Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: JVM Aug 16 2007, 03:18 PM

I'm on the verge of buying a vox valvetronix hybrid amp, I think it sounds pretty good and I like the variety it gives. It's also very loud (100w). But I am really feeling a twinge of guilt, though I'm not sure if that's the right word for it!

You see my friends, I feel a pull to go the tube route. I'm not exactly sure why - maybe andrew, you can help me out with this, as you have been converted yourself I love the variety the vox would give me, and even my dad who has played guitar for 40 years, and a self proclaimed tube fan with a very nice vintage fender 212, says he likes it. But on the other hand, I feel like by doing all of these modeling things, they're compromising the quality somewhere.

I'm not exactly sure, I can't really point out the differences between tube and solid amps if just listening to them (amp newb here). I know most people agree that tube is better, and even though I can't completely hear it myself, it just FEELS right.

I'm looking at these carvins:

http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=VINTAGE16&CID=VINT

http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=BELAIR&CID=GA

http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=NOMAD&CID=GA

The first and the second ones appeal to me the most.

Pros:

- Made in the USA - almost all of the common amps found in a guitar shop in the under 600 range seem to be made outside of the US, and I'm dubious of their quality. These looks sturdily built and all that.

- Tweed is cool

- From the sound clips, they sound awesome. Not that much variety, but that's okay, I can get pedals. The only thing the vox has on it in the sound department is the high gain stuff, and delay. I already have a nice wah pedal, and I wouldn't mind buying a delay pedal or some high gain distortion pedals to go along with them (partly because of the next reason). They also has built in reverb, so that's cool.

- Price. It costs less than or about equal to the valvetronix model I'm looking at.

Cons:

- wattage. But that's okay for reasons specified above. And two of them reach 50 watts, which I know is more than enough.

- variety - but thats also okay for reasons specified above.

- I haven't tried them, and I don't know where to go to try them I think if I could try em and just affirm that they sounds as good as I hope they do, I'd buy one in a snap.

HELP ME GMC!

[edit] sorry, I meant the first and second ones appeal to me the most. I got it mixed up and thought I put the belair last.

Posted by: blindwillie Aug 16 2007, 07:57 PM

No help here. Just more questions.
The Vintage16 looked interesting. When I buy a tube amp it will probably, as I feel for it now, be a low wattage amp with a bluesy tone.

I don't understand the prices.
$795 is the price in a store and $399 is the price ordering online?

Posted by: Otto Aug 16 2007, 08:37 PM

I'm not exactly sure, I can't really point out the differences between tube and solid amps if just listening to them (amp newb here). I know most people agree that tube is better, and even though I can't completely hear it myself, it just FEELS right.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


:Try to put a wah pedal infront of a "digital pre/amp" vs a real amp... hmm ?
:Try to "mute" the tone with the volyme control on your guitar on a digital vs the real thing

: never end a reply with no tube link its a sin... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T54lGP29Oes

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 16 2007, 09:11 PM

Yes I am travelling this exact path ...

The most important thing to realize about tube amps is that they only sound their best when played at close to the max volume. If you get a 50 watt amp, be prepared to play it at ear bleeding levels to get the best out of it.

If you want something for practice and/or recording, get something a LOT smaller - the Vintage 16 will still be very loud. In general tube wattages are louder than solid state wattages, and unlike solid state you can't turn them down without sacrificing tone. This means you need to really thnk about what you will use it for.

I wanted an amp for practice and recording, the one I am building is about 10 watts, but I still think it will be too loud. For comparison, a 30 watt AMP on full at 10 feet is as loud as a jet plane (not scientific but you get the idea)

So, step one is to loose the predisposition with power and be honest about where and how you will use it.

BTW, the Vintage 16 was high on my list because of its versatility and 5W mode, it ticks a lot of boxes. Never played one though.

Hey, why don't you build one

Posted by: blindwillie Aug 16 2007, 11:04 PM

Ye, I'm following your progress with interest. That might be the way to go but I'm not sure I haev the knowledge or time for it. Judging by the advices in your "blog" there is lot's to know, think about and know how to calculate.

