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Posted by: eddiecat Sep 30 2007, 03:52 PM

Hi Muris! Eddie here.
As you know I'm currently practicing your AP lesson which comes smoothly in 8th notes at 80 BPM,
and in 16th notes if I only play the scales up and down in all 5 boxes (without sequences).
The backing track is great because you can practice both major and minor over it and feel the "mood" change,
but here's my problem: everithing is ok as long as I link the boxes starting from the first and from the E strings,
but if I choose, for example, to start from the C on the 13th fret B string, it takes me a while to figure out
to which box shape it belongs to, so I have to go back to the first box...
Do you have any suggestions on how to practice scales now that I have the shapes well in mind?
The explantion and the question are vague, I know, but I hope you understood my point...
Thank you, Eddie

Posted by: muris Sep 30 2007, 07:35 PM

Hi Eddie and thanks for asking,I understand you more than well.
One of my students in private had same problem as well.
That usually comes if you're practicing scales/boxes mainly using muscles
and without thinking too much.
Good way is to sing every note your play,to feel where are semi and whole tones in each scale.
Also,important thing is to figure out scale on each string separately.
Per example,play C scale every string starting with open string and up the fretboard.
Locate important notes,like root C,third E and 5th G.
After a while you'll memorize it with finger moves and sound.
It takes lot of practice so be patience...

Posted by: eddiecat Sep 30 2007, 07:46 PM

Praticing a lot doesn't scare me at all... The thinking does!!!
However, thank you a lot for your, as usual, very helpful advices!
Eddie

Posted by: muris Sep 30 2007, 08:04 PM

You're welcome Eddie!!
Glad you don't mind practicing a lot cause that's all that counts.

Posted by: tonymiro Sep 30 2007, 08:20 PM

+1 for all that Muris said above. A couple of additional things that work for me (though that may just be me) are:

I also play scales as 3 and 4 note per string - and mix these up during a scale. This forces me to stop playing in a box and also I find 4 note per string really helps with stretches.

Away from the guitar try and visualise the fretboard and the scale pattern superimposed on it.

Perhaps more advanced now (but maybe it's never too soon to start ): Complicated one this (and it really does show how poor I am at knowing my scales well) play one scale ascending and when you get to the top note play a different scale descending where the root of the descending scale is the last note of the ascending pattern.

Once you can do this try mixing them together so that you play one note of say Cmajor on 6th string ascending, followed by 1 note of say F major 1st string descending, followed by next of C ascending and next of F descending etc etc. (ie 1st C, 1st F, 2nd C, 2nd F, 3rd C, 3rd F and so on). This involves btw string skipping and awkward movements but, for me, it really makes me concentrate on what the scales are rather than just repeating a pattern:

------13----------12---------10-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------13---------11----------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------etc----------------------------------------
--------------------------------------8----------10--------------------------------------------------------------
--8---------10---------12------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Once you get this down (and this is the bit that I come adrift on) sequence them so its 1Ca, 2Fd, 3Ca, 4Fd, 5Ca, 6Fd (where number equals the note in the scale ie 1= 1st/root, 2=2nd, 3=3rd etc; C/F= the respective scale; a=ascending, F=descending). Again this nvolves string skipping and some pretty awkward fingerings/movements.

You get a pattern something like this (for C ascending and F descending):

1---2----3---- 4-----5-------6---------7-----8-----9----10----11------12------13-----14----15---16---17
(Odd numbers are C ascending sequenced, even F descending sequenced)

-----12---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------12-
-----------------13-------------------------------------------------------------------10-----------13-------------
-------------------------------10-----------------------------------10------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------9---12-----12----8--------------------------------------------------
------------------------10---------------------------------------------------10---------------------------------
-8---------12--------------------------------------------------------------------------------12-----------8------



I really have to think about the respective scales to do this and so can't play it fast at all. I've seen David Torn do this without really seeming to think about what he's doing- he really does know the fretboard and the scales and modes so well that he just plays. There is btw a specific term for this (forgotten what it is at the moment though )

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: eddiecat Sep 30 2007, 08:29 PM

Wow, I still think you should be among the instructors! (C'mon, put that smile on your face!)
As usual, thank you very much, Tony!
Looks a little too advanced, but I will give it a try...
Cheers, Eddie

Posted by: muris Sep 30 2007, 08:29 PM

Brilliant Tony!!

