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GMC Forum > Discussion Boards > VINTAGE GMC > Community Activities and Tutorials > Ask an Instructor > Andrew Cockburn
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Oct 12 2007, 08:51 PM
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Hi there,
The first thing to realize is that scales and keys are different, but 99% of the time they are pretty much the same thing in that the root notes should coincide, as they did in your major scale example. Keys as a concept are heavily Dependant upon the major scale (which is really the basis for most western music even if different scales are in use). When working with the circle of 5ths and key signatures, you need to do it from the perspective of a major scale or you will run into the problems you saw. In fact, while you can have a key of B Major, you can't have a key of B Pentatonic Major. Since Pentatonic Major is a subset of Major, we can just use the Major key signature instead. So the simple rule is that the root note of a scale does equal the key, and this works fine until you start studying modes where things get a little more complicated. Hope this answers your question, if you have any more please ask! -------------------- Check out my Instructor profile
Live long and prosper ... My Stuff: Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 Bass Acoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 Nylon Effects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBlood Amps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab |
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Oct 13 2007, 12:37 AM
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QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 12 2007, 06:40 PM)  so we would also group the minor scale with the minor pentatonic scale as it would be a subset right? Correct! QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 12 2007, 06:40 PM) i will try and work that out. the major is infact a subset so we show this with the key of G major and let that cover both . in other words no need for such thing as a key of G major pentatonic Back to the minor scale . maybe i just need to read more ahead in your lessons but i will just ask. how do we know if the key in question be it A or G what ever is a minor or a major? or is the key of minor scale shown by being in the key of its relative major scale A major scale and its relative minor share exactly the same key signature (because the 2 scales share the same notes). The only difference would be the root note. In your example, B for the Major, G# for the relative minor. Now the question becomes how to you figure out the root note from a piece of music - its mostly experience - you can tell if a piece sounds major or minor and that tells you, although it doesn't actually matter if you are just reading the music, its more important if you want to improvise over a piece. If there are chords, that will give you a clue as well. In your example, if the piece uses G#minor a lot, maybe as the first and last chords that is a big clue (but not conclusive) that it is the relatove minor. QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 12 2007, 06:40 PM) so u could go from Bmajor to B major pentatonic then u could also use its relitive minor (which i dont know yet) and minor pentitonic all in the same key ? Correct! (G# Minor Pentatonic), but one small point, not the same key, the same Key signature. The Key signature is a notational device that gives you the sharps and flats, the key does have a notion of major and minor, so B Major and G# Minor are 2 keys that share the same key signature. QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 12 2007, 06:40 PM) then i could use a major scale look at it put it down on paper. make a key. say its key of B use the B major scale use circle of fifths on it see its key of B Correct! QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 12 2007, 06:40 PM) then know that i can now use B major , B major pentatonic this would also let me know i could switch to its relitive minor and minor pentatonic all in the same key so i guess i am asking now do we write all key signatures directly to be used with the major scale then from that we find its relitves to see the minor ? or is there a key signature or rule that will tell us use key of B minor in stead of saying key of B major then finding the relitive? The key signatures are identical, the keys are B minor and G# minor - the key signature does not differentiate, you have to figure it out on your own. -------------------- Check out my Instructor profile
Live long and prosper ... My Stuff: Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 Bass Acoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 Nylon Effects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBlood Amps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab |
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Oct 13 2007, 02:23 AM
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Correct
 There is a larger reality at work here based on a thing called Modes (which you may have heard of) - the relative minor is really a type of mode, and there are 5 others all of which share the same key signature, but for now I suggest you concentrate on Major and Relative minor until you have that straight and then move onto my modes lessons. -------------------- Check out my Instructor profile
Live long and prosper ... My Stuff: Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 Bass Acoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 Nylon Effects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBlood Amps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab |
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Oct 13 2007, 08:06 PM
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Any time - keep the questions coming - it keeps me on my toes
-------------------- Check out my Instructor profile
Live long and prosper ... My Stuff: Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 Bass Acoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 Nylon Effects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBlood Amps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab |
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Oct 15 2007, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 15 2007, 03:47 PM) well here is another question Andrew. i should have asked B4 but just forgot since we went right into detail on the last question this has to deal with OCTAVE. really i just need you to correct me if im wrong please i will follow with a question ok here goes. 1 octave is equal to 8 tones (12 dagrees or semi tones respected sharps and flats) reason for prefix OCT the 6 sting can play in 2 octaves. when looking at a 6 string guitar if an open string is played say E the 1 octave higer will be found on the 12th fret this E is equal in tone and pitch but is twice the frequancy. so in a sense the guitar starts over again at the 12th fret All correct! QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 15 2007, 03:47 PM) when writen on the staff the first octave or first 12 frets will be ON the staff the second octave will be writen on ledger lines above the staff. Not necessarily - whether or not you use ledger lines isn't governed by what octave you use, its purely down to the pitch of the note. If it is higher than the stave or lower, you just add ledger lines. Where in the scale this occurs will be different in different scales, and has nothing to do with octaves. so there correct me if im wrong please now my question. QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 15 2007, 03:47 PM) if the above is true on the first 12 frets you can find alot of identicle tones and with a high and low E string even more identicle tones. first since all these tones be it E or B or what ever are in the same octave are they completly equal in tone and pitch and frequancy? (like if i played open 5th string A then played second string 10th fret A are they the same?) No, in the example you give there is a 2 octave difference, but if you played an open 5th string and 6th string on the 5th fret, they would be an identical frequency. However, playing the same note in different places on the fret board will give you a slightly different sound in terms of tone rather than frequency and you can use this to good effect depending on they type of sound you are looking for. QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 15 2007, 03:47 PM) and secondly if i were to write those same notes A 5th open and A 2nd 10th fret on a staff would they be located in the same place since they are in same octave? or maybe each string is its own octave? like low E string is botom and works up see my confusion please help thanks As per above, in your example, no they are different notes, in my example they would be written identically on the stave. The octave isn;t related to strings particularly, its purely a function of frequency and steps within the scale. As you step up a string, at some point, you can get the same notes on the next higher string so you use that for a while, then the next one etc. If you do this correctly you can see that the notes keep rising, and everytime you get to the 8th note of the scale you are in a new octave, it is not related to the strings themselves, rather the notes you play on those strings. QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 15 2007, 04:05 PM) wow im way off i found that tab with every note i count 4 octaves each string goes up in pitch so we yes do have multiple equal tones but the example i gave that even i thought was ridiculous is wrong seems since the strings are different pitch we can go up and down both ways. i mean if i want to play up an octave say first e string i go to fret 12 but using the other strings i can duplicate that tone on lower frets making the guitar more versitile and efficent so i guess i answered my own question if you can add some insight on my discovery i would be greatful thanks Looks like you figured it out for yourself, yes that is correct! -------------------- Check out my Instructor profile
Live long and prosper ... My Stuff: Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 Bass Acoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 Nylon Effects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBlood Amps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab |
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Oct 18 2007, 01:26 AM
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Glad I helped!
-------------------- Check out my Instructor profile
Live long and prosper ... My Stuff: Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 Bass Acoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 Nylon Effects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBlood Amps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab |
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