For me the amp is for practicing. Power is definitly not what I want. It's the tone. The tone!
At very moderate volumes. I'll follow these threads carefully.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 17 2007, 12:04 AM

Yeah, don't worry about the calculations too much - I am building an existing design this time, not trying to design something myself, so it is fairly well defined.

Posted by: tonymiro Aug 17 2007, 12:22 AM

Carvin amps are generally pretty good and also pretty reliable. If you buy direct from Carvin they're good value as well JVM. Sadly in Europe we have to pay full list plus import and all the rest. Because of that I can remember seeing a Belaire years ago that was priced about the same as Vox AC30 - not a fair contest really.

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Hardtail Aug 17 2007, 12:25 AM

Hey I just wanted to point out that wattage translated to volume is COMPLETELY different from solid state to tube. I would wager a guess that a 50 watt tube amp will get MUCH louder than a 100 watt solid state.

My Junior (15 watts) almost doubles the volume of my Studio 85 (65 watts). A good case in point: people tend to not like the Fender Blues Deluxe because they can't get it loud enough for tube saturation (distortion) without their ears bleeding and it is only rated at 40 watts but is tube driven.

The Belair and Nomad both will be so loud you will never want for more volume and I'd guess you'll rarely ride the volume past 4!

Hope that helps!

Hardtail

Doh!

I didn't see that Andrew already covered everything in my previous post hehe

Hardtail

Posted by: JVM Aug 17 2007, 02:15 AM

Okay, so I'm assuming that to really get the full effect out of the nomad or belair, I would have to push the volume right? At about what level would it naturally overdrive?

Is the vintage 16 loud enough to play with a drummer, in a live small gig situation?

I'm thinking I would probably go for the vintage 16 because I would never really have need to push a belair or nomad up to their full volumes, and if I never do that, I would lose much of the tone right? So as long as the vintage 16 can do what I said above, it seems like a good deal to me.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 17 2007, 02:20 AM

When its about as loud as it can get - when it overdrives it doesn;t reallly have anywhere to go so even if you turn it up further (maybe because you have the preamp set high, or maybe have a high output guitar) it CAN'T get any louder, just more distorted.



I would think so but I am guessing here.



I think that's right - get a 50 when you start gigging in 500 seat theatres

Posted by: MickeM Aug 17 2007, 03:16 AM

I think 16 might be a bit too little for live gigging and fighting hard hitting drummers with, or rather the combination of a 16W amp and 1 speaker. Problem with gigging is that when you soundcheck you should turn the volume up a bit further because usually you soundcheck in an empty room, later when there's people, cheering and plenty of drunk noice you dont want your sound to get stuck in the first row. A 4x12 cabinet or a 2x12 combo will move some more air to help solve that problem. So let me change that first sentence, 16W with enough speaker elements would likely do.

For reference some of my gigging experience;
30W with one 12" speaker I think, for a large room, that was too little, it's likely a 4x12 would have made the difference. 30W in a small room full of people is perfect
50W with a 4x12 in small pub size room I had to hold back the volume.
15-30W with a half stack should be alright for small room parties and small pubs.

And after all 16W compares as 80% loudness of a 30W so it's loud alright (or more than 55% loudness of a 100W). 3W would make 50% loudness of a 30W amp.

I never gigged with less than 30W so I wouldn't know from own experience... well, except for a 20W solid state *ashamed* ...but that was then, all forgotten.

Posted by: JVM Aug 17 2007, 03:30 AM

So, you think with the 1x12 it just doesnt have enough power to actually push the air enough for a gig? If that's the case, it does have a speaker output I think. Or I could mic it or something?

Or, do you have any other suggestions for a good tube amp that would be good for gigging without being, at the same time, too loud? Do you think the belair and nomads would be too loud (thats the impression I'm getting)?

Or could I for example buy the 212 extension cab, or even the 1x12, and if so, would that only affect the amount of air being pushed, or would it also be louder?