Combining scales/modes in ascending and descending
really helps to memorize and understand everything you play.
This skipping might be too much for Eddie at the moment but worth try it for sure!!


Thanks again Tony!

Posted by: tonymiro Sep 30 2007, 08:42 PM

I'm advancing (most of the time - good days 2 steps forward and one back, not so good days, 2 back and 1 forward Eddie ) rather an advanced guitar player and I struggle with the double sequenced stuff.

But I think Muris is spot on - double scale sequenced runs really force me to think and to try to understand the respective scales. Damned hard though and the string skipping doesn't help - it is really awkward .

But I try (or as my wife tells me I'm very trying .)

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: eddiecat Sep 30 2007, 10:22 PM

Ok, after lots of thinking, I believe I understood Tony's concept of ascending/descending.
I believe that knowing one's limits is a good thing... unfortunately I have to admit that I'm not up to it.
Hope I'll catch up soon, but for now I'll stick to basics.
At least I gave it a try...
But I really have to thank you both for your helpfulness
Cheers, Eddie.

Posted by: tonymiro Sep 30 2007, 11:29 PM

Don't worry Eddie -

I can't do it well either. Only person I've ever seen do it was Dave Torn and he is a phenomenal guitar player. (I'd imagine though that Muris can do it though ). As with everything it takes practice and I think the main thing is that you are practicing and also willing to give things a try .

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: eddiecat Oct 1 2007, 01:30 AM

As with everything it takes practice and I think the main thing is that you are practicing and also willing to give things a try .

Cheers,
Tony
[/quote]

I am practicing a lot...
Wallimann already agreed to do a few lessons on the 4 basic scales,
but it goes without saying, Muris, that lessons on these scales
by you would be more than appreciated!
I know I'm a buggar always asking for these basic things,
I know you might find them boring,
but it seems to me that they are VERY important...
Back to scales (doing my best to think)... Eddie


P.S.: BTW, I went back to my C on 13th fret B string, and the semitone between 3rd minor and 3rd major
made me figure out much faster where I was! Thanx!!!

Posted by: muris Oct 1 2007, 02:33 AM

No worries,it's not boring at all
I'll make more of these basic lessons as soon as possible.

Posted by: eddiecat Oct 1 2007, 08:05 PM

Hi Muris, you were right.
I think I can say that I know the 5 boxes by heart as well as your 3 nps two boxes,
I could easily draw them on paper without having a guitar in my hands,
but the tip you gave me on playing single string scales is taking me beyond.
It really makes me think about single notes, tones and semi tones.
Thanks, Maestro

Eddie

Posted by: tonymiro Oct 1 2007, 08:14 PM

Good one Eddie,

I also find 3 and 4 nps a good way of not playing in boxes.

Sounds like the woodshedding for you is really paying off .

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: eddiecat Oct 1 2007, 09:52 PM

Hey Tony!
Well, I guess it really is paying off!
If I think where I was at 2 months ago, when I started... I'm far from being somewhere now,
but it feels great to just sit down, grab the guitar and feel that I'm improving somehow...
I'm also resisting the temptation of diving into other video lessons,
because I'm the kind of person who loaths doing things he doesn't understand!
Copying out words is not as rewarding as learning the alphabet to write down your own.
Does it make sense?
Besides, I'm not good enough.
I will start doing 3 and 4 nps as soon as I've learnt my scales well...
Cheers,
Eddie


EDIT: I just saw Muris' lesson on legato for beginners, beautiful!!!
I'm definetly going to use it for my scale studies! Great Muris!
Cheers

Posted by: muris Oct 1 2007, 10:32 PM

Glad you like it Eddie,thanks!

There are movements into more than just one box and more then 3nps.
Explore it and try to combine with the things you do already.

Posted by: eddiecat Oct 2 2007, 12:02 AM

Hi Muris!
I decided I'll start "exploring" your legato lesson on monday, maybe.
Till then I want to stick to your AP lesson, boxes and scales on one string, as you advised me to do.
But in the meantime could you please tell me what the advantage of 3 or 4 nps scales is?
Are they more useful to fretboard comprehension?
And is it something you would recommend me at this stage? (please say no )
Thank you, Eddie

Posted by: muris Oct 2 2007, 12:38 AM

Everything we practice helps us to figure out fretboard more and more.
3nps are often shapes cause we don't have to move around a lot,everything stays in one position,box.
3,4 or more nps are NOT scales,that's just the way how WE play specific scale.
Scale(diatonic) contains 7 notes and it's up to us how we gonna do it,on one string or on 6 of them.
What to recommend?
Tell me I'm repeating myself,practice.

