work. Talent gives you a springboard but can't supply 20 years of experience. -------------------- Check out my Instructor profile
Live long and prosper ... My Stuff: Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 Bass Acoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 Nylon Effects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBlood Amps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab |
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Dec 2 2007, 05:19 PM
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Interesting thread
 .The research to me sounds like a typical 'nature vs nurture' type argument. If it is it's one that has been around for many years and many behavioural scientists, sociologists and indeed psychologists have argued for a more middle ground rather then a polarised dyad. To suggest that we have a simple causal relationship here is, to me, somewhat tenuous. It isn't the sort of psychological experiment that one might conduct in a lab under test conditions - thus it is a 'real life' one and as such there are many variables involved that either need to be excluded or accounted for. To do this research adequately, as far as I can see, would require large scale longitudinal research over many years. Certainly one might argue that if the sample size was sufficiently large that one might then mathematically/statistically start to ameliorate these; or similarly one might argue that given a suitable model that one may then start to statistically look for relationships and be able to reduce uncertainty and control for the degrees of freedom. However given the form of stats involved herein there has long been an argument that such research becomes partial, subjective and arguably flawed: it leaves it's safe ground as a professed 'hard science' and enters the more murky waters of a social science. Personally I don't think there's a problem with this move - indeed the research psychologists I get on academically with tend to see them selves as social psychologists rather then 'hard science' - BUT what is often apparent is that much here fails to account for its own methodological blind spot vis partiality and subjectivity. Speaking as someone trained in philosophy but with an earlier background in the hard sciences what passes for methodology is too often what I would term 'method' and not 'methodology' - it merely describes what was done and how but fails to come to terms with why and fails to reflect upon itself. 'Method' here is what is termed as surface description. If this research adequately accounts for methodology then great - but I somehow doubt it - without it though, to me, it acquires limited currency. I should say that I'm not attacking psychology or research psychologists rather what I am saying is that any research methodology needs to account for reflexively; yet little does. On a much lighter note personally I tend to agree with Robin's point (and encompass the middle ground) but also see Pavel's point. Opportunity is important - and being exposed to music during your early years and having the opportunity to play with different instruments is important. One thing I was told many years ago was that everyone can play a musical instrument - the key is finding the instrument right for you. You often see children struggle with an instrument and then blossom when they take up a different one. Being surrounded by and hearing different music throughout our lives must surely have a positive affect - you get used to hearing particular note relationships, chord sequences, drum patterns and so on. Nonetheless some children do seem to have a better sense of time from a very early age. Of my wife's two nieces, aged 3 and 6, the 3 year old has a much better sense of time then the 6 year old - yet both have been exposed to the same music and have the same opportunities to play instruments. Arguably the 6 year old has had 3 years more here and is 3 years more 'developed' so it should be the 6 year old who is better but not in this case. She has problems clapping out a slow, basic 4/4 - destined to be a drummer I guess - yet her little sister can follow much more complicated patterns. The 3 year old just seems to have more talent then the 6 year old. I'm not claiming this as de facto truth - it is merely observation and, as Pavel very rightly says, my opinion .Cheers, Tony -------------------- Get your music professionally mastered by anl AES registered Mastering Engineer. Contact me for Audio Mastering Services and Advice and visit our website www.miromastering.com
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Dec 2 2007, 05:32 PM
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THere are a lot of prodigy children, but very very small number of them goes through puberty and remains a great musician. Everyone can look in a 6 year old and be amazed with his talent, bu ta small number of this children becomes a genius in terms that he creates something for the future generation (like Mozart did for example). So i do beleive in talent, but human beings are a lot more complicated than it seems. I also strongly beleive in hard work as a foundation of any type success. Without hardwork - no success.
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) I have a far more advanced concept of music than he does despite having less musical perception to begin with.|
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Dec 2 2007, 08:03 PM
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Hard work, ha? Sure is! But i have a guy in my city (22 years old), who is practicing a lot, but he can't play a thing except for simple riffing. He's practicing sweeps for 2 years now - now result! He sucks at it!
How would you explain that? -------------------- "It isn't how many years you have been playing, it's how many hours." -- Prashant Aswani "PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!" -- Michael Angelo Batio Check out my video lessons and instructor board! |
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Dec 2 2007, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE (Pavel @ Dec 2 2007, 01:03 PM) Hard work, ha? Sure is! But i have a guy in my city (22 years old), who is practicing a lot, but he can't play a thing except for simple riffing. He's practicing sweeps for 2 years now - now result! He sucks at it! How would you explain that? His problem could be something like this: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/blog/?p=102 --------------------  "Remember to live, eat, sleep and breathe music for the mind, play from your heart and never be swayed by the current trends"- Rusty Cooley My gear: Marshall Valvstate Digitech Distortion Factory Jackson RR24 (Randy Rhoads) Ibanez RG2550e A ripoff brand acoustic guitar and a Yamaha Classical guitar :) |
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Dec 2 2007, 10:23 PM
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This topic is very dear to me and I would be very interested in reading what everyone has got to say about it (instructors as well as students). I have taken the liberty to paste what I said about it in this thread one year ago.
----------------------------- I don't believe talent exists. And if it does no one can ever objectively determine whether you have it or not. Not me, your mum or your music teacher. The only thing I can tell when I hear somebody's recording is if I liked it or not. I cannot tell whether I liked it because they have practiced or if it's because they have talent or if it's a combination of both. Unfortunately no scientific studies of rock n roll have been made yet - I suspect that's why there is an awful amount of bull going around on this topic. That is also why I like to make a stand against the whole talent thing. Now here is something I do know - I exposed my playing and music to a lot of people in my early practicing stage and did not get any acknowledgement. This wasn't once or twice - there was an obvious trend. Now, I could have chosen to do as many people would have - acknowledge defeat... ("I don't have sense of timing, musicality...talent!) But I didn't - that's when the fun begun. I told myself s**w them - they are speaking about talent as an excuse to why they never got anywhere, I won't let that happen to me. I sat down and practiced and now I make a living of my playing - thanks to motivation not talent (I will never know if I had any - but if I had listened to what others said, I wouldn't be were I am today and surely would have thought of myself as talentless.) Now recently I have got to hear "Sure kristofer you can play guitar - that's your talent" - (where were these people 10 years ago??!!) - "but don't think you can write and sing songs"!! Ok so there are still a lot of ignorant people to convince. At the age of 23 I could barely sing a note in pitch - but is that going to stop me? Recently I have practiced singing and songwriting - you will find my most recent attempt here. I can tell you that tune alone has been enough to prove my point to some people. However I intend to take this very much further and keep developing my singing and songwriting through new strategies. I like to use my brain and not my "talent". ...talent, an extremely miss-used word. How about we throw it in the bin and substitute it with the following ( English grammar experts please fill me out here): motivation, starting-early, early-positive-stimulation Now if you lack the the "early" parts no worries - that's why we have gmc. --Kris PS Awesome discussions we got going on! 
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