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 17 2007, 03:56 AM

Miking through the PA is definatley worth thinking about - you have your small amp for tone and monitoring and let the PA do the heavy lifintg ... if you KNOW you have a PA at the gig or have one of your own that is.

Posted by: MickeM Aug 17 2007, 04:06 AM

Getting a 1x12 extension speaker is useless since when you connect it you disconned the built in speaker.
I have gigged with a 30W and had problems getting the sound spread in a large room. The sound rather gets beamed in one direction.

A 4x12 will not be louder but more efficient. A 1x12 can sound louder if you face it, but if you stand 30 feet away the 4x12 will be better heard.
The Belair and nomads will be plenty loud, not that I ever played any of them I don't know Carvin very well at all for that matter but just looking at the wattage. So they will be loud but nothing is stopping you from lowering the volume... except for that the sound will suffer.

And you know, it also depends on what band you're in. Some rehearse so crazy loud it's ridicilous, we play loud but what some do... I don't understand how they can stand the sound level themselves.

Between the ones you linked to I'd choose the Belair. It's got 2x12, fx-loop (which the Vintage 16 lacks) and you seem to have some kind of soak control in all of them so maybe 50w doesn't have to bee too much so to say. I suggest you check what the soak does to the 50 watters!

So back to rehearsing and gigging, as mentioned I never gigged with a 16W, 30W 1x12 was too weak, 30W + 4x12 I suspect is good. 50W small room is too loud. 16W + 4x12 I guess is fine. Would be nice to hear from someone who gigged with a 15W tube amp.

Posted by: Hardtail Aug 17 2007, 04:06 AM

My Blues Junior (15 watts) is loud enough to cut through the loudest drummer like butter. It will also easily fill a room with about a 200 to 250 person capacity depending on structure acoustics. So yeah, I'd guess the 16 will be plenty loud.

Like MickeM said though the 1x12 will be slightly directional. Where I play I am about 30 feet (9 to 10 meters) from the first audience member so they get washed over pretty well. If I were to play in larger venues I would simply buy a 2x12 extension cab and run the junior through that. Any larger venue or concert hall you'll want to be miked and put through the PA anyway.

Hardtail

Posted by: MickeM Aug 17 2007, 04:09 AM

Yes, that will work for sure! All you need your amp for is to put it behind you and keep it loud enough for you to hear yourself in it. And you'll hear the rest of the band in a monitor in front of you, it's a pretty wierd feeling the first time.

EDIT: And then you don't have to worry about cutting through the first rows of flesh that will absorb the sound. It's someone elses problem and that someone (sound techician) will have his speakers in the scieling or similar.

Posted by: Hardtail Aug 17 2007, 04:13 AM

Another suggestion is to place it in front of you if the stage allows it. This way you and the drummer can hear it and the Audio Technician isn't fighting stage volume while he is trying to set the master levels. This is what I do and I can REALLY crank it and the sound guy loves me cause I don't color what the audience is hearing if that all makes sense.

Hardtail

Posted by: MickeM Aug 17 2007, 04:16 AM

Ok, cool, so there we have it, 15W will do great!

It's easy to be fooled and think 5W or 15W is nothing, I need 200W at least, but the 15W will likely perform better since it can be pushed... unless you're playing the Yankee Stadium

JVM, if you need a solo boost just use an EQ or an Overdrive.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 17 2007, 04:20 AM

Heh, these Amp threads are fun now - I used to ignore them MickeM, you've created a monster!!!

Posted by: MickeM Aug 17 2007, 04:35 AM

"Story of my life, from POD guy to tube amp builder in one month"

I look forward to your (and mine) amp project. One day I want to build my own 18W Marshall (or a 100W Superlead) I ruled that option out this time and decided on a beginners kit instead of aiming too high and fail miserably. I count on learninf plenty from your project

For me up till now it's been all about tone, now I find it thrilling to find out what's inside an amp.