If you want I'll make a lesson that involves scale on each string separately.

Posted by: eddiecat Oct 2 2007, 01:02 AM

[quote name='muris' post='68708' date='Oct 2 2007, 01:38 AM']
Everything we practice helps us to figure out fretboard more and more.
3nps are often shapes cause we don't have to move around a lot,everything stays in one position,box.
3,4 or more nps are NOT scales,that's just the way how WE play specific scale.



Ooops, sorry, I meant 3 or 4 nps scale shapes. Forgot to put "shape"
So with these we get more result with less effort=we don't have to move too much around.
Muris, any lesson which you think might be helpful is more than appreciated!
Hope all the shredders out there won't be mad at me

Bye, Eddie

Posted by: muris Oct 2 2007, 02:39 AM

No worries Eddie,there are many fast stuff lessons already at GMC
so I guess few easier topics will not be the problem.

Posted by: eddiecat Oct 2 2007, 03:40 AM

Great, Muris!
Hopefully in two weeks or so I'll be able to record something.
I'm a bit tired now... Time for a film!
Thank you so very much for all your help, invaluable.
I'll get back to you next week, I've got a lot to practice till then (with my new metronome).
Cheers, (your fan ) Eddie

Posted by: muris Oct 2 2007, 06:58 AM

Have a great time with movie Eddie and stop by to ask anytime!!

Posted by: eddiecat Oct 8 2007, 02:15 AM

Hi Muris!
I did 4 days of just practicing scales to a metronome. I don't know how much it helped, but my AP and fingering have definitely improved. Still have problems remembering the notes, but I hope it will get better in time.
This week I'll start trying to play freely on your AP backing track to see if I can come up with something nice
and I'll do the same on Wallimann's tracks (minor and major pentatonic lessons).
If something acceptable comes out I'll try to record it.
BTW, while practicing I also "discovered" things like bends and tremolo...
That put a smile on my face for the whole day
Cheers, Eddie

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Oct 8 2007, 02:18 AM

Hey Eddie, thats the great thing about practicing scales, its not just about memorising notes, you get in a lot of other types of practice too as you have discovered

Posted by: muris Oct 8 2007, 05:10 AM

That's great Eddie!!

You see,great thing about guitar is that you have the same shapes and boxes for each scale in same group.
With group I think of minor scales,major scales etc.
So memorizing only one will help you A LOT with figuring out rest of them.
That's the spot when dots over fingerboard are of great use.
Just keep up the great work and please keep me updated!!

p.s. would love to see your playing via video clip,
just to have better view over whole situation...

Posted by: eddiecat Oct 11 2007, 01:36 AM

Just an update:
Still working hard on the 4 basic scales...
Your mixolydian lesson is a great temptation,
but I know I still have a lot of work
to do on my beloved basic scales.
I'll dive into mixolydian as soon as I feel ready (could take several months, I believe )
BTW, my legato is also improving.
Cheers, and thanks for your helpfulness,
Eddie

Posted by: muris Oct 13 2007, 01:21 AM

Thanks for update Eddie.

You'll see,modes like mixolydian etc are just sort of mirrored look of basic scales like major or minor.
Just notice different between them,which is usually only one note,and you'll have lot of fun with it.

Posted by: eddiecat Oct 19 2007, 06:48 PM

Hi Muris! Hope all is well!
This is just to tell you that if I don't log in very often lately
it's because by now I have a "fixed" practicing routine
and enough video lessons to study.
All the questions I had concerning this topic have already been answered,
and I don't want to add too many notions at once!
So now it's just a question of practicing and practicing and practicing
However I'm now the proud owner of a third-hand line 6 pod (bean-shaped),
of a Tascam US-122 audio/MIDI interface and of a crappy laptop
running Cubase with different VSTs'.
I'd like to start recording something for you, so you can hear my progress
in the last few months. Are there any downloadable backing tracks
or do you think I should start trying to do my own?
However my scale practicing is doing fine, even though, as you can imagine,
problems always pop-up! I'm getting a bit faster with my AP,
but I'm not aiming at speed, my main concern is to hit clean and clear notes.
My bending and my legato seem to come quite natural, don't know why.
Ok, that's it for today... Sorry for the long post.
Back to scales!
Good to know you're out there!
Eddie

Posted by: muris Oct 19 2007, 10:51 PM

Hi Eddie and I'm glad you're doing fine with lot of practicing lately!!

About backing tracks,there are probably some sites where you could download some
but I haven't done that before so I don't know the addresses...
And you could start making one on your own,why not.
Cubase and VSTs that come along with it is more than enough to make one.
Haven't seen Tascam you mentioned but I believe it's fine audio card card for you now.
Keep me updated of your recording progress and if you have any questions about that,please ask,
perhaps in sub-forum recordings?
Take care

Muris

Posted by: eddiecat Nov 2 2007, 05:23 PM

Hi Muris.
I came back to this thread today to ask you if you think that I've been practising alright.
I mean, listening to my Emin upload, would you say I've improved in these first three months?
Is the sound ok, are my bendings ok and so on...?
I know I used few notes, but I wanted to concentrate on other things,
and my scales knowledge is still poor. I start thinking of notes but then I fall back into box-thinking.
I guess this takes time...
Any suggestions and/or opinions?

As usual, a huge thank you.
Eddie

Posted by: muris Nov 2 2007, 08:33 PM

Well,it's hard to put all your knowledge and technical abilities into one single tune or track.
So it's hard for me to say have you improved lately.
But the track was played really nice,with taste etc.
You used one scale which is more than enough for this time.
As a suggestion, you could take place in my collab "In Style Of You".
It's in key of A but none specific A,could be minor,mixolydian,dorian,harmonic minor etc .
Perhaps you could try your scale knowledge there??

Posted by: eddiecat Nov 2 2007, 08:49 PM

Yeah, I will try that one out, but I won't go beyond my beloved basic scales...
Can I download the backing track?!
But I just asked you because three months ago I didn't even know the notes of open strings!
Never touched a guitar before, let alone play one. I was a PURE beginner.
That's why I asked...
Have a nice day, Eddie

Posted by: muris Nov 2 2007, 09:05 PM

Sure,download track and play over it.
Then just upload both with and without BT starting from the same point
as BT I provided,that's all.

Posted by: eddiecat Dec 8 2007, 11:55 AM

If you want I'll make a lesson that involves scale on each string separately.
[/quote]


YES, YES, YES!
Please give me some Christmas homework!!!!
Now I feel ready for this lesson...
I promise I won't ask you for other lessons,
but please consider doing this single string lesson.
And it would be great if you structured it like you AP lesson:
first half major and second half minor.
It would help me a lot to stop thinking in boxes!
I wish you all the best.
Cheers, Eddie

Posted by: Muris Dec 8 2007, 01:11 PM

No worries Eddie,scales on one string,full alternate,you got it

Posted by: eddiecat Dec 8 2007, 01:29 PM

You're amazing! You always reply in such a short time!
All I can do is thank you...
Bye

Posted by: Muris Dec 8 2007, 01:30 PM

You're welcome Eddie

If am logged in,reply is fast as lightning

Posted by: eddiecat Dec 21 2007, 02:33 PM

Just to thank you for your one string Ionian workout!
I'm starting to have so much material to work on during
these winter holidays! And that Bmajor lesson is still haunting me!!!
Just as a reminder: it would really be lovely
to have the same exercise in Aeolian too! Don't you think?
Anyway, thanks a lot and have a great time!

Cheers

Eddie

Posted by: Muris Dec 21 2007, 05:41 PM

No worries Eddie,will have Aoelian on my mind as well

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 26 2008, 09:40 AM

Hi Muris! Good morning, I can see you're there!
Just to tell you that now I'm starting to see 7 basic scales, and not just 2 (not counting pentas)!
Yes, I'm talking about the modes...
So could you please edit the title of the thread to 7 basic scales?
I'm asking you this because I'm always afraid of forgetting
useful answers and the less threads I start
the less likely it is for me to forget where a certain topic is discussed.
Today I plan on practicing modes in 3nps...

Thank you, and have a nice day!

Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 26 2008, 12:53 PM

Done

Now we're on 7,next week it'll be 14 etc,great job Eddie!

Posted by: eddiecat Apr 11 2008, 09:14 AM

Hi Muris, how are you doing? I hope all is well and that you're enjoying your life.
I'm practicing hard and now I think I can say I can play all the 7 major modes
on the whole fretboard in 2 and 3nps shapes, but always and only starting from the root note I choose.
Do you have any tips on how to break free from this "root note slavery" I'm in?
Hope you understand my point.