Posted by: Hardtail Aug 17 2007, 04:35 AM

That is exactly what I do. I use a Boss SD-1 Super Overdrive with the Rick Franklin Pro Mod. I can basically switch the Op-Amp chip in the pedal for a smooth TS808 sound or leave Rick's double chip in for a screaming overdrive. Either way, his mod takes all of the coloring out of the pedal (that's a good thing to me) and leaves the overdrive fairly transparent. A GREAT option for single channel amps that need 2 gain switching on the fly.

Hardtail

Posted by: JVM Aug 17 2007, 04:45 AM

I'm also watching some fenders - blues junior, hot rod deluxe at the moment, on ebay.

Posted by: Hardtail Aug 17 2007, 04:51 AM

My buddy has a hot rod deluxe. Great Fender clean sound. We couldn't get it loud enough to hear its true tube heartbeat at his house but overall a very good amp with good reviews.

I've become a bit of a Fender fan lately so I'll definitely give those a vote

Hardtail

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 17 2007, 04:57 AM

Well, remember I'm only doing this to prove you wrong about tube amps

I'm kidding, I really hope to find the tone I am looking for this way.



Very sensible - starting simple is a definate good idea, which is why I chose as I did. Very interested to hear how yours turns out - 0.5W is probably about ideal for recording if you get the right tone - I thnk mine will be a little on the loud side, but we'll see.

I am already eyeing http://vtg-amps.com/Melissa.htmlup for my next build - a very versatile looking amp. Will be a lot harder as I'll have to do all they layout myself, but by then I'll have some experience. There are some other possibilities as well over at AX84 - they are working on a whole series of mix and match preamps and power amps. Might be possible to build a head with say 2W power for practice and recording, then swithch in 50W for gigging. I'm also looking at various power soak options as well - this is a lot fo fun!

Great thing about tube amps is that even complex ones are pretty simple inside (in build terms at least) compared to the average SS amp and all that entails.



Yeah, I am learning a lot. I just took delivery of a book called "Tube Guitar Amplifier Essentials" by Gerald Weber - I'll let you know if it is any good.



Good tip, thanks hardtail, you obviously know your stuff pretty well

Of course, I'll probably build my own OD pedal (I have a book on the way for that as well) - I guess I am going overboard here, but I am excited about reviving my old hobby of electronics and adding it to my passion for music - a match made in heaven!

Posted by: MickeM Aug 17 2007, 05:13 AM

I'm not too familiar with Fender amp but looked up the Hot Rod Deluxe and it has three channes.
If you're unsure exactly what you're looking for in a tube amp the Hot Rod Deluxe has an advantage as I see it, it has three channels you could experiment with to relly find the sound you're looking for.

Posted by: MickeM Aug 17 2007, 05:39 AM

Oh boy, great sounding, but if you find the skills to manage it it seems like a great project.



Please do! My skills in electronics died after 1989 after I finished the course in the university. I could probably freshen them up again, and learning for building guitar stuff is a lot more fun than to learn for a test
Is that the same Weber that makes speakers and amps in the US? Or maybe just a freak name-coincidence :-)


Keep us updated on that book aswell, building pedals seem fun too. There have been a few seminars here with the music community that have rehearsal rooms for rent but I never attended... so far.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 17 2007, 05:52 AM

Its http://www.buyanalogman.com/product_p/vintage%20effects%20book.htmone - I'll let you know what its like DOn;t think it has any actual designs in it but should have some good info. I may need to get something else for actual designs as well, although like tube amps there are some designs on the net as well

Posted by: tonymiro Aug 17 2007, 06:00 AM

I used to occasionally gig with my Lightening 15 (and of course do the rehearsals). Volume generally was not a problem, on a quick a/b test the lightening could match a 50watt Marshall combo and wasn't far off a Roland JC 120. I only once had problems being heard with a single drummer who was way over the top - but the other guitar player (who btw had a Marshall stack) also had the same problem with the drummer. Bigger venues we PA'd it.

From experience doing PA sound too many guitar players get confused by the idea that they need a guitar amp that does high watts output just because PAs tend to relative to the room size. To many think PA=X watts therefore guitar amp must have to be at least 1/4 of that. People forget that the PA doesn't aim at saturation but clean, transparent, accurate transmission at highish spl.

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Hardtail Aug 17 2007, 11:40 AM

I play at a local church as the regular rhythm guitarist and I have seen TONS of lead guitarists come across our stage. These guys are all semi-pro or retired pro and not one of them has ever brought more power than a Hot Rod Deluxe. I've seen lots of little Traynor's, Carvins, Fenders, Mesa Boogies, etc from these guys and they are all little combo's pushing no more than 40ish watts. Why? cuz we always mic em up and run them through the PA.

What I find really funny is the manufacturers of these amps refer to them usually as "practice amps" yet I'd argue they see more live play time from everyday playing musicians than any half or full stack.

Don't get me wrong massive 100 watt all tube rigs are great (I used to own one) but I refuse to lug around that kind of weight anymore. I LOVE my little 31 pound Junior.

Hardtail

Posted by: JVM Aug 17 2007, 12:23 PM

Right now I just watched a mint vintage 16 go for 311 on ebay, with 16 bids. I think I'm going to end up getting either a blues junior or a hot rod deluxe by the looks of things.

Posted by: Hardtail Aug 17 2007, 12:27 PM

My buddy brought over his Fender Hot Rod Deluxe and I used my Blues junior and we jammed out tonight. TONS of fun. The amps have there own unique flavors but MAN do they both sound sweet. He nails the John Mayor Trio sound almost perfectly and all he used before the amp was a Keeley Blues Driver.

I know you'll be happy if you get one of those. Good luck!

Hardtail

Posted by: JVM Aug 18 2007, 03:52 AM

I'm glad you say so I just got a pretty much new deluxe for 375, so now just to wait for it to arrive

Posted by: MickeM Aug 18 2007, 04:16 AM

Congratulations, that must be a good buy I'm sure!

Posted by: JVM Aug 18 2007, 05:07 AM

The only problem I've heard of is that apparently fender likes to do something with their master volume controls that makes things increase logarithmically rather than linearly, so that "10" only sounds twice as loud as "1", when it should sound 10 times as loud. As a result, and probably a reason that impresses a lot of store players, setting it on 1 is about equivalent to the setting on 5 on most amps, so it is either really loud or not loud enough.

Fortunately theres a way to fix it by just installing a new pot in there and taking out an attenuator fender added, but I don't have any experience with that. I may try to do it myself as its supposed to be a very simple procedure, but I may have it taken to a shop as well. I've never been to a shop for my equipment, where do I go for that kind of thing and how much might it cost me?

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 18 2007, 05:20 AM

Not that I doubt you, but thats pretty much how all amps work - human hearing is logarithmic, so multiplying the power by 10 makes it sound twice as loud - for this reason all volume pots are logarithmic to sompensate for this.

Perhaps it is the other way around - it has a linear pot instead of a log one? That would probably do as you describe, making it sound like the first few stops make a huge difference, then the rest does virtually nothing.

Posted by: JVM Aug 18 2007, 06:08 AM

You're probably right - like I said I don't actually know whats going on in there, just what I read

Posted by: Hardtail Aug 18 2007, 11:33 AM

Actually, Andrew he is right. There is a special exception to the Hot Rod Deluxe that some complain about it either being too quiet or too loud. The volume knob apparently ramps up the volume too fast between 0 and 1. However! only a sissy would need it any quieter than 1 We ran it at around 3 and it sounded fine... gain knobs hovered around middle.

Some interesting tidbits about volume. Your Gain or "Channel" Volume will drive the preamp which will also affect overall volume. Your volume knob will eventually have a point of zero return if your running your gain anywhere around the middle or higher. Example: My Junior with gain set to middle has same volume from 7 or 8 to 12 (yes fenders go to 12). Reason being is because at Mid-Gain and volume 7ish I am maxing out my total volume. Anything more and the amp just won't push any harder anyway.

So all that said... CONGRATULATIONS! You're gonna love it, I'm sure!

Hardtail

Posted by: JVM Aug 18 2007, 11:35 AM

Awesome, I'm sure I will. Thanks hardtail