All the best, Eddie.

Posted by: eddiecat Apr 12 2008, 09:20 AM

I know you are very busy at the moment but...
no tips? (see my previous post)

Eddie

Posted by: Muris Varajic Apr 12 2008, 04:01 PM

Sorry for waiting Eddie!

This issue usually comes when you are practicing scales just like scales,
I had same problem years ago tho.

Main idea is to play bunch of solos and licks using different scales modes.
It can be your own work or material by other guitarists,doesn't matter.
That way you'll be more free to start not only from root as those
lick and solos are starting from different degrees.

But you can do similar exercise by yourself as well.
Take some scale or mode per example,one position and start playing it
using all strings as a starting point,not only low E which is most common I guess.
Then change positions and do the same using different strings to start,through all 7 position.
Incorporate that into every scale you're practicing!

Keep me updated on this!

Posted by: eddiecat Jun 6 2008, 06:11 AM

Hi Muris, long time not seen! But I have so much to practice...
Thank you so much for your advice, now my mode knowledge is much better.
I now have 7 BTs for the 7 modes and what I do is I loop the BT of the mode I want to practice
and just improvise over it and know what? Now I don't always start from the root note!
The only thing I do is I visualize where the root notes are before I start
and then I "think" in terms of degrees.
That's all good I guess, but one thing bothers me:
my comfortable speed is stuck at 16th notes at 100 bpms'. Really frustrating...
Any hints?

Thank you and good luck for London!
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jun 6 2008, 12:37 PM

Hi Eddie,it's always good to hear from you!

You did good job with looping backings,
easy to practice and I'm very glad you hear
that you're not starting only from root now,
visualizing fretboard and locating root is a smart way,
well done Eddie!

About speed,well,not sure if I can share some
words of wisdom here,it'll come with the time,
just practice,speed is all about practicing.

Ohh,and thanks for your warm wishes for London Eddie,
well appreciated!!!

Posted by: eddiecat Jun 10 2008, 06:20 PM

Hi Muris, everything alright? Getting ready for the big day?
My question is not exactly about modes, but it came up while practicing them:
whatever mode I'm practicing, there will always be the 3 minor mode shapes, let me explain.
If I'm playing a C Ionian, there will also be within the D dorian, E phrygian and A aeolian shapes,
and over those shapes their respective minor pentatonic shapes will work.
So is it correct to say that there always are three different minor pentatonics within a mode?
I mean, if I play Cmaj pentatonic 2nd shape starting from D it sounds good,
but also if I start Dmin pentatonic 1st shape starting from D it sounds good!
I found that combining the two gives me some nice melodic ideas...
Am I wrong? Is there something I don't get?

I hope it's clear enough...

Eddie

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jun 10 2008, 06:47 PM

Absolutely right Eddie,there are always 3 pentatonic scales
inside regular modes,or 3 major pentatonics if you try with relative majors,same notes.

Posted by: eddiecat Jun 10 2008, 08:29 PM

Thank you Muris!
I'm damn glad I heard it right!
Just to let you know that I'm having a lot of fun with this new discovery!
Still stuck with understanding and hearing extended chords!
Thank you... Eddie

Posted by: Oxac Jun 10 2008, 10:09 PM

Regarding that there's a total of 3 minor and 3 major pentatonic boxes in a regular church scale. I believe that Muris made a lesson on this (pentatonic substitution) or something. Check it out, it's a killer.

Posted by: eddiecat Jun 11 2008, 06:02 AM

Thank you Oxac...
Yes, I know what lesson you're talking about, (I skipped it immediately because it's far too difficult)
but I never understood what it meant until now!
And I'm really glad I found out without anyone telling me!
Ciao

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jun 11 2008, 10:24 AM

One thing Eddie,that lesson is not pure example
about what we were talking about.
Chords are changing and I'm following each of them
with proper pentatonic scale.
What we were talking about is use of 3 pentas over same chord,root chord per example.
Lets say we're in key of Am and Am chord is playing all the time,
that means we can use A,D and E minor pentatonics.
But if we are in A Dorian with Am chord playing as well,
then we have A,B and E minor pentatonics as options.
Try all this and more using all modes.

Thank for hint Oxac,I almost forgot about that lesson.